Lord Raven

Did FE5 even have any terrible bosses?

Haar x Oscar gives the same benefits (durability wise) as Ike x Soren.

You're missing the point of judging a tier list. And your statistics are...? And guess what? We're judging a tier list, we don't know who is worth a damn and unusable. That's exactly what we're discussing; to say anyone is worth a damn or usable as a pre-assumption for a tier list is totally missing the point. They were moved down to Bottom due to their own faults. Marich is still not guaranteed the spirit dusts because we don't know who's "worth a damn" and who's "not" when judging it. Only after we've finished for the time being do we know, and discussions on the tier list assume we're still not sure, so in that case we can't say "x" is worth more of a damn than "y" because we're not sure as a result. There's no point to your own tier list other than to increase the size of your massive ego if you're going to be biased towards the upper tiered characters because they're worth a damn.In an actual tournament-style debate, your argument would actually hold water because it requires bias towards the unit you're arguing; you're exactly trying to argue x is better than y as opposed to putting his name on a quality list, and the tier list is made and agreed upon when having done this. But we're not in an official debate like that; we're in a debate where we have to judge every single unit on exactly the same grounds and therefore, Merich is not the only one entitled to spirit dusts and Nabarl to speedwings. Others are equally entitled. Nabarl went from winning move by two to winning move by one. Going from an okay lead to a slight lead.My next point refers to Nabarl having little way of closing their gaps in HP, because I was going for the fact that Ogma also has the Hero class available on top of other classes to give him even more HP! Same with Strength, Defense, etc. Ogma can close the gaps pretty damn well with a level up or two in different classes. Nabarl... can't. Only by one. Ogma has a level lead, so it's pretty much tied.

Three Ballisticians out of the two you get in the game...? (I have little clue how WiFi works actually, someone explain).

At that point is probably a key phrase.You could save it for later when certain units are a couple points from doubling. You could just use it then and allow units that you have already recruited to get closer to doubling, instead of shunning their doubling chances altogether. This is bias towards Nabarl because he's a character that instantaneously (under your situations, anyway; which will not always be true, considering you didn't even give a statistical proof as to why each one wouldn't need it anyway, just words which I have little inclination to believe) would benefit only from that chapter. And because he's not the only one that's able to use it. I'm not arguing who makes use of it, I'm arguing who uses it. This shouldn't matter on a tier list, which is judging who is worth a damn and who is not. There is no pre-assumption when judging a tier list as to who is good as who is not. Post-assumption is when you can make that judgment; when the tier list is finalized. But there's no post-assumption here, since a tier list is never final. It makes up for the defense, though. Quite a margin? This wasn't even refuted. It wasn't even much of a margin; it seemed pretty balanced to either side. Slight lead to Nabarl on second thought, but there's his way of getting move. Nabarl can't get much more Strength or HP, or Ogma's (however slight) win in availability. He can get a level or two's worth of EXP from that chapter being your strongest unit there.Even with the Hero Ogma's offense is better, whereas it's on par as a Horseman. The only thing Nabarl has here, then, is move seeing as Hero Ogma leads a lot in HP and only loses 2 move as a Hero (which really isn't that significant).

Just play it a bit more carefully if you're unsure. You really don't want to get screwed over by lack of battle saves. (That same stuff pisses me off too).

The Wendell archetype (guys who are tutors in some way) - Wendell, Sety, Pent, Saleh Marich archetype (unpromoted Mage, green hair) - Marich, Levin/Arthur, Asvel, Lugh, Nino, Soren Gordin (Green archer) - Gordin, Ryan, Midir, Wolt (It's a yellow-Green color)/Sue/Shin, Rebecca/Rath, Rolf

It's 3-13. I'd like to place 1-3 as my hardest because two many things start to double you around this time.

(You see with NM I'd include WTA has part of my argument, but you just made life easier) Haar > Reyson Haar has an eyepatch. There's my eyepatch comment. Lame, but I don't care. What exactly makes Haar > Reyson? Well, Haar beats Reyson in most stats. Compare their bases: Reyson HP 40 Str 3 Mag 5 Skl 5 Spd 11 Lck 31 Def 6 Res 17 Haar HP 46 Str 23 Mag 2 Skl 24 Spd 20 Lck 13 Def 23 Res 7 We can easily agree that many of the enemies are physical units, correct? I'm going to place an estimate around 75%. Against 75% of the enemies in the game, Haar is taking their attacks a lot better. While not doubling that often (against Mages? Maybe. Against Armors? Definitely. Against everything else? Well he does a lot and takes little so who cares?), he's not getting doubled either. On top of that, the enemies who are doubling him in the first place do little damage to him. Reyson can't attack and is limited to 10 EXP per turn unless you get him attacked. But Reyson, while untransformed, is guaranteed to get killed or almost get killed when attacked - he is doubled (11 speed) and only has 50 evade to deal with enemy attacks. 6 defense is not cool either; 40 HP is his only saving grace and that isn't even reliable (enemies in part III tend to have 16 or 17 strength at least [and I'm being gracious here], doing the math if they have something that's at least 9 or 10 might he will die easily unless transformed). If he gets attacked while transformed, it takes away a potential turn he can revitalize your units with. What has Haar to fear in Part III? Pretty much nothing aside from a Bolting Sage in Chapter 2. Because he has offense (unlike Reyson, who only has Cards to attack - hah, that stuff is worth selling for money which the Greil Mercs have little of than used with a char who has no offense otherwise) and defense against 75% of the enemies in the game. Now's a good time to mention that he has access to the strongest weapon in the game. It's inaccurate, but Haar has the Skill and Luck to compensate. Lets run down Haar, specifically now. 2-P Marcia and Elincia can't take on those Wyverns, and neither can Nealuchi because they don't do enough damage and take far too much. While Leanne helps when she gets kidnapped, they still don't do that much damage or dodge reliably. Then comes Haar, and when recruited by Marcia the enemies can't do much, if any, damage to him at all. He one or two rounds (IIRC) every single wyvern in that chapter except the boss, who Nealuchi/Elincia/Marcia don't even come close to kill anything. 2-E The only other character here that can compete his usefulness is Elincia. Because of Amiti and healing, nothing more. Haar can take an entire side by himself and only need to heal once every couple turns. An occassional thunder mage might come by but can easily handle that - everything else takes minimal damage and Haar returns with massive damage. Against armors he can use a Hammer, against everything else he can use a Killer Axe and hope to score a critical once every three shots. With the hand axe he can fight indirectly. Hell, you can even skip all this by injecting a bunch of BEXP into him to give him a lot of Str/Skl/Def, and eventually speed/HP when Str/Def max out. From there, he can easily kill the boss after a turn or and save you a load of trouble of having to go throughout the chapter. It's nearly impossible to beat this chapter without using Haar. In 2-P and 2-E, he is raping every other unit in overall offense and defense. At this point, I'm going to guess that he's Level 16 if you don't go by the 1 turn method. HP 47.5 Str 26.5 ±1.4 Mag 2.2 ±0.8 Skl 26.0 ±0.5 Spd 21.5 ±1.4 Lck 15.3 ±1.7 Def 25.7 ±1.1 Res 8.0 ±1.4 The one turn method has different stats, notably higher in Strength, Skill, and Defense (and potentially Speed/HP), but I dunno what they are since I don't recall if we know the specifics on BEXP. 3-2 Finally, his first major threat (major is a rather liberal word for it, in fact; I wouldn't even go that far!) At this point, he's roughly on par if not a bit better than most of your Greil Mercs - who at this point have gained probably a level up or two in the previous two chapters. So he needs less EXP to be good and still beating the rest of your team. In fact, he can fight against the southeastern enemies easier and reach the boss way before your Greil Mercs because of his flying utility. Man, do I wish I was Haar in this game. 3-3 He burns the cargo. He can easily fly over enemy things and terrain disadvantages that your units will inevitably get, and helps burn the cargo. He can survive most of the hits directed at him too, considering how strong his Defense is. 3-4 So yeah the rest of your unit has movement disadvantage on the cliffs. Haar doesn't! Haar can easily reach the enemy units here and start killing them, one by one. because he is able to two round at this point (your Greil Mercs are two rounding as well, certain ones are three rounding so his offense is still ahead; as is his defense as a flier). And he has the Hammer to kill the boss easier, as well as the random other Armors in this chapter that some of your units will otherwise have trouble with. 3-5 This is where him and Reyson complete. It's a protect mission, and Haar can hold enemy lines coming from the South quite easily. Reyson needs a turn break to use the laguz stone, then after the fifth turn (and two turns subsequently) he needs an Olivi Grass. So that's at least three turns wasted if you want to hold the fort for the full time. If not? You can send Haar by himself to kill enemies once again, because he isn't object to terrain bonuses and such. Reyson can help circumvent this arguably, but there are often reinforcements coming in from all sides and his frailty starts to show, especially since he needs constant protection. 3-7 A battle with a swamp. Your units have a tough time traversing the river, but Haar sure as hell doesn't! He can take out annoying Wyvern enemies, or take the entire west side by himself (although there are a couple thunder mages, but a vulnerary or two takes care of that ). And he can travel with your main group, baiting/weakening enemies and helping kill the annoying ones that are out of reach, because your units have a tough time reaching them. Reyson needs the first turn once again, and has four turns where he needs to use the Olivi Grass to stay transformed. Not too much of a hindrance on him, but he still has a hard time surviving hits. Especially since there are a multitude of things here - Swordmasters, a buffed up Zihark from the Dawn Brigade being one of them, Crossbow users, Wind mages... and axe users will have a hell of a time with him too. He shouldn't be getting ganged up on, yeah, nor should he be getting attacked, but the fact of the matter is that he needs to stay the fuck away from the front in order to stay safe. Which can be a hassle especially since very few characters will ever be killing on their own turn. Haar also has the potential to promote here. Coming in around Level 16 should've given him four levels to grow since Part III, which is pretty realistic considering he's probably gotten a lot of kills over the chapters he's been in. 3-8 Haar is penalized here for it being indoors. So are your other mounts (basically, Titania and Oscar...). Reyson is probably more useful than Haar here because his flying advantage doesn't mean that much, but offensively Haar is still ahead especially since he should be promoted as of 3-7. He still beats the rest of the squad in overall; in fact his competition now are Janaff and Ulki. And lets not get into that; they both compete with Reyson for the Laguz Stone, and giving them the Laguz Stone to transform early takes it away from Reyson which attacks your own unit. If not, then his competition takes three turns to get up to paar (ha ha ha). So he remains a consistent force of your team. 3-10 He still is ahead in movement. He can save Elincia from dying, who's just asking to be killed by staying in the middle of the field (idiot) by getting in front of her and trying to intercept enemy attacks. Then precede to helping pick off some of the more annoying enemies in there, like the Bishops with Purge and using a Hammer to kill down the Generals before any Sage can reach them. Reyson does fine, just not as well as Haar since Haar makes full use of his offense, defense, and mobility here. 3-11 Reyson isn't in this chapter for once. Just Haar. Furthermore, Haar is immune to traps which your other units are not immune to. He also assists in getting your units to circumvent these traps, something Reyson can't do because he doesn't exist in this chapter. In many ways, he helps this chapter go by faster because he is immune to the potholes. If you don't know how to circumvent them, Haar can rescue basically any character except a mounted unit, due to his massive Wt; he can lift them to the other side of the potholes right next to where that one guy places a Light Rune. Your Hawks and freshly recruited Falconknights can also do this, but his existence speeds up the process considering two of those four others are forced. 3-F There are _so_ many enemies here, and Reyson cannot afford to get hit. Haar can, although there's a Sleep staff and a Bolting Sage around. Your Dawn Brigade, likely to have decent leveled units, can easily take down Reyson while Haar is affected very little by them because he's still ahead of your team. And in such a short chapter, his use only exists in about three or four moves - first turn is Laguz Stone while the next three are routing the enemies. Haar is, in fact, likely to be the guy taking a lot of counter attacks and being able to dish them back while taking little damage. Part IV I'll start by saying this; Reyson is stuck with Tibarn's group, who has a lot of distance to cover anyway. He's fairly useful in those chapters, but Haar can suck up and dish out the hits that he takes from the laguz quite easily, on top of the hits that he takes from the Beorc. The Blizzard Sage? Him or Tibarn are killing him. The Crossbows? Him or Tibarn. Those two pose the most threat to him out of anything in the chapters, and he is sure to get hit by either of them and take tons of damage, as well as draining his laguz-o-meter. Then the other chapters. Haar isn't doing all that stellar in the Greil route; he's doing fine, on par with other units (actually, pretty much on par with Ike, but Nailah is doing a lot better than both anyway; Ike is doing better than 90% of your army). In the Silver Army route, he's doing stellar. You have not one, not two, not three, not four, but five frail units that are forced to be in the chapter that you must protect. Leanne, Sanaki, Micaiah, Sothe, and Sigrun (Sigrun to less of an extent, but Sigrun sucks too much for HM) and Haar can easily protect against those two. He takes little damage from everything considering there are only like three magic using units here, and the only one doing better than him is Naesala. Endgame is where Reyson has the Laguz Gem. They are all short chapters, so he only has the effect for about a turn. Rafiel is a better choice here given something like Pass, Boots and/or Celerity so he can reach and give four units their move from turn 1, whereas Reyson needs a Laguz Gem to do that. Haar still sustains his tank status, and in fact gets one of the strongest weapons in the game; Urvan. 22 Might with about 110 accuracy. At this point his AS is about 28 or 29 and his attack is in the 50s; he's doing a lot of damage. In the endgame he fares worse than only about five units in your army; and those are the laguz royals. He's on par with the rest, or even better. And Savior is a mighty fine skill on him, considering his ability to rescue almost anything and travel long distances for a long time. So basically, availability, Canto, flying, offense, defense > giving many units another move after the first turn. It's rather halfassed (I've only debated like three times before), but good luck.

Funds is a pretty easy rank in this game. I have like 12 or 13 units promoted now and my funds are still A.

I still find it unbelievable that on HM, Archers in that chapter are better than Wolt. >_>;

I think FE9's Elincia could make more of an Est than Tormod, since her growths are actually kinda good if I recall correctly.

Reserved, I'll whip up an opener by tomorrow since I have homework to do. (Also, I tend to avoid trying to be funny in my debate posts but I guess I'll mention the eyepatch) Oh, question: Difficulty? I'm thinking NM but HM is cool too.

You don't have to play with him for a long time. Just enough to get literally two level ups.

A random Knight, Fighter, Mercenary level up thing http://www.feplanet.net/index.php?fep=game...amp;id=44&c[5]=24&c[6]=24&c[7]=20&c[8]=24&c[9]=24&c[10]=24&c[11]=20&c[12]=24&c[13]=24&c[14]=24&c[15]=14&c[16]=14&c[17]=14&c[18]=14&c[19]=14&c[20]=14&c[21]=17&c[22]=17&c[23]=17&c[24]=17&c[25]=17&c[26]=17&c[27]=17&c[28]=17&c[29]=17&c[30]=17&c[31]=17&c[32]=17&c[33]=17&c[34]=17&c[35]=17&c[36]=17&c[37]=17&c[38]=17&c[39]=17&c[40]=17 EDIT: okay let me find the averages I input again Now he's pretty much exactly the same as Nabarl, with a significant amount more HP. Assuming full Cav Nabarl. This also assumes he's a Fighter at Level 20, so the HP/Strength might drop slightly... and the defense is subject to increase. But the Horseman only has one less move. His growth is only 5% less then. Switching back to Merc gets the base defense back.Archer's speed lead narrows the defense lead about as much.

Alan/Samson archetype then... Alan and Samson, obviously Johan/Johalva Sety/Cyas (thx Levin) Karel/Harken Nasir/Ena, Tibarn/Giffca/Naesala Chapter 2?

Level 10ish. I get Sain and Kent around that level as well, Erk to 7 or 8, Serra to probably 5, Matthew to around 7 or 8, and everyone else is at base level or a level or two higher. oh right, Lucius is like the same level as Erk

Sure, I'll go with Haar. You want me to open/make topic or what?

Etzel doesn't use dark magic. They're called Navarres actually. Johan/Johalva to an extent.

Nabarl has better Strength? Really? Ogma can easily get that defense lead narrowed with a few levels as a Knight, and he can narrow the move with the Horseman class after promotion (which, once again, puts him at Nabarl's level quite easily). Better weapon selection is when they're equal. Of course, after promotion they're equal. Before promotion, Ogma can change classes to Fighter if you're so worried about Lances (so he can get the advantage) whereas Nabarl can't. and frankly... Nabarl's AS is poor [as a Cav] for a while. Ogma's is not.

Earth Seals. And he probably does buy them near the end.

I'm sorry if this isn't relevant but who's the blue haired guy between Eliwood and Hector in the bottom row? The guy next to Lundgren (Eagler?) is also missing his left shoulder. And I can't seem to find Hector's brother.

I actually don't mind having a debate right now. FE6, FE7, FE8, FE9, FE10, FE DS are pretty much what I know enough about... mainly FE7, FE9, and 10. For DS I haven't played H5 so I'd rather debate like NM (lol) or H2 or 3.

Gatrie has speed and power in FE10.

To be honest the group I sent down (Klein, Lugh, Ray, Clarine, Dieck, Karel, Percival) is taking them pretty well. It's just the eastern group (why did I even put Ellen in this chapter, she's 12.99 and has poor speed) because it has Lilina with 29 HP and only a B Gonzales/C Roy to fall back on (Roy has C Lilina, B Lance and B Alan, and they're a raping trio; Miledy and Zeiss are also destroying everything ever). >_> Still though, the reinforcements in this chapter are crazy. My supports: Roy: B Alan, B Lance, C Lilina Alan: A Lance, B Roy Lance: A Alan, B Roy Lilina: B Gonzales, C Roy Gonzales: B Lilina Miledy: C Zeiss Lugh: C Chad, B Ray Ray: B Lugh Rutger: B Dieck, A Clarine Clarine: B Dieck, A Rutger Dieck: B Rutger, B Clarine B EXP B Power A Funds A Battle Skill A Tactics A Survival A Overall Highest level: Level 13 Lugh Average level (main group): Level 7ish People honestly think 21 is the hardest, though? Because I found 7 a bitch (relatively). The game really isn't that hard especially ranked, IMO...