Lord Raven

Screw this, I disagree with you way too much. It was hypothetical. At base level it's a 3 defense lead based on the same growth using Cavalier vs Merc.Ogma can adjust his Defense stat to be higher, too. And after promotion? It's a lead of two def (not assuming Knight was used as a class change at all!) vs an HP lead. In fact, since you're so adamant about the WTA, it's a 1 def lead because he can now use Axes as a Hero vs Nabarl, who is still stuck with Lances. On top of an HP lead (he even gets more on promotion). Screw the Horseman argument for move, it's only two more for Nabarl than it is for Ogma. It's not THAT significant, not to the point where he's getting raped (he has more movement than most of your units anyhow, whereas Ogma is on par or higher), but he still won't be using all of it. Easy game or not, it's tough to survive getting ganged up because 13 Def/39 HP (vs 11 Def/44 HP/WTA at this point) is still somewhat shaky. Read above. Only before promotion does this hold water. After promotion, Ogma is winning durability. Everyone deserves fair treatment for something they both make use of. Just because they're bottom tier doesn't change around the competition. Nabarl's problems are gone after two or three levels as well. Why can't you wait it out for Nabarl too? Not well. It's still shaky. Defense in this game in general is shaky unless you're like Sedgar or Wolf. Every archer can counter at range lol Yeah, that's why it's case by case and not a generalization. Being played is a player choice, not a pre-assumed tier list choice.

Sorry.What makes Oliver any special? He's a creepy pedophile with like nothing. And Reyson broke his first punching such a man. Haar kills armored shit with axes and doesn't break a sweat, or his hand. Haar can do that while sleeping. Faggy white angel wings manliness vs dark, bamf wyvern? No disagreement here either. So Reyson helps himself gain less EXP? In those two turns it takes to use an Olivi Grass (plus 3 with lower movement before transformation), Haar is dishing out attacks and taking counter attacks with minimal effort. This always puts his offense a turn or two ahead. Thunder Sages tend to use magic that kills him in a hit or two, a critical doesn't make it THAT much better. If not, then he has a simple time killing them back; their speed is pretty low (16 AS vs 20 AS).Halberdiers, on top of doing few damage, won't do much better with their minuscule crit%. Halberdiers do 9-10 damage to Haar with Steal Greatlance, 1-2 with Javelins, 4-5 with Short Spears and Steel Lances. Once every 100 attacks towards Haar is a critical, which is not bad even though he'll take like 27-30 damage from said critical at best. (1% rate of Crit, btw) I'm assuming you're getting attacked by the eastern portion of the fort, and in that case Halberdiers and Armors are pretty much the only things that exist there. And Thunder Mages, but those come once every couple turns... enough for him to recuperate from other attacks. He's not even "wtfhax" for being amazing at combat, it's his availability in which he's wtfhax for.About 15 chapters (I'm weighting the final chapter as 2, by the way) vs 9 chapters. Haar's offense kicks in for about 100% of those chapters; Reyson's kicks in for about 70%. Haar can probably gain like 40 or 50 EXP from the boss, even if he gets like 2-3 from the other units. I'm not saying it's the best way out, I'm saying it's the fastest way out and an option. Hell, he can get that Tomahawk from Ludveck (since Brom and the rest of them aren't very capable of fighting Ludveck, or taking the hordes of enemies down there at once) because of using the Hammer.Elincia, Brom and Mordecai do it just as well? Lets start with why that's false. (I'm quote some random, related points while I'm at it) - Elincia is weak to Crossbows/Bowguns. They OHKO her. A couple of early Warriors will have Crossbows and/or Bowguns. Haar can survive them. - Brom is a decent candidate, but he is a lot less accurate than Haar, and as a result gets ganged up more easily because he'll be hitting less, and Brom's HP/Defense aren't as high as Haar's either. - Some of the Axe Generals have Hammers, and he doesn't have the AS to fight back either - Mordecai has the laguz meter. If you're going to use laguz stones to refute this point; that's cool, except it hinders your own unit's performance. If you're going to use Olivi grass, then taking about two or three indirect attacks at once on top of two or three direct attacks will lower his laguz bar significantly. His ability to survive more than one turn on the enemy phase while keeping up with offense on the player phase puts him below Haar, who doesn't require much maintenance to use. - A Speedwing patches things up indeed since I don't think the favorable BEXP is a good enough argument (requires too much favor + you don't get much BEXP so he's getting 2~3 levels + we don't know the mechanics, and speed is probably a lower priority stat boost), and he deserves it over other units because, on top of making use of it, he has much more durability than everyone else, or has that borderline Speed where you're close to doubling pretty much everything. Granted, there are some enemies (namely Halberdiers and Snipers) that he won't double for another two or three level ups, but that's cool because he 2-rounds a lot of things in this chapter with a Steel Axe or Poleaxe, having consistent accuracy to boot. Mordecai and Geoffrey/Kieran are the only things that can really compete with this, and Geof/Kieran have durability that falls behind Haar's anyway. - Mordecai's resource consumption is even heftier, because it competes directly with your unit's as well. Anyways, tl;dr Haar >>> those three. Nobody says you have to one round generals. It's an option available, but it's not like he's going to constantly excercise that option; once every three attacks (33% chance makes just as much sense, also with Killer Axe) he's almost guaranteed a critical after doubling, so he one rounds every other General he comes across. 33% is roughly once in three. How does it make more or less sense to say one or three?Even then, against Generals one every three attacks is a one round (and he doubles them normally). He normally has 10-11 attack on them too, while they have HP in the mid 30s. Do the math. He doesn't need to be at 14 or 15 are good levels too.By the way, there are points from here that, if I don't answer to them, I agree. or sex, which Haar probably gets more of than Reyson Haar with celerity? Haar can definitely make more use of celerity - he goes through chapters faster that way, clears out any enemies that are just ready to annoy the shit out of you, and he can do it in a much more convenient way. All while being immune to terrain.Haar can't be overlooked to Titania with Celerity. Titania is Level 19, Haar Level 17 Name HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Titania 37.2 25.8 10.3 23.1 22.0 19.8 20.4 14.6 Haar 47.8 27.2 2.3 26.0 21.8 15.7 25.9 8.2 The only thing Titania really wins here is Resistance, in which case Haar has much better HP. Other than that, Haar gets lower Speed but is more likely to make use of the 2-3 speedwing than Titania is, so that Speed is actually 23.4ish at this point which is higher than Titania. On top of that, the Sages in this chapter are the Meteor Sages - in which case, both are taking damage in the mid to late teens from this douche bag. Haar, on the other hand, is taking six less damage per hit against the enemies who have plenty of attack to begin with (compare, six damage to 12 damage on average considering they have attacks in the 30s, with some having attacks in the late 20s). I'd rather give the Celerity to Haar - or just as good, Ike - than Titania because her survivability isn't as good as either of those two. Killing annoying enemies before they reach your already slow moving characters, and requiring them to go out of their way to kill them instead of advancing further is, in its own way, an advantage for your team. There actually aren't in that chapter from what I recall. However, there are plenty of Snipers and Swordmasters that have a tough time getting one rounded (if they are getting one rounded at all, let alone two rounded in select cases) that can break your line and attack Reyson. "Breaking" referring to going around, by the way; Haar can two round them pretty consistently and has an easier time reaching them. Actually, if he was Jesus he'd be pre-Level 1. You see, being an atheist and all means Jesus is pretty much a regular man... which is below most FE chars. Indeed, but I think that's kinda stupid now. That's cool, getting rid of Haar's competition. On turn 2 he can reach the Purge Bishops pretty easily, and still fly over the trees to fight against the Paladins and such nearby the boss as well as the other enemies. Haar doesn't need to go on a killing spree. He could if you let him but obviously he's not the only one entitled to EXP. Considering how you can easily use half the units you bring in the chapter, on top of the fact that there are still many slot available per team, I'm sure Haar can find some way to fit into Tibarn's team.Also, aiding in the bitchy chase for Izuka is pretty helpful, and reduces turn count if you're so concerned. If not, then protecting from Hawks, Ravens, and Red Dragons (the former two will have high AS, whereas the latter two will have higher defense stats) is a pretty good thing on its own, as well as taking a lot less damage from the cats and tigers. Tibarn can do it two but... having two units with similar function isn't a bad thing. Finally, Hawks and Ravens don't have trouble breaking past your defensive lines, who are also in fear of enemy tigers with their massive attack. Reyson is pretty good setup bait here. And Haar can be one of those attackers to fill the chokepoints, pretty easily too. There are plenty of enemies that come in from both sides. If he takes the top he doesn't even really need that much support; maybe another attacker to cover the chokepoint, but he can definitely handle the crossbow users a lot better than Naesala.The "weaklings" refer to the likes of Micaiah, Sanaki, Sigrun, and Leanne's individual durability. (Speaking of which, without Canto the way she uses Canto is really somewhat annoying to efficiently use). Naesala gets screwed over by Crossbow users by the way. They're accurate and only two are needed to kill him. Haar is immune to that shit, motherfucker! If you beat 4-E chapters fast, then Rafiel is better than Reyson. With boots, he can reach things quite quickly and use his instant, four turn Canto right away. So basically, they're both pretty much useless here.It's tough to refute your final chapter points. I won't bother, they'd be half-assed, not proving anything, and not factually right either considering Reyson > Haar in the Final. It wasn't in reference to Part IV. I just couldn't be bothered to change stuff around after thinking of it.If this sends and says "the opening and closing quote tags do not match" I will be PISSED ... and it did, GRR

Probably. Zihark can do some major damage with something like a Brave Sword and Nolan/Volug support and a transformed Volug does PRETTY damn well against laguz and Beorc. He has competition alright. Being the only Healer is a plus, but lower mid sounds fine for her. She has a hard time doing things after Part 3 (give her some credit with a physic and sleep), and before then she doesn't have ANY offense and, even if others need it, she needs it FAR more because she gets one hit KO'd. And doubled by what doesn't kill her in one hit. That's a massive minus, in my opinion.Why is someone with such offensive and defensive failure higher than, say, Mist who is a better overall healer due to a mount after promotion? Mist doesn't fail too hard in the parts of the game she's in (she's still damn brittle though), she fails a lot less than Laura, so why is Laura above her?

Actually Nolan would be better because of Crossbows + Beastfoe + Earth support. She can't even attack for ages, and at promotion her speed cap is pitiful and light magic just sucks in general. That pretty much sounds like Rhys.Even if she is the only healer, she has a damn hard time surviving without centralizing your defense around her.

And there's none in this game. So no reason to save money. ;/

Then sell one? No Funds rank in this game is pretty sweet. (Fenrir's probably the better deal)

I give up on getting my point across; it's not that I feel you're thick, but I think the wording is poor on top of not even getting what I'm trying to argue and why. Because I don't feel that using who's best as its own point is relevant unless you're debating outside the tier list discussion... rather than the tier list discussion itself. It's also me trying to get points across as if it were HM or something instead of NM... clearly the "NM enemies are made of paper" point comes back to bite me in the ass. In which case I'd definitely value Ogma's availability over a couple points in defense. Made of paper also attacks like paper which should render the lead in defense insignificant, so Ogma should pretty much be cool. Mekkah really covered about 70% of my argument well. I feel Gordin's needing it should be a factor for Nabarl, but "growing out of low AS" also applies to Nabarl as a Cavalier (which I believe you used in Caesar's case) which is a few things other things I'd like to point out. But there's one thing I don't quite agree with here either; If a character who is better than Erk after promotion is in a supposed priority level 3 in a game with 2 of their promotion item, he should still be guaranteed a slot above Erk. Obviously, if the lead as a promoted unit is slight then I'd place Erk due to the penalty of using one of the two Knight's Crest, but if it's more than slight (I'd say something like gaining E Axes after promotion, on top of having a powerful, fast support with another unit) then I'd definitely place that person above Erk. Which is what I'm trying to say.Finally, Doesn't this apply to every single magic and healing unit? And there I see Merric in top tier because of his capabilities as both.It's not that they do need to be constantly fenced (low defense is why anyone would need to be constantly fenced [in which case that's not only a case to case basis, but an individual flaw all the same]; not saying any of them have particularly high defense stats but...) it's that they don't gain the EXP to keep up. It's not that big a problem in FE DS where there's not much EXP to distribute to that many units anyway, but it can still become a problem.

I'd rather get Nosferatu.

It could've been a Hammerne I used on the Sword of Seals when it hit like 15 or something. Or physics.Ellen and Clarine have pathetic magic stats. >_>

Basically: it's almost always the enemy nation. FE4 had Thracia as the Wyverns, though.

you're a terrible person

You're wrong on so many levels. We have this if we want to find the "epitome of all their results." It even accounts probability - just click on a stat right after you click on a character.

I don't either. It's not like they come in on a different route with different stats like Gonzales and them do. Recruiting them in 3-E is a plus; I can't see it as a plus for them for being recruited back sooner. They're going to be doing pretty... average against the enemies (especially compared to your units).

I have a fucking S rank on Chapter 23. :D :D :D :D I got Sophia to Level 15. Her performance is underwhelming, but I babied her a couple kills; she gets a level up or somewhere close per kill. Saul and Ellen got a couple level ups too (Ellen is VERY close to promotion at this point, but I won't bother much; maybe I'll promote her this chapter and get her a couple kills). Beaten FE6 ranked. Final chapter: Roy ended up in the early teens as far as level is concerned, Fae around 10, and Ellen at 6 or 7. Everyone else was in their mid to late teens. Roy (Sword of Seals, Wyrmslayer) (B Alan B Lane) Clarine (Recover, Physic, Elfire, Hammerne) (A Rutger B Dieck) Dieck (Silver Axe, Killer Axe, Armads) (B Rutger B Clarine) Alan (Malte, Brave Lance) (A Lance B Roy) Rutger (Wo Dao, Killing Edge, Durandal) (A Clarine B Dieck) Ray (Nosferatu x3, Apocalypse) (A Lugh) Lugh (Aircalibur x3, Forblaze) (A Ray) Lance (Steel Axe, Silver Lance) (A Alan B Roy) Fae (Divine Dragonstone x30) Ellen (Lightning, Physic, Holy Maiden, Recover) Turn count 1: 20 2: 14 3: 18 4: 13 5: 17 6: 20 7: 18 8: 26 8x: 15 9: 15 10: 16 11: 16 12: 17 12x: 14 13: 22 14: 15 14x: 10 15: 13 16: 18 16x: 17 17: 15 18: 13 19: 13 20: 23 20x: 18 21: 21 (this chapter REALLY wasn't difficult) 21x: 31 22: 26 23: 19 24: 31 Final: 2 Total: 536 turns unless I did my math wrong Got an A rank :( http://i41.tinypic.com/2dlu04m.png I think it was the Holy Maiden staff. I used it once, then accidentally twice and I couldn't be fucked to go back to a previous save so I just went with it. >_>

Switching them over doesn't change their position if it makes them go lower (which I can actually see it doing), IMO unless you're willing to make a new entry for it. >_>

Minor thing (Mekkah): Why not just put Tana in that spot? lol, it's kinda pointless to have Tana right below... Tana within the same tier. Also what happened to Lute > Artur?

I'm sure that's taken into account, they don't have separate tier spots because of being recruited by the GMs. I don't see why you'd want to do that other than the sheer pleasure of seeing the Dawn Brigade suffer (as well as yourself) ALSO considering the very limited spots you have on the GMs. It's best you stick them with the Dawn Brigade anyway.

Once again, we're not in a tournament debate. This is irrelevant. That's actually apart of the "unsure" on a tier list. A unit's position is never, ever set in stone which is why we're debating the tier list in the first place. Which is why comparisons can't even be made in the first place. After promotion Ogma can be stuck on the right end of WTA. Nabarl's never in advantage. Not when it comes to ranking tier lists. Everyone has the same priority when it comes to promotion, everyone is equally penalized for taking away a promotion item from another unit on a tier list. On a tier list. It's double standard to assume otherwise.I've yet to see a non-HHM tier list discussion on this board anyway to even see that argument. And FESS' tier list didn't really penalize Kent/Sain/Lowen at all for Knight's Crest predicament, from what I recall. (Well, quanta and the rest of us were relatively new on debating so that's pretty much understandable). Then re-paste it.(As far as I'm aware, you just gave words like "this unit sucks anyway" vs "this unit's speed sucks"; you never showed why the unit's speed sucks). Knight Crest predicament: Everyone competes for the Knight Crest. Just because a unit is better doesn't make him more entitled to it. So you punish the Knight Crest users equally because everyone has to compete. Hero Crest is the same deal. Archers don't fail because they bog down other units (the fact that they can't get counter attacked is actually a boon considering how it can weaken enemies), but they don't have the capabilities to attack on enemy phase which hinder their own performance. They, as a result, will get very few kills and not level up all that consistently especially since a majority of the enemies will sport good defense. It doesn't bog down your own team; assuming non-favoritism towards the Archer, the Archer just, in general, ends up pretty mediocre. Unless we're talking Shinon, who can kill pretty damn well (also has Crossbows and a Double Bow for the final chapter). But this isn't FE10. Or you can set the example instead of following a fallacy, lolHow erroneous everything else is... is a pitiful excuse for how erroneous one's own judgment is.

Seeing Joshua below Tana irks me, especially when there's a tier difference. Joshua has good speed, passable attack (enough to kill things later on, especially with a Killing Edge) and availability on his side... as well as ease of use. I believe he has support with stuff like Natasha, Franz and Seth as early game units, and later on Cormag and MUCH later on Knoll. He's got a Wind affinity to buff up the attack too, even if evade is better; it's not like he doesn't evade things already. Tana has supports but... her ease of use has some difficulties. Paired with low con of a Pegasus before promotion (affecting her AS and evade) and archer weak.

Or perhaps close range combat when he uses a Bow? >_>

Ymir should be at Low/Low-mid. Not sure where, though.

He's destroying everyone in performance in 2-P, he's destroying most people (not stuff like Elincia and Leanne) in performance in 2-E. He's ahead of Elincia and Leanne too because he can take the entire east side to himself, while Nephenee can have a hard time surviving enemy turns and Brom is rather slow. Haar needs healing every couple turns; a Vulnerary can do to prepare for the thunder mage or Elincia's Mend/Physic... and Haar can, after attacking on his own turn, flee back and get Leanne to bring him back.Or he can beat the chapter in a couple turns with a Hammer. IT's not that hard to count to 10 and send a hand axe that motherfucker's way. If this is the one with the shitloads of cliffs, his movement >>>>>>>>> everyone else's. There are like two. Which a vulnerary use can easily fix. Haar is a candidate to ferry him. Janaff and Ulki come to Ike anyway. I'm inclined to agree. Leanne can't take a shot for shit. Tanith and Sigrun have a terrible time with attacks too; isn't there an Elwind sage nearby as well as a load of physical units? I actually don't think Haar needs support.Elsleep has like two uses and he's too far away to get hit. You've also got Micaiah with humongous move to use a Restore staff or something on him, and Purges are fairly inaccurate. If you get hit by a Purge, he can still afford to use a vulnerary; in fact he can actually afford to pick off the Purge Bishop and he can do it faster than most others. Save Naesala. Competition with the Black Knight? Pah, he has two move per turn.

Explain this statement's relevance to the tier list. How often they're being used != whatever argument you have for or against his, or anyone's, tier list position. Except, we don't know when we're judging it. We're judging it now, aren't we? Nothing is sure, that's why it's an open debate. If it wasn't an open debate, you'd just be like "here's the official tier list, let's not discuss it and just bask in all its glory!" instead of "here's a tier list, see what's wrong where you see fit." The latter implies that nothing is certain about the tier list, therefore another unit's position should and will have nothing to do with one unit's position. Which is why punishing Karel solely for missing out on Harken is fallacy. If we did know, we'd be having a debate tournament on the tier list. But we don't know because we're debating the tier list right now, where anything's subject to debate. I'm having a hard time getting this point across (others can confirm this if they want), but it's valid once it does. Nabarl's losing Speed, tied with Defense and Strength (4 HP vs about two defense seems pretty balanced). He went from losing move somewhat to losing move slightly. I'm not saying it's the best possible option, I'm just saying that it closes the Speed gap. Ogma has higher promotion priority because he has a level lead, thus reaching Level 20 earlier (with better offense), if anything. But that has nothing to do with what we're arguing, since there's no such thing as a "promotion priority" until we host a debate tournament. I asked specifically for statistics. If you've supposedly already said it, then copy+paste it; it really isn't a big deal. If you haven't, then you should go ahead and do it.For the record, you don't need to waste your stat boosters as soon as you possibly can. I'm not sure how you'll respond to this, but you really don't. I'd prefer you do it, I trust you more with it.

Oh yeah he does. <_< But at least he leaves.