[So...let's talk tiers.]

No, if anybody IS using Isadora seriously in a ranked run, it's not going to be because she's hot, it's because you can work around her flaws to make her usable [somebody did a paladin only run on youtube]. And sometimes there's just flat out exceptions, you're not going to see ANYBODY bringing Jeigan to Endgame due to the raw fact he's unusable later on. Not bad. Unusable.

You don't know this for a fact at all. Stop passing it off as fact.

Yes, Isadora has flaws and Jeigan is impossible to use endgame. It won't stop people from using them anyway, even when ranked. You can't possibly prove that people never use them for ranked runs, ever; you can assume, but that's all it is, an assumption. And assumptions are not always true; the tier list is based upon one assumption as well; the character in question is being used. Nothing more.

The team doesn't care all that much about losing Karel, so yes, the principle is different.

That's assuming you're not going to be using Karel. The tier assumes you are using Karel.

It's not hypocritical at all because it really makes no difference unless there's a gap between the performance of the two.

This is known as a double standard. Which is similar to hypocrisy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/double+standard

http://www.doublestandards.org/

etc

There's little to no difference between Alan and Samson. There's little to no difference between the royals. So the team doesn't really give a **** either way. Why should it matter?

Alan shuts out Samson, who sucks. But Alan also sucks, and I wouldn't have gotten any more use out of Samson.

Samson shuts out Alan, who sucks. But Samson also sucks, and I wouldn't have gotten any more use out of Alan.

Giffca is win. He's not really any more win than Tibarn and Naesala, but you can only pick one of them, so it doesn't really matter which one.

Tibarn is win. He's not really any more win than Giffca and Naesala, but you can only pick one of them, so it doesn't really matter which one.

Naesala is win. He's not really any more win than Tibarn and Giffca, but you can only pick one of them, so it doesn't really matter which one.

Fucking irrelevant, do you not realize what a principle is? I'm not arguing that alan/samson and giffca/naesala/tibarn are carbon copies of one another, I'm arguing that Karel and Harken, despite the difference in quality, should not be judged based upon whether or not their performance is adequate and not because one is blocking out another. The latter is bias towards Harken and bias against Karel, and you know it.

And frankly, I give a shit. It just happens that Alan/Samson or Tibarn/Naesala/Giffca are around the same grouping in regards to their quality.

Karel's performance is average. Harken has nothing to do with this.

Harken's performance is good. Karel has nothing to do with this.

By "a significant gap" I mean just that: A gap. An actual gap in usefulness is when characters shutting other characters out starts to matter.

This is still vague. A consistent tier list mathematically defines what it means by things, and explains the reasoning behind it.

And Harken ISN'T getting any more treatment than Karel. How many fucking times are you going to make me repeat this? We're not giving Harken Afa drops, extra kills, statups, anything.

Harken simply is. By being recruited, and not being bumped down for blocking out another character when the other character is being bumped down for blocking him.

But it means I'm missing out on a better deal. Who would pay the same price for LESS?

The 600 gig is 30 bucks, the 1000 gig is 50 bucks. The catch is you only have 50 bucks to spend.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

You're not going to see anybody using Isadora because she's hot.

You could. You just don't know.

And Karel is the REASON Harken can't be there, so he's preventing something good from existing.

Harken is the reason Karel can't be there, so he's preventing someone from existing. Just because he's good doesn't mean the principle is different.

So nobody cares about losing the other because he's still a fail unit. You still haven't countered the logic that it actually matters UNLESS THERE IS A NOTABLE GAP BETWEEN THE TWO.

What is a "notable gap", exactly? Is it an arbitrary gap? Tell you what, give me an exact definition of "notable gap" instead of saying "unless there's a notable gap."

On top of that, I still don't see how that isn't being a hypocrite. Once again, just because Harken is better than Karel does not mean that one deserves more treatment than the other; this is not even a rule of a tier list.

But it means I can't get the 1000 GB, which could have done me a lot more good for the exact same price.

But it doesn't detract from the quality of the 600 GB.

I yam what I yam.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

[OMG it's a tier list]

Hit rate is fixed with a rather inexpensive forge.

As for availability, she has the same as Zihark (minus 1-8), as in 15 chapters, which is reasonably high, and she can boost that amount by swapping armies in 3-7.

She can take care of the Pegasi before they get to you, as well.

[Hard mode team.]

1200 gold for the Silver Longbow? That screams rip-off to me. Longbows in Radiant Dawn, to be blunt, suck. A loss of 30 accuracy from an already inaccurate weapon just for 3 range? No thank you. Oh, and Oscar can't even use it.

don't forget the marksman gets a third range! and the bow users have better methods of going ranged anyway, the third range isn't even necessary

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Tier players are not biased towards a paritcular class. We are NOT using this for casual play. Stop acting like it. For gameplay reasons, Karel is more likely to be left behind.

And yet you still can't find everyone and evaluate whether or not they've attempted HHM ranked.

The mind of a player is going to take gameplay mechanics into account, and as such, will be more likely to use Harken.

The mind of a player takes it into account, yet is not the gameplay mechanic itself.

The entire list of people who have played FE7 have either done so once, have not attemped rank play, or didn't even bother finishing it. The rest attempted a rank. A good portion fall into the three groups, so shut the fuck up with this logic, it's a crockpot of shit.

Hostile much? Jeez, I just want to talk about FE.

People aren't allowed to play favorites on ranked runs either? What a crappy kind of thinking this seems to be.

And what affect does this have on the team's overall ability? SOME! Why is this so fucking hard to understand?! We are judging units BASED ON A TEAM OVERALL, NOT FUCKING INDIVIDUALITY!

As far as I'm aware tiers judge units based upon their individual strengths, not that they'll be by themselves of course. But Harken's not coming doesn't affect the team much because he wasn't even there in the first place. You can't affect something until you're there.

The team's OVERALL PERFORMANCE, which is what IS relevant, DOES have something to do with it, and if you're judging as otherwise, you're the biased one. I don't see what's so biased about knocking Karel for a flaw he has.

His main "flaw" that knocks him down, as far as I'm aware (and that of which we're arguing about), is also the target of bias. And you can't seem to admit this.

Picking Karel over Harken is also bias, but that's up to the player who they pick. However, penalizing one because you can't get the other? The penalty is bias unless it applies to everyone, or no one. No in betweens.

Adam and Samson are on equal fail.

So?

Geitz and Wallace are equal meh.

So?

The royals are equal win. Nobody cares that they shut each other out, because they're more or less offering the exact same thing.

So?

It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. It's the principle. And in order to prevent from being a hypocrite, you must abide to a principle in every individual case; you cannot suddenly decide "oh shit, well you see they're COMPLETELY different in terms of quality so we HAVE to automatically penalize the one that isn't as good just because of that."

It's called "common sense"

Is that what you kids are calling it these days?

In the case of Karel and Harken, I can have 7 or 2. In the case of the royals, I can have 9, 9, or 9. Unless there's any real gap between the units, then there's no reason why it should matter at all.

Out of interest, if you had a spare 50 bucks and wanted a hard drive and you found a 1000 GB for 50 bucks and a 600 GB for 30 bucks, which of those two are good? Both are in fact good (well, the GB/cost ratio is exactly the same), but you'd obviously go for the 1000 GB right? The 600 GB is still good and it is not affected by the 1000 GB's superior quality at all, but it's still good.

Same applies to Harken vs Karel. Karel is inherently average though, and Harken is quite good. But Karel blocking out Harken should not determine whether or not Karel is a good unit, and it should be factor for every single case it is applied to or a completely null factor. It encourages hypocrisy, which a tier list should not be judged by.

take a deep breath and relax... seriously.

[Apparently Levail is not immune to leathiality]

Not if you use him as a shield. This is the best way to use him in Part 1. Just have him unequip his weapons, have enemy NPCs attack him, then have people behind him use ranged weapons to kill them. This is a great way to get everyone to catch up to him. To prevent him from dying in Part 3, give him paragon so he can level up as much as he can before he auto-promotes.

Sorry for posting twice and oddly like that, but when I read through the first few pages no one was talking about this strategy.

that's stupid lol, no offense or anything

Best way is to give him bronze daggers and knives until your units get a lot of level ups, then you can upgrade his weaponry. Even though bronze is pretty much all that's available until chapter 7 anyway. He really doesn't kill that often, though Kard does (Kard is a shitty weapon, by the way).

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Nobody is going to prefer 2 speed over all of Harken's other leads.

Alright, the entire point is going over your head. The person likes Swordmasters, whatever.

Tiers assume rankings only, so you're not going to sell this "play favorites" garbage. And even if you want to, nobody's buying. This is NOT the casual play tier list, so, fail. Gameplay. Mechanics. Only. Thank you, come again!

You're preaching gameplay mechanics, then you say "well a player is more likely to use Harken" which is NOT gameplay mechanics, but the mind of the player. Make up your mind!

And frankly? Anyone who plays favorites trumps your point that "high tier = more use," because if they favor Karel they're more likely to play him than Harken. Same argument goes for Harken. Simply put, your point is untrue until you can compile the entire list of people who have played FE7 and checked what they have and have not played and do all that AP Statistics shit on it to figure out where they truly should go, assuming that higher tier = more often played is correct. Because unless you're fucking omnipotent (which we all are far from), you cannot say that high tier characters are played more often than low tier characters.

No, but he's PREVENTING something far superior to him from existing.

And what effect does this have on his battle abilities? None!

Why? Nobody gives a **** about losing Karel, he has, say, about the same prepromote utility, maybe more, than Getiz/Wallace. It's barely even a price to pay for what Harken offers. You never answered my earlier question. Should Merric go to high if he blocks out Est?

Merric should not be penalized, and if Est blocked Merric out then she should not be penalized either. Because this has no bearing on Merric's performance, that of which is being judged by a tier list in the first place. Performance has nothing to do with who you're blocking out, and if you're judging as such the tier list becomes biased.

Of course not, because nobody CARES that he blocks out Est. If we're not playing HHM? Then sure, it probably matters a little more. Oh, and if you actually think Merric blocking out Est means we move him down at all, then I'm fucking done with you.

His blocking out Est is irrelevant point to his own performance. If his performance is poor (which it is not), then sure he sucks. But blocking out Est still has nothing to do with it.

If Est blocks out Merric, then that doesn't do anything to her tier list ranking. The main reason being that it still has no effect to her performance.

But it DOES matter when determining the TEAM's worth.

But absolutely not Karel's worth!

Unless there's a signficant gap between the two units, why does it matter at all?

To keep tier list rankings consistent and unbiased, something that you don't seem to be able to grasp.

someone's getting a bit angry lol chill out, it's just a video game.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Why would anybody value 2 points of speed over getting owned in everything else?

And again, this is going right over your fucking head, as always. Pick Karel if you want. He's still the inferior choice.

Missing the point aren't we! It's supposed to contradict your statement where a player is supposedly more likely to pick Harken over Karel - but everyone has their preferences so you can't even say that is true. I think Karel is a badass (and Harken too), so I'd occasionally go for the guy who killed an army and raped their corpses.

Wow, are you a fucking idiot or what? I never said this. I did say that Harken was a better choice, and thus, is more likley to be picked over Karel. Seriously, I'm getting sick of saying this over. And over. And over. This assumption never existed, so it can't be false. That thing I told you about reading other people's arguments before you argue against them? Do it. Seriously.

This is an assumption until you can prove it as fact. Ask everyone who has ever played FE7 as to whether or not they got Harken more or Karel more on their playthroughs and ask them the reason why they got Karel or Harken. Is it because he's better? Probably is because people play their favorites (and it's factually true), but whatever the reason may be you still cannot pass off higher tier = more likely to be used as fact until you have the statistics to back your assertion up.

One unit is PART OF THE TEAM.

But not the entire team. And he's not hurting what doesn't exist.

I'm not saying they do, because they don't. They don't screw around in the higher tier's buisness, at all. You can use all of the higher ranked characters and still have room for several lower ranked since 15 units is honestly excessive space [i never even hit double digits]

And this is still not mattering when it comes to determining Karel's worth. Harken doesn't exist in a

Because nobody really cares about losing Wallace OR Geitz, since both of them suck. Nobody really cares about losing Alan or Samson. Nobody really cares about the royals because they're all on about the same scale of win.

A huge double standard. If you're going to penalize Karel for blocking out Harken, you should penalize Harken for the same regardless of the quality just for consistency, and avoiding hypocrisy.

"No one cares about the other units that require you to choose" is further adding to how much of a hypocrite anyone using this argument is, because regardless of whether or not they're a bottom tier or top tier should be irrelevant if they're blocking someone out; penalize both or neither, but don't be a hypocrite.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Do you REALLY think it takes a tier player to see how Harken getting HM boosts and supports while Karel gets neither makes Harken better at total first glance? Never mind that his growth rates are way better [Osnap 30% def/25% res]

What if the person likes Karel better than Harken? What if the person got raped by some guy who looked like Harken and is afraid to get Harken because of that? What if, oh my God, they just HATE Harken?

Your assumption that Harken will ALWAYS be used over Karel is a false assumption. I love Harken but I rush the chapters and end up getting Karel every playthrough. I don't think I'm the only one who does this either.

Yes, it is, because it means I don't get a unit who's so damn good he's almost capable of soloing chapters by himself [scratch that, he probably CAN solo one or two chapters], meaning my team is nowhere near as good as it could have been.

Technically if you solo a chapter with Harken you're completely hurting EXP rank because Level 10s don't get much EXP.

You can't hurt the team if it's only affecting one unit. You're almost making it sound as if the bottom/low/mid tiers exist only to suck the high tier's dicks.

No, I don't fucking know it, because Harken outclasses Karel so badly it's not funny, and giving up a below average unit like Karel is hardly much of a loss.

You said so yourself that this doesn't apply much to Geitz or Wallace. Why only apply it to Harken and Karel? That's another double standard. It's also like crapping on Kent/Lowen for blocking out the Knight's Crest for Sain/Oswin.

Rly. If this statement was true, Dart/Farina would be somewhere not in bottom tier.

Using Dart allows you 110K funds to use. Using Farina only allows you 110K to use. It allows too much less flexibility and you need to cut down on promotions and high cost weapons to use if you want to compensate for it.

And really? They have too many other shortcomings for the 50K to matter in the first place.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

It's avoiding favoritism if both or neither are taken off a point, in my opinion. No in betweens.

[OMG it's a tier list]

Enough to maybe get him to 20/5.

To be perfectly fair, Nolan's probably getting 18/0-20/1 areas at the end of Hard mode.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Yes, I DO have something to back it up, it's called "common sense". Harken's far better. Obviously Higher tiered players have a better chance of being played.

No because about 80% of the people who play FE don't even give a damn about tiers to care about Harken > Karel and play whoever the hell they want anyway. And I end up having Karel a lot more because I plow through that chapter and I can't be fucked to restart to get Harken.

Because I CAN'T get Harken, who would have been far better off.

That's not hurting the team at all! That's just saying the other option is better, not that he's hurting the team. Hurting the team is coming in and costing 50K to promote, or being recruited requires that you kill every single unit you've used prior NOT picking some guy over another, better character.

Except nobody cares because Harken's a great unit and Karel's a below average unit.

This is a double standard and you fucking know it.

Oh, by the way, Harken hurts the tactics ranking by like, 2, 3 turns, tops? Well, Karel gives your funds rank the bird himself. Funds is debatably harder to S than tactics, otherwise Dart/Farina wouldn't be so low.

No, you get loads of Funds throughout the game. 351K worth of Funds throughout the game, probably 250K under realistic conditions. Which leaves you with 170K to spend before you lose your S rank. I'll go into specifics on how it's 351K once I find the post, but I'll wait to see if you ask first.

Tactics is more of a bitch to increase because nobody knows what the requirements actually are off the top of my head. Getting Harken is quite a bit more turns and probably a blow to your funds rank in Jerme's map because it requires you get to the doors a bit later and getting the items a bit later.

[OMG it's a tier list]

Again it all depends on the value of availability. Meg can contribute to your team after climbing out of her huge hole, and perhaps compensate for her suck before Renning even shows up.

But Renning can actually compete in the final chapter! Meg's going to be underleveled in Part IV.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

No. I think Harken is a factor for Karel. Just like Karel is a factor for Harken. Not penalizing either is ignoring in-game reality, so penalize them both for not getting the other respective character. It is just that Harken apparently gets the better end of the deal.

Getting Harken = not getting the Wo Dao or Karel, Getting Karel = not getting the Brave Sword or Harken. But I don't see how this should penalize either in the first place when you're meant to be judging performance.

[OMG it's a tier list]

Rolf up to high mid, Edward, Mist and Nephenee WAY down.

I'm assuming this a hard mode tier list.

and yet you're advocating Rolf up to high mid...

[So...let's talk tiers.]

i pretty much agree with your point about karel, which is pretty much the point

BB even admits himself, but harken is not a factor which is the key idea

[So...let's talk tiers.]

I'd move them both down due to their not existing for 97+% of the game. i agree helping out in the final chapter on their own accord > being below average for the entire game, but upper mid is doing at least average for the entire game... so they're around for longer than nagi/gotoh and helping out for the time they're there.

I suggest penalizing both mostly because one gets you a Brave Sword and one gets you a Wo Dao, and because of different requirements to get. One is still going to be better than the other regardless.

Harken > Karel, Brave Sword > Wo Dao but I would still penalize neither unless you really want karel to suffer for not allowing you to receive harken... in which case you'd also penalize harken

PROTIP: italics probably mean they're editing a post

[So...let's talk tiers.]

I suggest penalizing neither, and only penalizing both if you're going to penalize one for not letting the other exist so as not to create a double standard of sorts.

And I already explained why I feel that she doesn't need to go below upper mid, because she's good on her own accord, not making characters below her worse.

Same applies to Gotoh! and you're against his moving up too

[So...let's talk tiers.]

In the same vein, you would be able to say that Karel should be lower because he prevents Harken from being used when Karel is already lower than Harken, which also doesn't make sense.

Exactly. He's arguing against that.

He's also saying that Harken being used also should detract from Harken's usefulness because it prevents Karel from being used. It should work both ways regardless of quality, not just one way because something's better. The latter is hypocritical, inconsistent, double standard, whatever you wish to call it.

She has to be above SOMEONE, and is going to be above someone no matter what. She's useful enough to not be bottom tier. Bottom of high/top of up-mid is a good place, because she's above the characters she needs to be above in that position (except Lena, whom I concede and ask to be moved up).

Then put her above the guys doing below average throughout the game, not the up-mid crowd that's doing above average throughout the entire game. Put her above Gotoh if anything (I think Low is a bit too low, but Up mid is too high).

[OMG it's a tier list]

oh, there's also kieran... whose availability is larger than Geoffrey's and he has mount, and str/def to take advantage of even if he has problems with doubling... surely it's not lower mid material... bottom of upper mid though.

and lyle tiers are for people who have nothing better to do come winter break.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Well, the tier list has to take everyone into account, and judging everyone's usefulness.

Then why is Nagi > upper mid? She's not doing THAT much in the final chapter that everyone else isn't already doing. Other than killing dragons.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

You can warp to take out any boss. Just limit the game to using Rena, Marth, and Nagi if you're concerned with warp staffs, and make everyone else bottom because that's the fastest way to play the game anyway.

[OMG it's a tier list]

That's some high levels you're giving him. He isn't gaining any levels in part 2 and only one or two in part 3, even with Paragon. And he only has 1 part 3 chapter and 1 part 4 chapter before endgame.

lol, I forgot about that last one. Disregard it.

I can see him gaining a level in Part 2, since I forgot how low everything was.

I can somewhat see Rhys > Geoffrey now. tell you if anything comes to mind

the main thing I can see going for soren is how quickly he can max out magic and skill and res so you can jack his speed... other than that, he's fine where he is

I like the idea of Oscar below Rafiel because of his availability in tandem with Ike and his support with Ike (an earth x earth support that lasts a very long time is really cool, especially on a good unit and an above average mounted unit). Oscar for high tier ideally. maybe moving leanne up (below rafiel) and Oscar below Leanne is cool too

[OMG it's a tier list]

Three if I recall correctly.

[OMG it's a tier list]

Zihark starts great and ends great and has Earth affinity. Sothe generally gets worse. That's the basic idea.

Fair point, that's the part I was contemplating. I'll come up with something if I can, but right now I can definitely see why Zihark > Sothe.

Rolf grows pretty fast and has amazing late game potential. By the time Mist promoted, her abilities aren't as valuable.

This is also true, but the utility still exists. Rolf is still a pain to use, too.

Kyza has availability over Volke more than anything and is decent for his class. Rhys has availability and healing over Geoffrey.

Geoffrey will still sustain a level lead. That's my main argument. His Paragon ability will allow him to hit around Level 17 or 18 by the end of part II and he could potentially promote by the time you get him in Part III, if not he still has a couple chapters.

Kyza vs Volke I don't care about, but "decent for his class" doesn't matter. (note the bolded part). Kyza isn't doing that hot, Volke is doing somewhat well (although average in relative terms; I still wouldn't put him below Kyza).