Makaze

Thank you.

If you are town, I have a lot of trouble believing it because the way you have been playing does not read genuine to me. I mean this. I read your posts. I try to understand them. And it looks like you don't believe what you're saying. I get the opposite impression from other players. I cannot ignore my instincts in cases like this, because they are all I have to go on, and I would rather get beaten by someone who is so good at pretending a town mindset that I empathize with their persona, than someone is town but is not actually trying to win. I don't believe you are trying to win. You are trying to kill me, and that's your end game. Even if you are town, that's all you care about, and you also can't accept a world where you die and the village wins. You're so vain and unhappy that I cased you that you'd throw the game if it meant you could rub it in my face that I'm not unlynchable. I'm serious. That's how I view your play. There are many reasons for suspecting you, even outside of these petty, anti-win con, you throwing the game because of your pride reasons. I want to note that this entire thing came up because you made this amazing defense, and I found a very glaring flaw in that defense. Instead of naturally recovering as you would have if it was genuine, you flipped your shit, and have been flipping for literally multiple phases. You have only stopped flipping it for very sparing moments when you make posts actually addressing me like this one, which read as you trying to pocket me, and nothing else, because you will go back to trying to lynch me in five minutes. Your entire play style has to change for me to change my mind. Get better at showing me that you are town, or just lay down and stop going OMGUS on a fellow town. It's not helping, and it really doesn't make anyone like you. You're the main reason Via is happy to be out of the game, and I strongly suggest you take that seriously. Yeah, I can see a world where Athena/Walrein are scum/ITP in some order, I just have serious trouble believing that Omega is trying to win unless his ultimate win condition is to survive. Which it would be as ITP. Plus Marth claiming his role when that is PATENTLY anti-town, and PATENTLY pro-ITP. Plus the lying about drawing the NK, because Omega claimed the role himself, and lost the no knowledge of claim alibi. Plus the opportunistic following of any wagon, including ones I (the person he has been trying to kill for phases -- even when by his own admission he is townreading me) am the reason for. His play makes no sense from the perspective of someone who is trying to solve the game, and he only seems to actually latch onto anything reasonable when it is mechanically relevant, because he doesn't actually care about tone or alignments -- he's not trying to solve the game. If he's not ITP he is intentionally not helping, which I would see as worse, because it is fundamentally impossible to read someone who is intentionally not trying, and you should never sign up to a game you are not going to play, especially not to sub in and trash the game by not playing. I get strong feelings that some people are trying to solve the game. Omega is squarely not that person.

I just realized this wording is nonsense, I meant that it is much better for wolf!Fable not to claim and for Walrein to get scumread while other try to sus out the reason for this failure. He helped townclear another player for no reason other than being honest and believing that it towncleared him.

I am in favor of killing Walrein for the purpose of solving on top of just mixed tone reads and the incredibly opportunistic way he jumped on the Arcanite and Snike lynches. "Oh my god that's wolfy" -- @Refa you yourself quoted these and said "I'd expect him to at least adjust, but all he did was say "Well I don't know his meta" and then kept on voting". These reasons for Walrein are not invalid because of his claim being real. What do you have to say? I think you genuinely are having these reads, but you keep contradicting yourself by letting certain role actions overrule post content and certain post content overrule role actions. You aren't considering the whole picture on any of the players in the PoE, and instead clear one for one reason and suspect one for another, and not "this whole player looks worse than this whole other one". I will explain once again why Evan is never Mafia, from my perspective. On top of his Bookie claim, which I feel strongly convicted about, I cleared Evan based on his actual content before anything. This is how he responded to me saying "This is a bad post. Just saying." Tonally I believe this is how I would respond as town, and I completely buy the way he is approaching my response. He's not defensive and he's not suspecting me. He's engaging. He's inviting more responses. This seems like a town motivation. When I asked him who he would vig, without any hesitation he immediately gave me this list. I believe this shows genuine conviction and strongly leans in favor of him having a solving process instead of "How do I convince people I am town" mindset. When I said I take back what I said, instead of just saying "So now you're townreading me? Just like that?", he had a question about the specifics. When someone suggested that I was driving the game, he responded this way. I strongly believe this comes from a town who is genuinely reading me and correcting another town player. He goes on this speculation about Snike based on rolespec that seems to be genuine processing of balance. I don't think this argument occurs to him to write at this time if he's just faking. I can see the gears turning in his head and he posts this as he comes up with it instead of making things up to say. Then Evan got into an argument with me where I said I don't think my Walrein read makes sense as w/v, but does make sense as w/w (from a purely strategic standpoint). He disagreed with me, and the way he argued suggests that he was genuinely trying to understand what I was saying, and his mind does change about whether I'm faking a scumread or have an actual progression in my thinking. It doesn't promote w/w interactions. Your switch on Walrein leads me to one of these conclusions: 1. You are town who just didn't pay attention to anything 2. You are scum that decided giving in and scum reading Walrein was a better play When I linked my Walrein case: This happened in the middle of our conversation, and while it may null in most cases, I do not think that Evan profits from helping clear Walrein in this way. It's just not necessary to say. He goes on to say this, which suggests he is actually considering a world where I have actual reasons for my reads. He says my Shinori argument is weak earlier and now he says there is no argument for my Shinori side. Shows he has actual reasons for questioning me that are completely believable from the position of someone who didn't see the logic behind what I quoted (instead of knows that I'm town and is just pushing me for no reason). He once again argues with me about the philosophy behind pocketing and what I would do. I think this comes from conviction as a player arguing and not from a scum trying to play me argument. Then I lay out my case If that's the context you failed to give any of that in your post and I would like it rewritten so i can understand what you are saying He's genuinely reading what I'm saying and reconsidering whether he thinks I am just talking out of my ass or have an actual way of interpreting it. Then he re-assesses my point of view, believes that I believe it, and decides that it isn't good enough for his standards. This is a progression from someone who does not know my alignment, so Evan cannot be Mafia, at the least. Not in my world. I'll explain Fable if you want, but Fable has done literally nothing to make me doubt him, and I seriously get the distinct impression is he actually annoyed with my play from a town perspective and does not show any kind of playfulness, personal agenda, or otherwise non-genuine actions, including his claim. His claim makes perfect sense for when and how he uses it, and I have no reason to think he would make up a fake claim that he thinks is clearing of Walrein just because when it is much better for him as Mafia if Walrein is scum. He could have easily speculated that Walrein was jailed N1 or roleblocked, but he read his role, actually believed that it was why Walrein failed, and claimed it because he was sure that Walrein was town after he claimed. I don't think this makes sense for Mafia, and I tonally read Fable town at every step of the game. I have ISO'd him multiple times to recheck this. You are wrong about both Evan and Fable.

Right. I'd be fine with hammering after his statement (well, unless he makes a good argument) unless @Blitz thinks he can contribute meaningfully. What do you say (blitz)?

It is not important and I have no problem with dying if it helps PoE, but vigging Walrein is better for solving unless you legitimately think I am more likely to be lying.

Yes, I think this is a likely option. In particular, I'm townreading everyone on it but Walrein. So no matter what, lynching Athena > Omega and vigging or lynching Walrein solves the game. Even if there are still living scum, it mechanically lowers the PoE to specific subsets.

Or... It's just Walrein. Vigging Blitz is still a good option IMO. If Athena is ITP, then either Omega or Blitz has to be Mafia (seriously leaning Blitz). If Athena is Mafia, then Omega is ITP. Gets rid of all of my mechanical questions and solves the game as far as I'm concerned.

I think they both killed Via. A world where Athena protected me seems really silly at this point.

I believe the single kill power argument is incredibly important. Even if the Mafia only have 4 members, town has practically no stopping power against this scum team or ITP. I'd be fucking amazed if the only KP from town is a single day shot. Why does Mafia have all those protective methods to stop a single ITP from killing them? You're just stubbornly against rolespec arguments on principle.

Athena networked Beru to Via. Beru watched me and Athena visited me. I'm not dead... So Athena isn't claiming a part of his role. It's suspicious as hell.

@Refa Actually read my mechanical argument. If Walrein is telling the truth, how could Evan have killed through Mack's Martyr? Lord Gaius was Kaoz's top suspect. It's not possible. If Walrein is clear, then Evan is too (at least of killing Kaoz). Also, how does town only have a single dayvig for kill power against an ITP, a mafia rogue + strongman, and a roleblocker? It flies in the face of balance.

It's not Evan or Fable. You're just wrong. It's somewhere in Athena/Omega/Walrein And there's no room to widen that, FMPOV.

Why would you ask to be motivated just to idle it? How is that a pro-town move? Can you claiming help solve at all?

The lack of motivating Evan is very annoying though. Mafia should just NK me, it would make things easy.

Walrein motivating you does not look good to me. It is extremely anti-town compared to motivating Evan, if your role is what I think it is.

Beru has a lot more solving power than you do. No offense.

Why wouldn't the Mafia just kill Beru at this point?

##Vote Athena Logic says this will solve a lot more, and I support vigging Blitz, which should solve the game, one way or another.

Did Walrein submit the motivate on Refa or did you? What was Walrein's choice before that if you changed it?

I would not not do this if possible.

I honestly had not considered that. I have no complaints with that reasoning.

I'll have to apologize. Satsuma's video had me dying though. Worth it just for that.

It makes sense if the ITP and the Mafia both tried to kill the same person.

PS: If you believe Beru, I could not be the Mafia, because I did not submit a Night Action (unless you think there are 5 mafia).