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For me, this is today.

prims startgame

doesn't mean the BPV claim was scummy At worst it's Refa not thinking of all the outcomes properly. Him claiming doesn't mean others have to do so either (and they didn't). We left Prims alive because if he dayvigged him then without a Vanilla/Snoop/BPV massclaims, we wouldn't have had a guaranteed shot to hit non-BPV with for our nightkill. I thought it was better to save the dayvig in that case for D2 after we could guarantee a safe shot.

I really don't think that was a scumslip.

Only because town forced multiple people to claim and people started throwing around the idea of vanilla claiming for a clear.

Prims, why would you lynch Poly when you thought I was scum and it made no sense for us to be buddies? Or even prompt a massclaim when the only chance town had at winning after a mislynch was for scum to hit a BPV with one of their shots? I also legit didn't think I was playing more for survival than scumhunting after the first few hours (where I admit I was too defensive), but shrug. @Baldrick- Giving reasons for townreads do matter though; that's not something I was BSing because I was scum.

He's like the only person who can fight Ashnard in the first place, other than Nasir/Ena, who are pretty bad. Giving him +points for that is almost like 1-P Edward.

This is Poly's first post. He gives townreads on Eury and Refa here without explaining them. Saying I told him to give reasons for his reads before he even gave any reads is incorrect. You "clarified" what you found good about his reaction and what you didn't, except you said the same thing was both good and bad. Him being jumpy in response to my vote is his reaction to the vote. You can't say "he reacted well to the vote in his counterargument but then didn't as well since he was jumpy". You can't separate it like that. Except you voted Eury for her style. If you don't expect her to change it after two posts, then why did you vote for her in the first place? What was the motive in doing so? You say you've ascertained enough that you can now conclude she should have reads later on in the game, but you're forgetting that this is a short game capable of ending, like, today. And her being talkative just means that she has time to devote to thinking about the game and posting in the thread. It doesn't mean she can't be lost in terms of actually finding reads and deciding who's scummy, at any point in the game- it's her first game after all. The logic that you're espousing here seems like an easy way to be able to jump to a vote to her at any point on grounds of "hey she's talkative but she doesn't have reads, lynch lynch lynch". Also, I did, in fact, try to correct Eury almost as soon as she started talking about Prims possibly being scum. She started expressing some suspicion about him in #78/80. #81 was a question to Prims, but #82/84 were towards her suspicion of Prims (don't you know that he pushes turbolynches a lot/do you think he's lying about being Deputy). It's all within like twenty minutes of her posting, in any case, whereas there was a lot more time between SB unvoting me and you voting me. I didn't say you should clear someone based on them being pushed by someone you find scum, but in a game where there's the possibility of us losing after only one mislynch, you can't really afford to not think about whether or not your top two reads make sense as scumbuddies. Maybe my discussion regarding #2 could have taken less posts. But that doesn't mean any of it was filler- it just means that I said over two or three one-line posts what I could have said in one three-line post. That just makes me Manix- it's not a scumtell. fuck it tired of waiting around for Poly while he watches Fairy Tail or some other shit anime ##Unvote, ##Vote: Baldrick I'll provide a summary if necessary in the evening.

Basically I don't like Poly's reasons for treating Eury as a townread. They seem contradictory. And his logic wrt to both me and Prims is all over the place and goes into a bunch of levels of WIFOM like appearing super scummy on purpose so as to make people think he's too scummy to be scum or something. That's not exactly scummy by itself but it feels odd that he's so conflicted about both me and Prims and yet so sure about Eury being town as to defend her several times. Refa makes a good point about Baldrick. I was considering previously just the discrepancy in finding Eury scummy for being cautious and analytic and then unvoting her later while those things still held true, but he reminded me that the foundation for Baldrick's vote (that being cautious and analytic is scummy) is flawed itself. However, Refa, you didn't really say anything directly about Poly in that last post (just indirectly, saying that my reasons for prodding him made sense). Why is he so high up in that list?

Also, I want to see how Poly's logic will change, if any, now that if his buddy is SB or Baldrick, they've had the opportunity to give him advice on what to do. His logic yesterday was just really bad and all over the place and he was taking both sides of everything except Eury.

Vote switches have to be judged against both the original vote and the original read on the person now being voted. Can't really say anything about the reaction to Shinori. My discussion regarding Prims being Sniper wasn't useless. Not everything has to derive a scumread. I was trying to correct Poly and Eury's logic. I don't understand the third point. What do you mean by earlier behaviour? Can you clarify that? And what does being prejudiced even mean? Already responded to the fact that I didn't misrep Poly's read on Eury. I don't understand what "If they start being unhelpful when they have a read it sticks out more than if they were never helpful. " means either. Another thing- Poly talking about claiming is a reaction to the pressure and vote against him. You can't say that his reaction to the vote against him was good and then say that him talking about claiming is scummy. Also, Baldrick's initial reason for voting Eury was that she was being too cautious and analytic, and that this was more reminiscent of newbscum than newbtown. Yet she hasn't stopped being cautious and analytic. The only scumread she's offered was, as she herself admitted, not very strong, and she didn't even vote SB for it. So what's the reason for the switch to me? It can't be that I was no longer at L-2, because in that case he would have voted for me in one of the two posts he made in between SB's unvote and his vote. The reasons he just outlined in his summary all applied at that point as well, so it's not like I became scummier in the meantime either. @Prims- idk. It's a combination of me being lazy, not really having a better option for a while, and Poly not really posting afterwards, though I'm considering switching to Baldrick. I don't really like his case against me (though bias so whatever). But I don't see the reasons for switching to me, and I don't like the Poly case because it's contradictory and because calling him maybe his second strongest scumread when I'm his strongest is suspicious. Yeah you can be suspicious of two wagons at once, but not unless he thinks there is a possibility I'm bussing Poly atm. His attitude towards Eury is also really weird and seems way too nice to be directed at someone you think is scum.

I still don't Baldrick's suspicion against me at all.

How can you tell if someone is willing to co-operate if they're not giving reads in the present? Saying that they're biding their time before giving a read isn't a promise that they will actually give a read at any point.

I didn't find either person who toyed with Prims being Sniper scummy for that reason specifically because they're both new and I saw it more as not having the experience to see the logic behind him being town, regardless of what their alignment might be. At this point the wagon hop thing is just you disagreeing with me about what is scummy and what isn't. Let's say I'm scum and Refa is town. I've stated somewhat of a townread on Refa. If a wagon on him was to start (let's assume the reasons for it don't suck or me switching to him is scummy either way), I still have to compare the reasons for finding him scum to the ones I've outlined for him being town. For my vote switch to him to not look super scummy, I have to show how the reasons for him being scum outweigh those previous things I stated about him being town. Now if I'd just said that I had somewhat of a townread on Refa but didn't say why at all, I can just ascribe whatever shitty reason to my earlier townread on him I want to, and it becomes much easier to show how the reasons for him being scum outweigh my previous reasons for finding him town, and then the wagon hop doesn't look nearly as bad. Generally if you're sympathetic to someone, you can understand possible town intent behind what they're doing and are less likely to vote them for it even if you can also find scum intent there. I don't understand why her thought process would produce sympathy if you think she's scum.

I'm not gunning for Prims. He's basically confirmed town.

Once the game starts, are we allowed to claim which character we picked?

Again, considering I kept saying "why do you think Prims is scum if he's claiming Sniper", I don't understand how I was stoking a Prims suspicion. In #103, Poly is like "newbscum are much more easy to spot due to their unwillingness to give reads". This implies that Eury is newbtown instead because she is willing to give reads, except she wasn't giving any reads. Also, explaining townreads is important. It's way easier to hop on someone's wagon if you haven't explained your townread on them before than if you have. If you haven't you can just say "hey I changed my mind" whereas if you have you have to go into way more detail. As for the 84/95 thing that you're asking Eury- I don't see the contradiction there. I asked first "do you think he's lying?" and then when she said "he might be", I said "but it makes no sense for him to lie because so and so". wrt to Refa, I think he's town based on reaction but the point about him being town based off agreeing to the BPV massclaim is a bad one because if the scum BPV doesn't claim BPV, then the two townies who do claim BPV get cleared, and then the mafia can't even kill them because they're BPV. Whereas if you agree to the plan, you at least are told exactly who the BPVs are and you only need one ML anyways if both vigshots hit non-BPV town. Baldrick's tone to Eury is sort of weird considering he's voting for her?

I'm asking questions as part of my scumhunting; it's not like my questions are not trying to progress the game. Also, I repeat, I don't care that Poly (or Eury) has no scumreads. That's not the point of my vote. The point is that if you are going to give reads, they should at least be for logical reasons. It's also incorrect that I was pushing Poly for only one post without reasons. He first posted in #83 with some reads with no reasons behind them. I asked him in 86# to give reasons for the reads, and he replied back in #87 but sort of dodged the question because he answered with saying that it was difficult to get reads when that wasn't the point. I responded back in #90 telling him again to give reasons, and then in #91 he just gave more reads without reasons. So that was twice I prodded him before I voted him in #93 for it. Then he finally gave reasons in #94. Also how the fuck was I guiding anyone to a Prims suspicion? I said like twice that it makes no sense for Prims to be scum, and not just to Poly. I was asking them if they thought Prims was lying if they were suspicious of him. I don't understand where I was delving into minutiae about Eury either. This is literally what I said directly about my read on Eury- that I don't mind that she has no reads atm. Anything else I said was indirect because Poly was going like "oh she is cooperating with town by giving reads", and I was refuting that statement. And nor was anything related to Prims in any way part of my vote for Poly. Where did I ever say or imply that it was? Baldrick also says that my case on Poly is logical, but then starts dissecting it and saying it's scummy in the same sentence. Then in the next paragraph he talks about how Poly might be his deputy scumread. That makes no sense to me, especially as the only thing that he points out as scummy about Poly (his jumpiness about claiming) is also part of my case. And considering the jumpiness is a reaction, if that's what Baldrick finds scummy, how is Poly reacting well under pressure?

No, I wasn't able to get a read on Shinori off the two RVS posts he made. Why is it relevant? Why would anyone turbo you this early? I don't think that Prims was serious even about my turbolynch, or he would have answered my question. Seems kind of jumpy idk.

Again, I don't mind so much that she's being cautious or that she doesn't have that many reads yet. It's her first game; I'm willing to cut her some slack. But if she's not giving reads, then how can you tell she's making the effort to do so? It doesn't take a lot of effort to say that you have no real reads and are sort of unsure about what's going on. It's like 5 hours into the phase and I'm the only person who's legitimately suspicious of you. Why would you have to claim soon?

I'm not as suspicious of the fact that you don't have that many reads yet as I am of Poly saying you do and then saying it's okay you don't.

1) But Prims is right in that Eury hasn't really given reads on anyone. When I pressured her to say something about me or Prims she just backed away and said she'd like some time and more information before she committed to anything. 2) This contradicts 1). You say she's being willing in giving her reads away there, but here you say it's perfectly okay for her to have no real scumreads yet. I don't really get the logic behind this read at all. I don't like how he had to be prodded several times to give more reasons for his reads, did so only after someone voted for him, and then gave shitty reasons to back them up afterwards.

Sorry for not wanting confirmed town to find me scummy? There's also not that much else to say or do while SB and Baldrick are asleep or at class or whatever. Refa should state an opinion on me though. IIRC he was around when Prims voted me and didn't really say much about it.

I don't think I'm talking about nothing but BIAS. Also nothing you've said so far about why I'm scummy has been to do with a reaction- me being self-conscious scum or whatever as you claim wasn't really a reaction to anyone pressuring me. How am I being reactive? Nobody plays scummy on purpose as scum; that's terrible strategy. And the Deputy doesn't have to claim to shoot him, so it doesn't achieve anything at all. Prims, what are your opinions on Poly?

Shooting someone as Sniper and then claiming Deputy is just asking the real Deputy to shoot him. I don't see the scum motive in that when in that case you'd know the Deputy's still got their shot left.