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my shower wasn't really that long; I got caught up watching the Raptors-Warriors and then was playing Kingdom Hearts. KH3DS is confusing af for a first-timer like me. my thoughts on Shinori- his posts have been better but I still feel like he's focusing on a small portion of Crysta's play and dismissing large portions. I don't really see how he can dismiss several wallposts on her part as "not having much merit" and focus mostly on the TG interactions. What about the stuff Crysta has said about other people? wrt his TG read- I have problems with TG but again it's not really to do with those Crysta interactions specifically; it's moreso her play as a whole being lacking. Shinori just seems so tunnel-vision on those TG-Crysta interactions and I don't get it. Shinori, do you really think TG and Crysta are scumbuddies? I guess I'd reorder things to be Mancer > TG > Shinori. It looks like it's going to be a TG lynch at deadline because people are letting Mancer go/not prioritizing him because he's lurking. >_> TG should claim to avoid a situation like yesterday. @crysta- wrt the mancer-null thing, did you miss his explanation in #229? Also I don't think TG townreading you is why he's scumreading you, that seems more like a reason for scumreading her.

one last thing- I don't understand what kind of "fiasco" you're seeing between TG and Crysta, Shinori. Crysta is scumreading TG and TG is townreading Crysta. Going to think more about Shinori in the shower.

I'm a little suspicious of Gaius but not for the reasons that Omega stated. Unfortunately he's not here anymore. x_x TG's posts are kind of lacking in content, but she's also new so it's difficult to be sure. I just realized that apparently I didn't post my entire thought about her above- what I meant to say in @224 is that her posts don't have any conviction and I don't see any attempt to pressure people or find someone other than Mancer to vote. cut by Boron's case; it's good. I could get behind that for a lynch at the end of the day. Your post prompted me to skim Crysta's posts again. I guess you're right that she should be voting for Mancer- she says it too, but then says she's going to keep her vote on TG for now. Nobody thought that Crysta's sheep was good- not just Eclipse; I pointed it out right after as well. I just don't think it was as egregious as Mancer's sheep because she had mentioned TG before. Also, I reread her D1 posts after she said that and I thought the wallpost was okay enough that I wasn't going to vote her just for that. Her explanation for the sheep also seemed valid. Shinori, do you think Crysta and TG are buddies? Crysta, explain again why you're voting TG and not Mancer? If they both need to produce content and you're leaning Mancer, why TG over Mancer? anyways I haven't taken a shower in like 2 days. All you people who say that you have no time for mafia, remember that you do. All you have to do is sacrifice personal hygiene. bbl

okay on the Mancer thing. I don't see your logic about Refa because if he isn't a dumb player* why would he do something so rash as scum? But I feel like I've beaten this horse enough and Refa isn't even alive anymore. I want to see more of your thoughts on other people. Who is the most scummy player itt? *clearly the answer to this entire conundrum is that Refa is a dumb player

Why are you trying to justify Crysta's sheep as scummy but Mancer's as simply "terrible but null"? And Crysta unlike Mancer actually has a lot of posts and stuff she's said; what about everything else other than the sheep onto TG?

@eclipse- I don't think Mancer, or anybody, is an ITP. The numbers are too difficult in a 13p game; 9/3/1 sucks for town (possibility of D2 potential MYLO if the ITP has a kill) and 10/2/1 sucks for scum (possible for town to win N1/D2). 10/3 is just way easier to balance. I'm questioning everything you say because you feel like Clarinets D1, but with more content. That is, I feel like you're town but it's not just that I disagree with what you're saying, what you're saying/doing doesn't make sense. It's like we're reading a completely different game. Boron barely spoke about Refa killspec. Then you were like "Boron had shitty content until my time 9:30" but the posts she made between that and your previous post saying her lack of content was worrying you were barely anything; less than her previous content in fact. And a 3p masonry in a 13p game? Also, my top two scumreads, Mancer and Shinori, are inactive. I don't think Mancer and Shinori are both scum though; I doubt there are two scum in one trinity. So I'm maybe questioning more and casing less than I often do because I'm trying to pressure the more active people but I don't actually think any of them are very scummy atm. Elie's post looks okay at a skim I guess, in that I can see his logic and thought process, but I'm not sure I agree with the conclusions? Elie, why does Eclipse hard-defend Mancer D1? The point of scum white-knighting town is for them to look better after the town guy flips, not for them to actually stop that lynch. My opinion on Omega is I guess kind of the opposite as my opinion on Elie- I agree with his overall conclusions on Mancer and kind of Gaius but not sure if I see his logic. Particularly wrt Gaius-Mancer interactions- what I found most suspicious was that Gaius had no real opinion on Mancer, who's kind of a hot topic. After looking more at Gaius's posts I don't think he really defended Mancer as Omega is claiming. It bugs me a little that he kind of just ignored the Crysta and me saying this though. TG- if Shinori isn't scummy yet, who is? Your reads don't have any conviction to them and I don't see fwiw I also don't get the difference between "suspicious" and "scummy"; I use them practically interchangeably (goes towards both Boron and TG). If I find enough things people did that are suspicious, they become suspicious people and if they're suspicious people then I'm scumreading them/they're scummy.

One thing I just realized about why I don't like Shinori's posts in this game- when putting out suspicions he's taking one action they did and saying it's scummy, and then not bothering to look at the rest of that person's posts. His Refa vote was literally based only off one line in one post that Refa made, even though Refa had a lot of other content to look at too. It's the same to a lesser extent with the Crysta bit, although to a lesser extent because he didn't vote her. ok bye now

whoops I was making a post last night and then we started putting up our christmas tree and then I fell asleep mid-post gg @eclipse- If there's this special use of your trinity power that only you saw, it's possible that SB didn't either. Also, why talk about Boron as if Refa killspec is all she did? She used that as a springboard but it's a little disingenuous to ask her if she "has anything else". And I went through your posts and I can't find a question addressed to me. Can you quote it? crysta brings up a good point about Gaius's Mancer read actually; I'd kind of misremembered Gaius's posts. Gaius's stance on Mancer is not so much a townread as a neutral read. I kind of dislike that for another reason, because I want Gaius to take a stance on Mancer, who was a top scumread of the thread, (guess he won't if he's subbing out). But regardless scumreading someone for having a bad case =/= townreading the person being cased. So yeah I would also like the quotes from Omega. The whole "scum!Shinori wouldn't have killed Refa" thing is a bad line of thinking because a) Shinori hadn't gotten good attention for his Refa case, so it provides him with an out, and b) Even if Shinori didn't want an out, there are probably two other people on the scumteam, and they might have wanted Refa dead more than Shinori wanted him alive. Shinori, what? How does "something that neither scum nor town would do" equate to "scum trying to do it for townie points"? How would it get Refa townie points if it's a null action? Barely any of those posts are reads either. Come on. >_> Why is Crysta's sheepvote worse than Mancer's? @TG- What do you mean by "you want Mancer to have a chance"? Votes aren't forever; if Mancer comes back and starts posting Grade A+ content; I'll switch away. anyways gotta go buy MORE ORNAMENTS, will be back later

idk after thinking about it eclipse probably isn't scum just bc I can't see her defending someone so hard if she didn't believe it, but her actions have just been frustrating. Also I think she's just wrong about her trinity power. going to look at the last page of posts more closely

Hey guys sorry i woke up super late so i didnt have time to post in the morning and now im out for dinner with my fam so I'll post more comprehensive later but eclipse do you srsly think sb would have a 3p pseudomasonry in a 13p game? Also earlier you were like 'i wont vote mancer YET' and now it's like 'it would be insane for mancer to be scum'? Also you were suspicious of clarinets partially for role reasons, can you reveal those now?

eh, I was rereading Crysta and tbf she mentioned not being impressed by TG in her wall post and then wanting to poke more at her in her last post yesterday, so I can see the thought process behind thinking it was a good enough vote to automatically sheep. Crysta, what is your opinion on Gaius? I don't think he was in your wallpost. @SB- Tiny Goddess ISO link doesn't work; her name is listed as just "Tiny" rather than "Tiny Goddess". Also can you update the OP with who's subbed in?

##Vote: Mancer I don't know what power Eclipse/Mancer's trinity has, but I don't buy the idea that everybody in that trinity is confirmed town. 3 players confirmed town in a 13p game would be way too townsided. I can't believe that SB would make a trinity where it was so easy to confirm the players as town. His Tiny Goddess vote is a sheep and hypocritical to boot. I know Mancer was sick but he has no content on anybody except Clarinets, so him voting other people for lacking content sure is a thing. Boron's vote on Tiny Goddess is a good one to try and get her to produce more content, and the bit about only dropping in to answer a question is a good point I didn't catch. However, I don't like the sheeping onto the wagon by Crysta and Mancer, because the vote isn't, like, THAT good. Tiny Goddess is hardly the only one lacking content; the main thing indicative of scum intent is only the last part about selective content. It kind of just seems like "oh I have nothing to say I might as well sheep the most recent case". @Boron- Do you still think Roxas is scummy? @Omega- Good point about Gaius, but again, he wasn't the only one townreading Mancer. So was Tiny Goddess, iirc. Is she scum too? And is Mancer town? I want to see more from Shinori now that both of the people he was scumreading have flipped town. I really didn't like the Refa vote.

It seems like a Clarinets lynch is happening. There are worse lynches but my gut is still that Clarinets is town. I can't fault Mancer for being sick and not posting but between the two I still think that Mancer has shown more scum intent. Clarinets has moreso just shown a lack of content and indecision- that's essentially what most of the votes against him boil down to. As far as OUTSIDE TURBOLYNCHES go I'd be down for Shinori; his Refa vote bugs me. I'm not sure why he's voting Refa over Clarinets. I feel like it's an attempt at avoiding being on one of the main wagons. Also someone asked me whether I'm still suspicious of Izhuark. I'm wary but it's not a scumread? I'm looking for and at his posts more carefully than some other people's posts, but seeing as he has no non-RVS content, there's better stuff to go after at the moment. Clarinets should claim btw.

I don't really get what's wrong with Crysta? There was significantly less stuff to comment on at the time she made the vote. She should have posted more after that but she's hardly the only flaker.

?_? >_>

Shinori, I don't understand, if you can't even ascribe scum intent to Refa's claiming his trinity why is he scummy for it? It feels like you're voting for him because he did something you didn't like as opposed to something that was actually scummy. I found it odd that Eclipse would vote Mancer in RVS if she he had some role-related reason to also think he was town, or at least hold off on voting him. Clarinets makes my head hurt. Clarinets, you said you would read the thread again but your entire Eclipse case is just a minor suspicion I brought up. Listposts are normally lame but I want to see opinions from you on more people. Right now I just know Roxas and Eclipse? I'm frustrated because my gut is that you're town but your activity and effort has dropped off a lot from the beginning. I'll make a post or two in the morning but I won't be here for phase end. Clarinets and maybe Mancer and Roxas should claim I guess? btw is Roxas a guy or a girl?

@sb- what about tiny goddess? I don't think she's posted since the beginning of the game. eclipse, there's no point in voting/not-voting people partially based on role/setupspec and then not revealing your reasons. It shuts down discussion bc we can't really analyze your reasons and have to take any response from you at face value. It's also useless wrt convincing other people. Either don't use your role as a reason to vote or explain it when you do. Also, I was rereading a little- if you were never planning on voting Mancer today in a serious fashion, why even vote him in RVS?

Boron, do you really see Roxas as being the type of person who would fake disinterest and quit to avoid getting lynched? As a new player, it seems much more likely to me that... he actually just lost interest and quit. Why is he worse than Mancer? I think Roxas worded himself poorly in his Mancer vote and I don't like it because it's formulaic and doesn't look at context, but scumhunting based on wagon position is something that's done in a lot of places. NSider was really big on it IIRC. What's questionable about the logic? @Refa- Fair, looking at Mancer's post, I misread what he meant when he said that he agreed with both Eclipse and I. But this doesn't change why I find him scummy. He focused in on a select few Clarinets posts while ignoring others, and is making a bigger deal out of a joke post than necessary. Also, Clarinets literally just asked Eclipse to clarify her case because he didn't get it- what is asking all those questions about Clarinets' thoughts on Eclipse going to accomplish? It just makes it seem as if Clarinets is shirking content or something. Mancer's other content is just waffling on Roxas that doesn't come to a conclusion, which is why I specifically asked him what his final read on Roxas was in my next post after I voted him. Clarinets, you should read the thread and give more opinions on other people.

I didn't and don't agree with your Clarinets vote, but I don't think it was bad at the time you made it. However, your decision to keep your vote on him right now feels a little iffy bc I feel like you have more reason to find Mancer scummy. Why is Clarinets worse than Mancer? Is Refa's decision to claim his trinity scummy? I myself am conflicted about Clarinets. I don't think the cases made against him have been good, other than Crysta's. I agree that his play has focused a little heavily on trinities, and I don't like his stance on Roxas. That being said I feel like his tone has been townie and I also think it's townie that he was the most active early on in a pretty dead game. I want to see him give more thoughts on people.

Mancer, what is your overall feeling about Roxas/Archer of Gold?

@Refa- at the time I voted Izhuark it was the best I had and I didn't see a point in later lowering the quality of any reaction from him by saying "my vote is kind of meh". I asked Clarinets his opinion bc I was just trying to drum up activity and get some thoughts. I didn't give my opinion at the time bc tbh I hadn't really thought that much about it and also I didn't want him to go "yeah I agree with you" and I didn't give it later because, uh... I forgot. Thinking about it more, I'm actually kind of bothered by it? It seems like a formulaic way of finding scum intent as opposed to looking at context. But he's probably town- his quitting reaction was lame but I don't think he would pull that purposely to WIFOM; he's not Manix. Izhuark hasn't responded despite being around, which I guess is a thing but I don't remember Izhuark being the type to purposely lurk just because of suspicion? I think that it's probably null. I don't get Mancer agreeing with both me and Eclipse, bc Eclipse was saying that trinity-fishing was scummy, and I was kind of saying the opposite? I don't find Mancer's case on Clarinets good, because sure Clarinets kind of sidestepped it originally by joking about it, but he did address it later by asking her to clarify. I feel like he's making it out to be a bigger deal than it is. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Mancer would still like a response from Izhuark although at this point it's kind of useless. I didn't really like Refa's Clarinets vote either but then he retracted it without any pressure so I think that it shows a town process of rethinking his stance on his own, as opposed to when people call him out for it.. The one Clarinets vote that I thought was okay was Crysta's, because I agree that (prior to his post just now) he was focusing overly on trinities. I... don't get Clarinets's waffling on Roxas. He agrees that he seems town, but then says he's passively suspicious but then still leaning town...? This is me waffling now I guess. meh. Clarinets, who's your biggest suspicion atm?

not really sure what kind of reaction you guys are looking for from Mancer? @eclipse- struggling to follow the logic in your vote. Why is not having trinity information anti-town? My logic on trinities is this: the mafia on account of most likely having members in multiple trinities probably have more trinity information than anybody in the town. Odds are also good that they don't know everything though, so there's no point in giving them info right now for free, just like we don't massclaim on D1 either. The lack of weekend activity is frustrating, since I'm going to have much less time to play mafia during the week, and particularly during the next few days as I have a big assignment due.

tbh I was probably a better player back when I setup-specced less clarinets, what are your feelings on roxas's vote on mancer?

maybe I should rephrase- why does it matter with regards to finding out people's alignments? If Izhuark isn't good at setup-speccing then why bother with it, especially when the rules say not to bother? I also don't think it benefits the town to claim trinities at this point fwiw. In a 13p game, odds are good that the mafia don't have a player in each trinity, and maybe not even in 3 of them.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Izhuark why does it matter?