Slumber

Well hey, look at that. Vikings win and Packers lose, all in the same game. This win also probably keeps the Packers out of the playoffs, so that's nice.

Hey!... is one of my favorite songs by The Pixies. Welcome.

I never realized that as the WoL is fighting that angel, it goes through the focus classes since ARR(Warrior for 2.0, Dragoon for 3.0 and Samurai/Monk for 4.0).

You think Square would be all over Smash. From what I understand, it's basically free money, and Capcom and Konami seem to really enjoy letting their character be represented with how much support they're giving it. And Square's falling on some pretty hard times right now. The only thing I can think of is that Nintendo simply wasn't offering Square enough money for full support.

I think as party lines become clearer, states will vote down the line more often, unless we get a really reprehensible candidate(Worse than Trump). Trump winning Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania was I think as extreme as we'll get. While Wisconsin and Pennsylvania lean blue, they're still borderline swing states. Winning Michigan was a big deal. I think these states might be more solidly blue going forward, and some red states are inching bluer, but some states are getting redder, and I think we'll be pretty divided down state lines for the foreseeable future.

Best: Yeah. It's Tellius. No real surprise here. It was the formula from FE6-8 perfected(Or at least as close as they got to perfect) before changing their character formula completely. Supports feel meaningful and characters have a ton of personality. FE10 takes a hit, due to how they crippled the support system, but this mostly just affects the Dawn Brigade. New comers who get focus and the returning characters all still get plenty of moments to have their personalities shine. Worst: It's a three-way tie between Archanea, Awakening and Fates. All for different reasons. Archanea gets the short-end of the stick due to being in the era before they started focusing on characters. There's really not a lot to say about characters that aren't Marth. Awakening I just find has... really, insanely boring characters. I really struggle to say a single one is good. I feel like all of them are half-written, and their gimmicks straight up mute their actual characters. There are a handful of entertaining characters. Henry's fun to watch, and Gregor pulls off the "funny foreigner" trope well enough, but I can't say they're well developed or explored characters at all. Same goes for the boring characters like Miriel. I don't want to touch characters like Vaike, Gaius and Tharja, who are some of my most hated characters in the franchise for how goddamn unlikable and obnoxious they are. Fates does a bit better of a job evolving the "gimmick-centric" formula started in Awakening. There are a few more character I'd feel comfortable with saying are actually good and fleshed out... HOWEVER, a few writers on the team clearly were hit in the head too many times, and we still end up with characters like Camilla and Peri, and there's just no excuse for characters that bad and unlikable. Tharja is basically the only irredeemable character that the game asks you to like in Awakening, while Fates tosses at least three(Just off the top of my head because of another thread) complete awful wastes of characters at you and asks you to like them. Higher highs than Awakening, and lower lows, which brings it to the same embarrassing baseline for characters.

Hawaii's a stronghold state. Reagan's reelection was an odd one out, but that was an odd one out for every blue state besides DC and Minnesota.

FF12 is good. The HD version/Zodiac Age Remaster is great. Fixes a ton of the gameplay issues and the blandness of the License Board, so you can have a fun gameplay experience on top of being able to get into the politics of the world. And it does indeed focus more on politics. The "main" 3 characters are all pretty deeply embedded in the political world. Don't let Vaan turn you off. He's not that bad, and he really only exists to give you a fresh perspective on the world for the first 10ish hours. After that, he falls out of focus hard, and he doesn't really impact the story much at all.

I suppose you're right that there are a ton of asshole characters. Shinon's an asshole, Lute's an asshole, Makalov's an asshole, Vaida's an asshole... but these are very different than what we get with characters like Tharja, Peri, Azama, Camilla, etc. Shinon's mean, but you're also generally not supposed to be going "Oh Shinon, that scamp. That goofball." Units IN-GAME in PoR make no bones that most of them dislike him. Boyd says he'll kill Shinon without thinking twice after he defects, and only Rolf can get Shinon to go along with Ike. And to top it off, I don't recall anybody running away crying in Shinon's supports because he crossed a line with his jabs, and he never hurts his allies. Lute's arrogant and her intention is never to really hurt anyone. At worst she generally rubs people the wrong way because she's so eager to show off her skills and superiority. Makalov is selfish, and has a ton of self-destructive habits that put those around him in a position where they have to pick up after him. Vaida's probably the closest I think we've ever gotten to somebody on Azama's level prior to Azama, and it's really only in her Canas support where this shines through. Elsewhere, she has the personality of a drill sergeant. Generally terse, loud and shouting orders, never really getting too personal. It's really just Canas that she bullies, and Canas doesn't seem to mind that much, that this it really makes it any better. I should probably use another word for the Fates' cast+Tharja. I'd say abusive, since that definitely describes Camilla, Tharja and Azama, and fits with their intentions, but for as awful as she is, Peri doesn't really want to hurt her friends and others in the army, just random people on the street and her enemies. Camilla, Tharja and Azama are actively trying to hurt those around them, so abusive works for them. Maybe I'll just put a * next to Peri when I say that these character are especially bad because they're abusive.

I think that's one of the problems of relying on quirky characters like that. I don't know if that's how he is in the Japanese version, or if he was localized that way. Azama comes off so much more like a complete asshole than a jokester/prankster who goes too far sometimes, which is what I think the intention was. I really do want to get inside the heads of the people writing for Fates' characters, because there are so many characters on the rosters who are just wholly bad, unlikable people portrayed in inappropriate ways. I still maintain that Fates manages to make more compelling characters than Awakening, but on the flipside... Awakening really doesn't get as offensive with its bad characters, and even Tharja is portrayed in a way that seems like it was handled with a defter touch than some of what we get in Fates. I really would like to know if they thought they were writing endearing characters when they were writing characters like Azama and Camilla. Without even getting into Peri, there's probably at least 5 people in gen 1 alone who are just bad, bad people.

There are a few reasons the Fei/Elly romance feels a lot more "organic" than the other romances in Xeno and a lot romances in general is that a lot of emphasis is put on their relationship pre-romance. In their very first meeting, you don't even get the impression that they're ever going to be love interests. And it's not because Elly holds Fei at gunpoint and makes him help her out of the forest, and Fei is so broken at this point that he's basically egging her into shooting him... which is a pretty interesting first impression they're making on each other. There's something about the demeanor and way they speak to each other during this first meeting that just doesn't give the impression that they'll fall in love. A lot of romance stories show their hand pretty early, and you can usually tell if two characters are going to hook up at some point in their first interaction. Take Final Fantasy 8, for example(As another Square JRPG that focuses on a love subplot that came out around the same time). I actually like the Rinoa/Squall relationship, from Squall's perspective at least, but they lean into the idea that those two will hook up from the moment Rinoa looks at Squall. Or if you want to look at Fiora and Shulk, they're childhood friends and do a poor job of hiding that they're crushing on each other(And once Fiora comes back into the story, you pretty much know how that'll play out). With Fei and Elly, you don't really have any idea of how their relationship will go until Fei helps Elly kick her psychotic mind-altering PED problem, which is a good ways into the game, and I think the third time Elly and Fei even meet up with each other.

I think you can set your expectations a bit higher. And welcome. Glad to see you're trying to enjoy the whole series.

Hector, Illustrated by Rob Liefeld

At this point, though, I think you should bring up the problem that you just don't like these characters vs. saying their support is bad. Because, while I know this is anecdotal evidence, most people do seem to like Gray and Tobin quite a lot. I like them because each of the Ram boys besides Alm are all pretty eager to display their talents and skills out in the world, and they each do it through their own means. Gray displays this through playful cockiness, Tobin displays this through a genuinely eager, competitive demeanor, and Kliff displays it through a somewhat cold arrogance. It showcases why Gray and Tobin get along so well, while Tobin has a really tough time getting through to Kliff, even though all of them are childhood friends. And it's probably why the plot was developed in such a way that Kliff isn't as helpful as Gray and Tobin are, and why he's optional while Gray and Tobin jump at the opportunity to leave with Alm.

I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, but I do have to bring up a few personal problems with this: Robin takes center stage immediately after Walhart falls, which is chapter 21, of a 26 chapter game. So Robin is actually the direct focus for 6 chapters of a 26 chapter game is nearly a quarter of the game. On top of this, the Hierophant shows up in chapter... 13, I think? From this moment, there is no more attempting to hide the fact that Robin is a big deal in the story, and will likely play a much bigger role than is being let on. To add to this, Chrom's development largely stops once Gangrel leaves the story. At the base level, the Valm arc appears a clash of ideals between rulers for Chrom and Walhart, and by this point Chrom largely accepts his role as Exalt. However, Walhart actually considers the Valm segment game as a clash of ideals between Robin and Walhart. Obviously this doesn't have the greatest foundation since you only really find this out in supports, but since Walhart only has 100% unique supports with Robin... Plus, though this is a matter of opinion, I find Chrom's development quite, uh, bad. Really quite bad. And the fact that he's willing to doom the world 1000 years down the line for Robin right at endgame... to me, showcases that his growth really isn't THAT significant. And I'm still not seeing why Lucina should be considered the deuteragonist over Robin, since her relevance to the plot largely begins in chapter 4 and as you agree, ends at chapter 13 when it's revealed who she is. She straight up isn't in chapters 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, and she has a single speaking line in chapter 9. Even if you don't want to say Robin's involvement ONLY starts at 21, that's 6 chapters for Robin vs. uh, 1 chapter for Lucina. We assume Lucina is important from chapter 1 despite it not being clear until 4, but we also assume Robin is important starting from chapter 13 even if it doesn't pay off until 21. Incidentally, that'd be 14 chapters of assuming Robin is important vs. 13 for Lucina. This is without going into how much each character is focused on, because I'd argue that there really isn't a single moment in the plot where Lucina is ever the center focus vs. Chrom and Robin. If you want to say Lucina is a tritagonist with Robin and Chrom, go ahead. But as somebody who'd put Robin above Chrom(Which is where we'll have to agree to disagree) in terms of who is the main character of Awakening, you're gonna have a really tough time convincing me that Lucina is more of a main character and deserving of a deuteragonist spot, but I suppose we're splitting hairs at that point

Diversifying the base stats of the classes would go a decent way of making it relevant, and that's what I voted for before seeing remembering the argument that's been brought up: There just needs to be more magic representation in the game's roster, both on the player side and the enemy side. Having a small handful of magic users on the player's side to combat the odd enemy magic user who is guarded by a wall of physical meat shields just encourages using physical units. Chapter 17/18 of FE7 is a pretty great representation of how Fire Emblem could/should be more often. That's a chapter that allows for your brand new Monk and Shaman to shine(Pun not intended) as they pick off the Dark Magic focused boat while your physical units deal with the other two boats.

Why do people think this? I just had this discussion in another thread, and have yet to get an answer there. Awakening straight up couldn't be more about Robin. Literally everything that happens in that game is because of Robin, and there isn't a single major plot point that isn't tied to him/her somehow. They're not aware of it until the last chunk of game, but that doesn't change the fact that both the Plegia and Valm arcs couldn't have happened without them somehow, and the Grimleal Arc is about Robin and only Robin. And to top that off, Lucina over Robin? Really? Lucina might as well not exist in the plot after we learn that she's Chrom's daughter. Once that plot point is revealed, her relevance to the plot drops to a flat 0. She says things every now and then, but her agency in the story is basically gone... Really pretty early in the game. Robin never really loses relevance, and his/her input to Chrom is more important throughout a longer portion of the game until Robin hijacks the main character seat and the story is entirely focused on them.

In my opinion, there are a few big problems I'm seeing with your approach: The first is that Tobin is a country bumpkin. And while Gray has seen more of the world, he's still just a Ram kid. Claire, a noble, entering their lives and both of them falling head over heels for her is probably the biggest strain to their friendship, and it's something that has happened since the original Gaiden. I find it a pretty logical focal point of their supports. The second is that "Oh, remember those times when we were kids?!" supports are almost universally bad. In fact, I'll go right ahead and say "Oh, remember those times when we were kids?!" conversations are universally bad in all of fiction. It's an act of telling and not showing, and every single use of it I can think of has felt lazy and forced. This is especially so in Fire Emblem, which has been criticized for telling and not showing. The Gray/Tobin supports is one of the few chains of supports in the series that actually shows two people who are supposed to already be friends being friends, and your suggestion is that you want the game to tell you that they're friends instead. The third is that while the Claire could test their friendship more, I don't see the point of doing something like that. What would we get out of that? They'd get two supports arguing and a final support where they come back to being friends? The end result wouldn't be any different than what we got, and instead we'd lose two solid, pretty sincere friendship supports. It'd also be a bit weird with the narrative of the game where Gray and Tobin are Alm's right and left hands respectively. I don't know why you're continuing with Faye when I agree she's terrible and her supports suck.

Are you serious with the Tobin/Gray support? That whole support chain shows them just being friends, and both of them accepting that if either of them gets with Claire, they'll still be best friends and there'll be no hard feelings. Tobin reaffirms that Gray's friendship means more to him than getting with Claire when it's clear that Claire prefers Gray. That's not a crazy nuanced support, but I find it to be waaaaaay more substantive for both of their characters than a lot of the supports we got with in Fates/Awakening(And the Faye supports. No defending those). It's a support chain that'd break a ton of peoples' hearts if they get the ending where either of them dies(As hard as SoV makes that), considering how hard each of them take losing their best friend. Actually seeing their conversations where they just shoot the shit and talk like friends means so much more to me than something where two characters uncharacteristically trade sob stories or crack jokes that never amount to anything at one another.

This is where I think we're going to start seeing fundamental differences with the new crowd of FE fans and how they feel about non-Awakening/Fates supports. Support conversations can't be two people talking and just acting like normal people. If there isn't something crazy happening in the supports or they aren't building up to anything, I don't think the newer fans are going to be as invested, which I really find to be a shame. Except for Faye's supports. Those are just bad, and there is no shame in not enjoying those.

I mean, literally every single part of Awakening's story is ultimately about Robin, indirectly for Gangrel(Who is being backed and influenced by Robin's father and sister) and Walhart(Who is acting in preperation for Grima, who is also Robin). And then the final chunk of the game is all Robin, and Robin's the only one who can kill the final boss. The first few parts of the game put a thin veil around it, but the last part lifts the veil and it becomes pretty obvious that the game has been about Robin the whole time. Chrom got some focus and growth dealing with Gangrel, but he's ultimately just a piece of Robin's game. Plus, if we're going based on how involved in the plot a unit is to determine if they're a Lord or not, Lucina's really not much of a Lord. Once it's fully revealed who she is(About 1/3 of the way through the game), she kind of fades from the spotlight, aside to occasionally chime in and remind everyone of how shitty her timeline is. Hell, Lucina can be lost as a unit and it won't game over. She'll still be around, but not even the game seems to really consider her a Lord. Even Lyn causes a game over.

Robin's a Lord. They're a Lord of an evil cult, but it counts. Kinda similar to Micaiah's situation(Though she's the proper heir to the throne of Begnion and all that). Plus it's a game over when Robin dies, so they count. I guess Kris technically also counts, buuuuut... Nothing special about Kris' status in the world.

EDIT: Actually, I really don't want get into a big argument about this. Anyway, I'm on Mir's side here. I tend to think they're really bad(Selena, Orson, Valter) at worst, and passable(Caellach) at best. Sticking more towards the "Really bad" side.

Overall I'd say below average if we're talking about plot and main character writing. The lows are much more noteworthy than the highs at this point, and the highs are commendable, but nothing mind-blowing. Writing didn't really come into focus until Genealogy. FE3 has some stuff, but it's still laying the groundwork, and outside of Marth's growth throughout Books 1 and 2, I have very little to say, positively or negatively, about its writing. It just... really isn't there. And then Gaiden's whole story and script could fit on a napkin. Tellius is solid all around but I don't think it ever reaches the highs of the Jugdral games, and the very best I can say about it is "It handles racism kinda well". On the flipside, Jugdral has some highs, but gen 2 of Genealogy is nothing to write home about, and Thracia 776, depending on how you want to look at it, is either amazing(As a personal journey for Leif) or, once again, not much to write home about(The overall plot of the game divorced of Leif's development, since it's a very typical "I'm liberating my homeland!" plot). Overall solid packages, but nothing crazy. And for me, that's about as far as Fire Emblem's "Good writing" goes. From there, you have the barebones rehash of Binding Blade. You have the unremarkable, but once again very dependent on its main characters for anything of interest and actually has arguably a very poor plot, of Blazing Blade. You have the complete "F, see me after class" writing of Sacred Stones that was just interested in putting plot elements in front of you and not ever expounding on them, and still had somehow a fuckton of absolute nonsense filler to meet the page requirements for this assignment. Then you get the modern era Fire Emblem, which only ever gets average at best. Awakening has a... fine first act. From there, it's total dogshit, with the last chunk of Awakening being just as bad as anything from Fates... and then you actually have Fates, which is just some of the worst game writing I have ever seen. And I'm one of those "games don't have very good writing" people, so for it to be that noteworthy? It's bad. SoV had a cool premise and could have been a decent commentary on classism, and the rights/ability of the common man vs. nobility... but it absolutely squanders that because Alm is the main character and responsibility is thrust upon him immediately, and from the very beginning the game is pounding it into your head that Alm is special. So once that whole theme falls apart, it's another pretty standard FE game. Talking about the writing of like, supports and characters overall, that'd be a much bigger discussion, but honestly probably not too different.

Willkommen. I, similarly, had been a lurker of this site for a... long time before actually registered. Actually probably about 10 years from when I registered here like you. Seems you've got a pretty solid amount of Fire Emblem under your belt.