OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

I think it is when you're the only guy who can do it for a while. The ability to easy button some maps, fly out over obstacles and take hits in places where your other units can't get to, etc, is pretty nice. He's not competing for that job until 3-8.

"Easy button" which maps? 2-E perhaps, though I don't know how viable that strategy actually is. 3-3 is mainly for the Cargo at the very back and the rest is easy to get either way. 3-4 I need to get both Ike and Ranulf up to the top anyway, and there are plenty of Sages along the way to fry Haar if you're too hasty. From there thigns just get easier (Reyson comes).

OK, but:

1) 3-11

2) Part 4

I don't want to send a hawk with Tibarn.

If it's a CRK/Tanith, they just have to wait a map before building the support, but it's not like they were very likely to support someone else anyway. If it's a Hawk or Ranulf, yeah, that sucks, but it's only one map.

I don't see a huge issue with sending a Hawk to Tibarn's route either. They're helpful in the desert for sure, but they're really good anywhere, and I have no shortage of fliers in the desert anyway. Plus, in the swamp they get to say they can counter everything aside from Izuka and Dragons, which could help build Strike.

I don't remember your Raisin > Rafiel argument. I look at Rafiel's fragility in 4-E-1 and notice that I have so many asskickers on my team that I don't care, because dead units can't hurt my heron.

I look at Reyson's +3 transformed move and flight. Canto is a bonus, because it means I have to worry less about keeping him safe (There are 3 paths after all).

I look at 4-E-2 and look at a one-turn Wishblade clear.

That is, after all, the one place I admitted Rafiel might have an advantage, but only might. It's only if Ike can kill BK at the end of turn 1 and you didn't bring another Archsage. Actually, if you do that (one turn clear against BK), you don't even need another Archsage, since Reyson can still Vigor Sanaki or Micaiah on the only turn we're using on this map. So I don't need Rafiel for a one-turn Wishblade clear at all.

However, if I don't go one turn and instead decide to nab some free experience (Please tell me you recall going over this before. If I sacrifice some turns now to save a few later, it's a net +), Reyson is better overall for the previous reasons.

I look at 4-E-3 and beyond, Raffy is not even getting attacked anymore. He might get killed by the AOE in 4-E-5, but not until after he's done more than Raisin.

Reyson can move out of the way for others to attack Auras as well.

Well, yes, yes it is. Haar & Titania are very similar units, they both have good durability (or awesome durability in Haar's case), but rather poor offence. However, Haar's flight means that he can save many more turns than Titania overall, especially in chapters 3-3, 3-7, 3-11 and 4-4.

Haar isn't saving any turns in 3-7 since the turn count is concrete (it will always be done after exactly 12 turns), and I can't see him making a huge impact on 3-11 either except for covering potholes, which is cool, but I have no shortage of other fliers at this point anyway. And 4-4, wtf? I'll assume you meant 4-3.

And then after seeing Narga's stats showing that Titania can actually pull an offense lead, (and it's an offense lead that got Mia up where she is, so the same should apply here)I'm even less convinced there's a tier gap between the two.

Also, it's worth noting that Titania gets Swords, which probably turn out to be more useful in the long run due to Wyrmslayers than Lances.

[Original Alear]

"Easy button" which maps? 2-E perhaps, though I don't know how viable that strategy actually is. 3-3 is mainly for the Cargo at the very back and the rest is easy to get either way. 3-4 I need to get both Ike and Ranulf up to the top anyway, and there are plenty of Sages along the way to fry Haar if you're too hasty. From there thigns just get easier (Reyson comes).

In 2-E flying makes him and Elincia incredibly easy to vigor together, and they are easily the two best choices for it. I doubt I could get nullify and the dracoshield both and kill ludveck w/out his help. In 3-3 he has saved my turncount when a "miss" would normally cause me to get stuck in a few places. In 3-4 he's excellent. I could be wrong, but I don't think that there are any 2 thunder sages grouped together (also, canto helps if you get hit, and 1-5% chance to crit is beat out by his 20% chance to take no dmg with cancel). Maybe it's because I don't use olivi grass to make reyson transform early in 3-5, but I usually find Haar great at clearing the front gate - admittedly, Titania is almost as good here, but Haar can be a little more selective in what he kills first thanks to crossing ledges.

Admittedly, I probably have problems understanding Haar's fear of thunder sages only because "it's never happened to me".

[Florete]

"Easy button" which maps? 2-E perhaps, though I don't know how viable that strategy actually is. 3-3 is mainly for the Cargo at the very back and the rest is easy to get either way. 3-4 I need to get both Ike and Ranulf up to the top anyway, and there are plenty of Sages along the way to fry Haar if you're too hasty. From there thigns just get easier (Reyson comes).

In 2-E flying makes him and Elincia incredibly easy to vigor together, and they are easily the two best choices for it. I doubt I could get nullify and the dracoshield both and kill ludveck w/out his help. In 3-3 he has saved my turncount when a "miss" would normally cause me to get stuck in a few places. In 3-4 he's excellent. I could be wrong, but I don't think that there are any 2 thunder sages grouped together (also, canto helps if you get hit, and 1-5% chance to crit is beat out by his 20% chance to take no dmg with cancel). Maybe it's because I don't use olivi grass to make reyson transform early in 3-5, but I usually find Haar great at clearing the front gate - admittedly, Titania is almost as good here, but Haar can be a little more selective in what he kills first thanks to crossing ledges.

Yeah, he's definitely great in 2-E, I never denied that. And in 3-4, I believe the two Sages on either side of the west ballistae are both Thunder, though one could be Fire. And why would Haar still have Cancel? He's one of the worst members of the team to use it. Losing no capacity from it means nothing when so many units can use it better/need it more.

Admittedly, I probably have problems understanding Haar's fear of thunder sages only because "it's never happened to me".

*Has been the victim of Haar being fried by a Thunder Sage crit on turn 13 of 2-E.*

Cue cries of "F***ing mother f***er godf***ingdammit!"

Edited September 29, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

"Easy button" which maps? 2-E perhaps, though I don't know how viable that strategy actually is. 3-3 is mainly for the Cargo at the very back and the rest is easy to get either way. 3-4 I need to get both Ike and Ranulf up to the top anyway, and there are plenty of Sages along the way to fry Haar if you're too hasty. From there thigns just get easier (Reyson comes).

In 2-E flying makes him and Elincia incredibly easy to vigor together, and they are easily the two best choices for it. I doubt I could get nullify and the dracoshield both and kill ludveck w/out his help. In 3-3 he has saved my turncount when a "miss" would normally cause me to get stuck in a few places. In 3-4 he's excellent. I could be wrong, but I don't think that there are any 2 thunder sages grouped together (also, canto helps if you get hit, and 1-5% chance to crit is beat out by his 20% chance to take no dmg with cancel). Maybe it's because I don't use olivi grass to make reyson transform early in 3-5, but I usually find Haar great at clearing the front gate - admittedly, Titania is almost as good here, but Haar can be a little more selective in what he kills first thanks to crossing ledges.

Admittedly, I probably have problems understanding Haar's fear of thunder sages only because "it's never happened to me".

Yeah, I've let him get attacked by some thunder sages because I didn't see a better way and he hasn't been burned yet, but that's not enough for me to discount the fact it's annoying.

Also, there aren't any spots with two thunder sages close together. But there is a thunder sage at the first supply he can burn, and there is also a thunder sage near a senator that I choose to have Haar near to in order to block the senator and prevent Heather from needing to chase him down through dangerous territory. I'm wondering if I should have Ilyana take over the DBs pure water (they don't need it in part 3, no magic enemies aside from 3-12 where Tauroneo is) and Haar with Nullify and pure water might reach 4HKO, not sure.

Admittedly, I probably have problems understanding Haar's fear of thunder sages only because "it's never happened to me".

*Has been the victim of Haar being fried by a Thunder Sage crit on turn 13 of 2-E.*

I just get Marcia to kill them, Elincia to kill the crossbow users (yay for 2HKO with amiti) and Haar does other things. I never let a thunder sage attack Haar in that chapter. It's actually another one of the things I'm a fan of Marcia for, since Nealuchi might need grassing that turn and Leanne only vigors 2 panels. (Elincia and Haar/Marcia, usually, for me). Marcia is 4HKOd with crit, and one time she was critted by them, but that didn't bother me any since she was still alive.

why oh why is my favourite character given so little str/availability that even I'm not tempted to attempt to argue her into upper mid?

Edited September 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

"Easy button" which maps? 2-E perhaps, though I don't know how viable that strategy actually is. 3-3 is mainly for the Cargo at the very back and the rest is easy to get either way. 3-4 I need to get both Ike and Ranulf up to the top anyway, and there are plenty of Sages along the way to fry Haar if you're too hasty. From there thigns just get easier (Reyson comes).

Haar gets the 3-2 boss faster than anyone, 3-3 cargo is important, Ike can't keep up with Ranulf in 3-4, Haar pwns Lombroso in 3-5 faster than anyone (blah blah Energy Drop blah blah Drop will never save you as many turns as a boss kill here), he gets to immediately act and fuck shit up in 3-10 (not an easy button but I am running out of good chapters), 3-11 is Sieze and Ike has Raggy (do I need to go on?).

If it's a CRK/Tanith, they just have to wait a map before building the support, but it's not like they were very likely to support someone else anyway. If it's a Hawk or Ranulf, yeah, that sucks, but it's only one map.

I don't see a huge issue with sending a Hawk to Tibarn's route either. They're helpful in the desert for sure, but they're really good anywhere, and I have no shortage of fliers in the desert anyway. Plus, in the swamp they get to say they can counter everything aside from Izuka and Dragons, which could help build Strike.

Nice for them if it works out in your run, sucks for them if it doesn't, because Raisin has no choices about where he goes or when he exists.

I look at Reyson's +3 transformed move and flight. Canto is a bonus, because it means I have to worry less about keeping him safe (There are 3 paths after all).

I see Rafiel giving me four extra dudes on the first critical turn. Canto's bonus doesn't help me kill dudes, it helps me keep Raisin alive, which I can also do by killing dudes that might attack. Rafiel is a pacifist, but embodies the mantra that offense is the best defense. Irony.

That is, after all, the one place I admitted Rafiel might have an advantage, but only might. It's only if Ike can kill BK at the end of turn 1 and you didn't bring another Archsage. Actually, if you do that (one turn clear against BK), you don't even need another Archsage, since Reyson can still Vigor Sanaki or Micaiah on the only turn we're using on this map. So I don't need Rafiel for a one-turn Wishblade clear at all.

You wanna nitpick? OK. I get a one-turn clear AND the Wishblade AND I kill some random generic red shirt. Advantage: Rafiel.

However, if I don't go one turn and instead decide to nab some free experience (Please tell me you recall going over this before. If I sacrifice some turns now to save a few later, it's a net +), Reyson is better overall for the previous reasons.

I am pretty confident that the best 10+ people on my team can scorch the eyebrows off of anyone who is in attacking range of Rafiel.

Reyson can move out of the way for others to attack Auras as well.

Raisin is spending the first turn of 4-E-5 gnawing on a stone. Rafiel lets me get down to business right now. This chapter, of all chapters, is where speed should count for something.

Also, it's worth noting that Titania gets Swords, which probably turn out to be more useful in the long run due to Wyrmslayers than Lances.

I think that Wyrms are over-rated outside of Part 3. Nobody is manly enough to ORKO Reds cleanly with them in 4-E-3, not even Ike, and you give up 2-range. Haar takes Brave for 1-range, has four chances of Stun. Goodnight Irene.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Reyson can move out of the way for others to attack Auras as well.

Raisin is spending the first turn of 4-E-5 gnawing on a stone. Rafiel lets me get down to business right now. This chapter, of all chapters, is where speed should count for something.

Maybe my team was just stupidly overpowered and too high leveled thanks to routing maps I didn't need to rout, but 2 turning with Reyson is pretty easy. 2 turning with Rafiel is easy too. 1 turning with Reyson is impossible. 1 turning with Rafiel requires a very specific team to be 20/20/20, though I suppose it might be possible to achieve at lower levels, not sure. Still, considering I can kill all the spirits on turn 1 and take out 3 or 4 auras depending on whether or not Shinon decides to miss at 3 range, I'm not too worried about Reyson getting stoned.

Also, it's worth noting that Titania gets Swords, which probably turn out to be more useful in the long run due to Wyrmslayers than Lances.

I think that Wyrms are over-rated outside of Part 3. Nobody is manly enough to ORKO Reds cleanly with them in 4-E-3, not even Ike, and you give up 2-range. Haar takes Brave for 1-range, has four chances of Stun. Goodnight Irene.

Well, there is white dragons and trading. I suppose whites can be KOed without the wyrms after the sage barrage I usually do, and reds can be KOd after Micaiah gets done with them on enemy phase.

Oh, 77/38 or 75/36. To 6HKO, Haar needs to do 13 damage per shot with a brave. I guess 49 mt is actually reasonable (though it requires level 20/8 with a +mt support and 20/11 without), but 51 mt needs 20/11 and a +mt support. Still, 20/11 should happen by now, and you could give him a +mt support. I guess it works.

Oh, and Ike w/ Mia and max str has 72 mt with a wyrmslayer. So Ena allows the ORKO on even the strongest reds. But this is basically a one guy thing.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Maybe my team was just stupidly overpowered and too high leveled thanks to routing maps I didn't need to rout, but 2 turning with Reyson is pretty easy. 2 turning with Rafiel is easy too. 1 turning with Reyson is impossible. 1 turning with Rafiel requires a very specific team to be 20/20/20, though I suppose it might be possible to achieve at lower levels, not sure. Still, considering I can kill all the spirits on turn 1 and take out 3 or 4 auras depending on whether or not Shinon decides to miss at 3 range, I'm not too worried about Reyson getting stoned.

Let's split the baby and say that Rafiel has a wider range of possible 2-turn teams.

Well, there is white dragons and trading. I suppose whites can be KOed without the wyrms after the sage barrage I usually do, and reds can be KOd after Micaiah gets done with them on enemy phase.

I assumed that Brave Haar had some significantly-close-to-100% chance to KO Whites. If that's not the case, well, OK.

Oh, 77/38 or 75/36. To 6HKO, Haar needs to do 13 damage per shot with a brave. I guess 49 mt is actually reasonable (though it requires level 20/8 with a +mt support and 20/11 without), but 51 mt needs 20/11 and a +mt support. Still, 20/11 should happen by now, and you could give him a +mt support. I guess it works.

Sounds close, I thought Reds were a bit less meaty than that. Oh well.

Oh, and Ike w/ Mia and max str has 72 mt with a wyrmslayer. So Ena allows the ORKO on even the strongest reds. But this is basically a one guy thing.

One guy and two girls, the lucky bastard.

[Florete]

Haar gets the 3-2 boss faster than anyone, 3-3 cargo is important, Ike can't keep up with Ranulf in 3-4, Haar pwns Lombroso in 3-5 faster than anyone (blah blah Energy Drop blah blah Drop will never save you as many turns as a boss kill here), he gets to immediately act and fuck shit up in 3-10 (not an easy button but I am running out of good chapters), 3-11 is Sieze and Ike has Raggy (do I need to go on?).

3-2: Sure, though anyone can draw him in as soon as, like, turn 3 I think if you really want to do that, but then we miss out on that Storm Sword that's always important when discussing Mia and a Recover staff.

3-3: Already mentioned that.

3-4: What does that have to do with anything? Are you suggesting having Haar Rescue Ike or something?

3-5: Haar is not invincible. I won't mention the Wyrmslayer guy because of Nullify, but I will mention the Meteor guy, Lombroso's 41 atk, and the fact that Haar can't ORKO him means all the guys around get a shot at Haar. I don't know how fast you're trying to beat it, but I can't imagine Haar getting it done much faster than I could have without him.

The rest isn't saying much.

Nice for them if it works out in your run, sucks for them if it doesn't, because Raisin has no choices about where he goes or when he exists.

I'm aware of that, thanks. Thank you also for not overblowing the point further.

I see Rafiel giving me four extra dudes on the first critical turn.

I don't. The sides are too close cornered to make an effective diamond and there are too many guys in the middle path to safely use Rafiel (and a Sleep staff). Sacrifice one turn (Enemy phase for all 3 sides should suffice anyway, especially the left and right) for better returns on the rest? Sounds like a plan to me.

Canto's bonus doesn't help me kill dudes, it helps me keep Raisin alive, which I can also do by killing dudes that might attack.

And when there are more enemies than all your guys in that area are reasonable able to kill, what happens? As far as I remember, very few people are able to reliably ORKO the Generals.

Also, flight allows Reyson to jump to our guys on the east or west if they need it more. Rafiel is restricted to whichever one of the 3 areas you send him.

You wanna nitpick? OK. I get a one-turn clear AND the Wishblade AND I kill some random generic red shirt. Advantage: Rafiel.

Where was I nitpicking? You said Rafiel had an advantage for something he allows you to do, but Reyson can do it as well. And since you argue in the very next point that "the best 10+ people on my team can scorch the eyebrows off of anyone" I don't see the value of +1 kill.

I am pretty confident that the best 10+ people on my team can scorch the eyebrows off of anyone who is in attacking range of Rafiel.

In the wide open map that is 4-E-2, I'd prefer assurance. Also, once again depending on how long you take and how spread out the team is, Reyson can jump around much more easily. IIRC, every turn of reinforcements is on another end of the map, be it west, east, or south.

Raisin is spending the first turn of 4-E-5 gnawing on a stone. Rafiel lets me get down to business right now. This chapter, of all chapters, is where speed should count for something.

Yes, it does, but Rafiel can ultimately end up hindering my progress just as much helping it if I can't find myself able to get put him in a spot where he's out of the way, which isn't too likely given the nature of this map. I have no worries of that magnitude with Reyson.

And if Rafiel does happen to die before you're able to finish the map, Reyson gets that one extra turn (or two depending on circumstances) and Rafiel's original advantage disappears.

[Narga_Rocks]

Let's split the baby and say that Rafiel has a wider range of possible 2-turn teams.

Probably. 8 vigors vs. 4. I used all my units except maybe 2 or 3 on the second turn, so with fewer 34 speedsters or no Elincia or something I might not have pulled it off with just Reyson.

I assumed that Brave Haar had some significantly-close-to-100% chance to KO Whites. If that's not the case, well, OK.

That was silly of me. 40 mt should KO the 72hp/22def whites, and 42 mt should KO the 72hp/24 def whites. Considering how a 20/1 Haar can usually achieve that...

Sounds close, I thought Reds were a bit less meaty than that. Oh well.

meh, it just means he needs a +mt support. Actually, Reyson + Haar sounds okay. Haar is always off on his own anyway and often won't get the benefits of a support partner, and Reyson couldn't care less. 3-5, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E, 4-E-1, 4-E-2, they almost hit A for 4-E-3 on chapter bonuses alone. Just start them adjacent on a few maps, little more work in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2, Haar has an ~85% chance of KOing any red with 4 attempts at stun and 38 skill. And of course he's demolishing whites. In fact, with 50 mt vs. 24 def, he's 3HKOing. So he's also got two shots at stun to take no damage. That's considerably better than a lot of units.

Also, cancel or adept further increases that chance, and considering it's the dragon chapter I figure anyone using a brave weapon is probably a good candidate for Cancel in this chapter. We have two.

Oh, and Ike w/ Mia and max str has 72 mt with a wyrmslayer. So Ena allows the ORKO on even the strongest reds. But this is basically a one guy thing.

One guy and two girls, the lucky bastard.

Hey, don't make fun of Ike's harem. Check the top 5 topic. Ike stole Haar's harem. Therefore Ike > Haar. Anyway, considering he just barely pulls it off with a +mt support and Ena and a wyrmslayer and if he is even one str off of his cap he'll have 76 mt and come up short on 77/38, I'd have to say Haar's braveness against reds is pretty good. I think only Boyd stands a reasonable chance of pulling that one off, aside from Haar. How many other axe users have 38 str? Nolan doesn't get that much str in a reasonable amount of levels.

I suppose this is part of why Ike and Haar are top tier.

[Interceptor]

3-2: Sure, though anyone can draw him in as soon as, like, turn 3 I think if you really want to do that, but then we miss out on that Storm Sword that's always important when discussing Mia and a Recover staff.

3-3: Already mentioned that.

3-4: What does that have to do with anything? Are you suggesting having Haar Rescue Ike or something?

3-5: Haar is not invincible. I won't mention the Wyrmslayer guy because of Nullify, but I will mention the Meteor guy, Lombroso's 41 atk, and the fact that Haar can't ORKO him means all the guys around get a shot at Haar. I don't know how fast you're trying to beat it, but I can't imagine Haar getting it done much faster than I could have without him.

3-2: Most choices have a cost associated with them, this is no different.

3-3: You mentioned it, but I'm mentioning it again because only Haar can do it as fast as he does.

3-4: Sure, why not? Ranulf has 9MV and basically ignores cliffs, Haar Airlines can reduce the gap.

3-5: Never mind, I thought that he had a realistic chance of a OHKO Killer strike on the boss (36% listed crit). Does not apply to HM, won't have the STR.

The rest isn't saying much.

Shrug, exactly like your "enemy phase flexibility" isn't saying much about Raisin. By the way, 3-11 is not insignificant, since Ike has to Seize and Haar can get him there really quickly/safely.

I don't. The sides are too close cornered to make an effective diamond and there are too many guys in the middle path to safely use Rafiel (and a Sleep staff). Sacrifice one turn (Enemy phase for all 3 sides should suffice anyway, especially the left and right) for better returns on the rest? Sounds like a plan to me.

Baloney, there's plenty of safe room in the middle. If you're really scared about Sleep and can't figure out how to keep certain people out of range, can't you use Ena or something?

And when there are more enemies than all your guys in that area are reasonable able to kill, what happens? As far as I remember, very few people are able to reliably ORKO the Generals.

It doesn't happen to me, I'm pretty amazing. If it happens to someone else, aka you can't manage to kill the five starting Generals even though you have like 11 fighers and four Vigors, well I guess you should just make sure ot box him in at the end of the round, and have someone shove him out of the way of 2-range. Use Sothe for that, since he's useless here anyway.

Also, flight allows Reyson to jump to our guys on the east or west if they need it more. Rafiel is restricted to whichever one of the 3 areas you send him.

The center is going to be less dangerous because of Rafiel, ergo you can spare more people for the sides.

Where was I nitpicking? You said Rafiel had an advantage for something he allows you to do, but Reyson can do it as well. And since you argue in the very next point that "the best 10+ people on my team can scorch the eyebrows off of anyone" I don't see the value of +1 kill.

Coming up with these tiny corner situations with with dubious worth to push Risin as the best Endgame heron is nitpicking. Which is fine, because I am capable of doing it for Rafiel.

In the wide open map that is 4-E-2, I'd prefer assurance. Also, once again depending on how long you take and how spread out the team is, Reyson can jump around much more easily. IIRC, every turn of reinforcements is on another end of the map, be it west, east, or south.

Well, this is an efficiency tier list I think, not an assurancey tier list, so I'm going to go ahead and say that Rafiel is better, given that you have a ton of people to run interference for him. These enemies are just beorcs. Four Vigors may very well mean four dead enemy units.

Yes, it does, but Rafiel can ultimately end up hindering my progress just as much helping it if I can't find myself able to get put him in a spot where he's out of the way, which isn't too likely given the nature of this map. I have no worries of that magnitude with Reyson.

I can always move Rafiel with a combat-useless unit like sothe, in the event that it's necessary to do so. And that event ought to be unlikely, given how easy it is Vigor without moving so long as two people have Canto.

And if Rafiel does happen to die before you're able to finish the map, Reyson gets that one extra turn (or two depending on circumstances) and Rafiel's original advantage disappears.

Two turns will never happen, one turn means the Rafiel team sucked. Isn't Ashera's physical AOE (which will kill Rafiel) on Turn 3?

This is fun, arguing about stupid things that don't matter, when the real reason that Raisin loses Top of Top is because of his availibility.

[-Cynthia-]

This is fun, arguing about stupid things that don't matter, when the real reason that Raisin loses Top of Top is because of his availibility.

This is really the most important argument, even if we do consider Reyson>Haar and Ike when they all exist, Ike and Haar have nearly double Reyson's availability and they're really good when he isn't around. It's the same reason Mia>Leanne and Zihark>Rafiel and whatnot.

[Narga_Rocks]

And if Rafiel does happen to die before you're able to finish the map, Reyson gets that one extra turn (or two depending on circumstances) and Rafiel's original advantage disappears.

Two turns will never happen, one turn means the Rafiel team sucked. Isn't Ashera's physical AOE (which will kill Rafiel) on Turn 3?

Well, physical AoE is actually turn 1 enemy phase. Magic AoE is turn 3. So if we let Rafiel die, he's basically getting one area vigor, and Reyson is getting one, assuming a two turn clear.

52 mt. (though I was sure it was more like 60 or something, maybe 52 is only NM?)

Level 17 Rafiel has 34 hp and 3.5 def.

So if we stick him on cover he needs to find one that has at least 2 blank spaces between him and Ashera.

Now, considering Reyson isn't getting a vigor on turn 1, if we have a couple of cantoing units Rafiel should get at least 2 units. Also, Soren/Ilyana/Calill could play bombs away on two of the three spirits (spirit at the top is on wardwood) and easily get vigored.

If the AoE is 60mt, well on a cover he needs to reduce the mt by 15 to survive, so 5 blank spaces between them (aka 6 away) I think.

Anyone know what the AoE has on HM?

[Interceptor]

Too bad that Sanaki can't Rescue Rafiel, that'd be an easy fix to the problem. Maybe Kurth's Tide skill for an extra boost?

Worst case scenario, you put Miracle on him and there's a ~33% chance that he makes it for a second four-Vigor round. That alone puts him ahead of Raisin over the long term.

[Narga_Rocks]

Too bad that Sanaki can't Rescue Rafiel, that'd be an easy fix to the problem. Maybe Kurth's Tide skill for an extra boost?

I thought we'd drop Sanaki/Sothe for Gareth/Nasir in this chapter.

But yeah, I neglected Kurth's night tide. Also, any chance of him getting a water/thunder/light support? Maybe like a C or a B? I'm sure plenty of Brave users would enjoy the +18 hit for this chapter, but that requires a sacrifice of their A supports for a few chapters beforehand. Well, a C still gives them +9 hit, so anyone that doesn't have either +mt or +hit would likely be willing to go for a C Rafiel to get an extra +9 on their hit. So thunder x earth, thunder x thunder. Even units with a +mt, depending on how much the +2 mt helps the unit, they might even go for Rafiel if they lack hit. So A water x earth drops mt by 1 but gives 9 hit if you make water x heaven.

Anyway, to recalculate. 34/3 becomes 34/14 on cover with support, 34/18 with kurth + cover, 34/19 with Kurth and support + cover.

48, 52, 53. Oh well, support doesn't do anything unless Rafiel gets blessed. So 5 squares between, 3 squares between, assuming 60 mt and -3 per empty square between.

3 squares is fine, though.

ABA

AAA

___

___

_R_

That gives easy vigors for canto units, and Shinon/wishblade user could stand above Rafiel and still attack.

Actually,

ABA

AAA

___

__R

___

even better. That should work if there is a cover tile nearby and he stands next to Kurth. Not like Kurth is doing anything else, really.

Worst case scenario, you put Miracle on him and there's a ~33% chance that he makes it for a second four-Vigor round. That alone puts him ahead of Raisin over the long term.

That's funny. You are right, over time assuming a two turn clear for either it gives him 1.33 vs. 1 area vigor. Well, more like 33% chance of a two turn clear vs. a three turn clear, assuming a team that needs 2 area vigors in order to 2 turn, and otherwise 3 turns. The vigor on turn 3 is probably pointless. For example, even before I figured out how to use my units to clear in 2 turns, the second turn usually had all the auras dead or just one left by the end, and turn 3 is killing (maybe) the one aura and killing Ashera. I'd have to say that vigor is virtually pointless on turn 3. Just get Ashera down to OHKO for Ike and stand him next to Nasir if he has 31 <= speed < 36, or without Nasir if he has 36 or 37 speed. Ike gets two shots, throw in a blood tide or two and a +hit support, he's probably looking at a 99+% chance of getting the KO with true hit factored in. Missing twice with even 80% listed (92.2% true) is .6084%, aka 1 in ~164. Although having a vigor possibility for turn 3 ups it to 1 in 27016 of failure (4 misses), Ike may have >80% listed hit anyway and the initial chance of failure is already small, no need to credit Reyson for making it microscopic.

Anyway,

.33 x 2 + .67 x 3 = 2.67

vs 3.

So he saves .33 turns over time. And that's assuming that we can't find a way for him to survive the AoE and be useful, and that Reyson's team is incapable of 2 turning with only one area vigor.

Oh, and I should mention my 2 turning w/ Reyson team had Laura and Ilyana, so I'm not sure how limited the team choices are.

Of course, the rest of my team were arguably the best (if restricted to just 1 royal) choices for 4-E-5 possible, so that may have something to do with it.

[dondon151]

Shrug, exactly like your "enemy phase flexibility" isn't saying much about Raisin. By the way, 3-11 is not insignificant, since Ike has to Seize and Haar can get him there really quickly/safely.

IMO Haar is useful on this chapter for way more than carrying Ike over to the seize spot. Aside from blocking the pitfalls, the map has lots of conveniently placed enemies that are in a good position to snipe at player units with relative impunity, and Haar helps clear them out while not being at risk on enemy phase.

[charmander6000]

Why are we arguing 4-E-5 like it will be the deal breaker of which heron gets picked? Think of Caine/Giffica when comparing Rafiel/Reyson for endgame.

Edited September 29, 2009 by charmander6000

[Florete]

3-2: Most choices have a cost associated with them, this is no different.

Okay, so I just restate this part:

Sure, though anyone can draw him in as soon as, like, turn 3

Remember that Ike and Mia can use Wyrmslayer for an easy kill, and Soren (and Ilyana I guess, but lol her) has Thunder.

3-3: You mentioned it, but I'm mentioning it again because only Haar can do it as fast as he does.

The point is that this is something that's already known and considered.

3-4: Sure, why not? Ranulf has 9MV and basically ignores cliffs, Haar Airlines can reduce the gap.

And who's killing the guys along the way? Ranulf has gauge to worry about, Haar isn't invincible (especially since I recall your 3-6 strategy relying on Savior), and no one else except Mordecai (and other sucky Laguz) can even keep up because horses can't cross ledges. And if Haar does have Savior, he doesn't have Nullify, so hello to Mr. Wyrmslayer and Thunder magic. If he doesn't have Savior, well, we know the problem there.

Shrug, exactly like your "enemy phase flexibility" isn't saying much about Raisin. By the way, 3-11 is not insignificant, since Ike has to Seize and Haar can get him there really quickly/safely.

How is it not saying much about Reyson? I'd really prefer not to go into detail about that, since you of all people should know exactly how that works and what I'm going to say.

Baloney, there's plenty of safe room in the middle. If you're really scared about Sleep and can't figure out how to keep certain people out of range, can't you use Ena or something?

It's 5 spaces wide with like 8 enemies that will move toward you, and some of them are back far enough that if you run up and kill there are other dudes that will attack you, and Ena isn't the most durable (2RKOd IIRC), so unless you want her dead immediately you need to keep her safe as well.

It doesn't happen to me, I'm pretty amazing. If it happens to someone else, aka you can't manage to kill the five starting Generals even though you have like 11 fighers and four Vigors, well I guess you should just make sure ot box him in at the end of the round, and have someone shove him out of the way of 2-range. Use Sothe for that, since he's useless here anyway.

What about fighters that are being sent to the east and west? If you send a team of just 3 each (even though that's weird because it means someone is supportless, but meh, Laguz Royals), that cuts your 11 into 5, and then there's the issue of starting positions for both your team and the enemy, and the Sleep staff, and etc.

The center is going to be less dangerous because of Rafiel, ergo you can spare more people for the sides.

How is this an advantage? I can send Reyson everywhere, I can only have Rafiel in one of three places.

Coming up with these tiny corner situations with with dubious worth to push Risin as the best Endgame heron is nitpicking. Which is fine, because I am capable of doing it for Rafiel.

So Reyson's advantages are just nitpicking but Rafiel's advantages (of which there are hardly any at this point) somehow make him the Endgame Heron.

Well, this is an efficiency tier list I think, not an assurancey tier list, so I'm going to go ahead and say that Rafiel is better, given that you have a ton of people to run interference for him. These enemies are just beorcs. Four Vigors may very well mean four dead enemy units.

This is kind of a strange turn of events, because you were previously saying you wanted a one turn Wishblade clear, yet seeing that Reyson is just as good at that, you're going with another idea completely. I can't tell if you're farming enemies or just taking one turn, but I don't really care. If this isn't a negligible advantage (and I can't even see how it can possibly make him better than Reyson in this specific situation), I don't know what would be.

I can always move Rafiel with a combat-useless unit like sothe, in the event that it's necessary to do so. And that event ought to be unlikely, given how easy it is Vigor without moving so long as two people have Canto.

And then what the hell happens if Sothe ends up in the way, or you can't shove from a good position because someone else in the shoving spot? And what if I want to Vigor a space too far away from Rafiel's current position? Sure, you can shove him, but he needs 3 shoves to reach Reyson's move. You could also argue Celerity/Boots, and while I wouldn't argue against him being best for either or even both, Reyson doesn't have any need for them, so he can just let someone else take one or both and then his team is even more flexible.

This is fun, arguing about stupid things that don't matter, when the real reason that Raisin loses Top of Top is because of his availibility.

Hey, you brought it up as a point against Reyson in the first place. If you want to drop it, go ahead.

This is fun, arguing about stupid things that don't matter, when the real reason that Raisin loses Top of Top is because of his availibility.

This is really the most important argument, even if we do consider Reyson>Haar and Ike when they all exist, Ike and Haar have nearly double Reyson's availability and they're really good when he isn't around. It's the same reason Mia>Leanne and Zihark>Rafiel and whatnot.

Counting Endgame as two maps, Ike and Haar both have 15 maps while Reyson has 9 (with endgame as 5, it's 18 vs. 12). That's more like 2/3, not half, and I'd say Reyson is easily twice as good as either one when both are around. And due to Haar not being the greatest of Endgame candidates (Good, not amazing), he might not even have that.

[Narga_Rocks]

So, because it was lost in the Reyson thing, and that's died off again:

Upper Mid

Elincia

Micaiah

Nephenee

Laura

?Jill?

Black Knight

Tibarn

Naesala

?Jill?

Oscar

Mordecai

Ranulf

Aran

Boyd

Red Fox of Fire had some concerns about Neph/Laura/Jill > Tibarn/Naesala. I think Kirsche has made a pretty good case for BK > them, though, and nobody really had much to say against that.

When you consider Laura's healing during part 1 and part 3 and even the routes in part 4 (5 healers, 3 routes) I'd have to say that she's doing more than BK is doing. Especially since we aren't assuming an easy button clear of 3-6. It's an advantage the BK has, but an advantage Laura has is when the easy button is not used there is too much healing and player phase attacking needed for just Micaiah + vulneraries to handle.

Jill is a harder sell. Kirsche didn't go into details, and I'm not sure what to say. Jill plays an important role in the easy button clear of 1-6-2, so that may not cancel the BK's 3-6, but it's good. Of course, it might hurt her long run so maybe I shouldn't count it. She has 1-6-1 and the pegs. The ones weighted down by steel are ORKOd by the forged iron axe she should have. The javelin ones aren't doubled, of course, but she's still helpful for attacking them where they appear rather than waiting for them to come closer. Not sure what to say for 1-7 and 1-E, since 6 move and her stats make her not much different from anyone else. 3-6 she's nice for hit and runs against untransformed (or w/ beastfoe against transformed) and without beastfoe can do some tanking. Also, brave axe. 3-12 she can do some flying around which I found helpful. 3-13 it's mostly self improvement, but she again makes a good beastfoe user thanks to flight and all those ledges. Then in part 4-P/1/2 she's not much good until promotion, and that may only happen in 4-3/4/5. Still, desert. 27 speed doubles some things, but not much. Just a few dragonmasters and bishops. Though ORKOing the purge dude is nice, but any flier can hit and run that guy with help from Leanne and not die afterwards. 28 speed adds only 5 units she's good against, and another 5 dragonmasters. Then in 4-E assuming she is somewhat caught up her stats are nice, but I'm not sure she's much better than anyone else.

Jill could possibly stay below Naesala/Tibarn as well, much as I like her.

Nephenee does more damage to some enemies than speedwing Titania and Haar thanks to 20 and later 21 speed enemies. Considering it's basically Ike > Shinon > Mia > Nephenee > rest on player phase against some of those enemies for a while, I'd have to say that's worth something. Also, 2-1. Even 2-2. Finishing kills boosts efficiency, since

a: laguz with gauge shouldn't waste time attacking things with low hp remaining when they can cause more damage. If Mordecai is choosing between a 10hp enemy and a 40 hp enemy and Neph doesn't exist, there are times Brom and Lucia are already used (possibly attacking other units' leftovers, or starting on their own enemy) so Mordy has to cause 10 damage instead of 20 something. Anyway, Neph's 2-1 and 2-2 shouldn't be underrated, either. And since she's basically doubling in part 3 with no opportunity cost rather than low opportunity cost, that should be considered as well. Also, Halb crit may only be 5, but it's better than nothing and Neph has decent skill, so a critforge is not unreasonable, giving her a better crit rate. Also, if Zihark's adept is with the GMs, I don't think there is a better candidate for the second adept than her in 3-2, 3-3, 3-5. Ranulf v. Neph is debatable for the adept in 3-4 and 3-7, then the hawks show up, but that's still a fair chance at Adept. Then the possibility Mia is on vacation (not deployed).

I'd say Neph does more with her availability. Sure, she doesn't have amazing durability, but we have healers for a reason and 3HKOd by most and 2 or 4 by some doesn't stop her from building lots of positive in this timeframe.

I don't think I should need to go into Micaiah, though. Thani-bombing, wrath fun in part 1, possible resolve fun in 4-P on player phase if she has like 18 speed. 20/10 or 20/11, so probably not. Healers are great in 3-6, and even if they weren't she gives tigers a fairly nice spanking from 2 range. Even a 20/1 Micaiah has 21 mag and with supports and thani has 31 mt. 25 damage to the strongest of tigers is nothing to sneeze at, and leaving them with 27 hp/20 def may not mean that just anybody can KO them, but a raised Leo with a support comes really close. However, since the laguz usually attack something on enemy phase and get countered, chances are Micaiah + Leo KOs what's left of it and the tanking unit can self heal. Anyway, Micaiah is great against enemy units that many units struggle to kill in part 1, great healer in part 3 and part 4 and forced into 4-E for more healing. I don't see how she's not > Tibarn and Naesala.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Actually, a couple questions enter my head when it comes to the Crimean Peasants joining the GM.

1. Adept from Zihark was brought to mind (He'd prefer not to have it for the laguz anyways), but what of Neph's Wrath? I would not be prepared to put it on any Beorc I can tell ya, and I certainly wouldn't want to keep it on her of all people.

2. She has ample opportunity to slip into a Robe, or equip a Dracoshield. If we consider she gets 3 levels prior to part 3, she's Similarly durable with it to Oscar, has more crit, has generally more speed, and possibly a pre-built support with Brom, or whoever the hell. He might have 3 more Str, but she has basically 10 more crit. Not sure what Oscar ORKOs, but I doubt it's much. But basically, Neph is Mia with pre-built offense+defense support, more durability, and spears. Crappier affinity sure, but is basically a better class. Speaking of more durability, I'd be more prepared to slap Mia's Vantage on Neph than vice versa. At least until Ike support starts to really kick in. Either way, I'm sure the only thing Oscar has going for him is a mount, which at times isn't always an advantage, and Earth affinity, of which due to his mobility has a hard time justifying giving it to people who actually need it. He has a bit of an Str lead, but until I see that he ORKOs things she can't, I'm convinced her crit lead is a bigger deal.

3. Who the hell does Nephenee want to support in the long run anyways?

[Interceptor]

Hey, you brought it up as a point against Reyson in the first place. If you want to drop it, go ahead.

I'm bored of it, and I already made all of the points that I wanted to make.

Counting Endgame as two maps, Ike and Haar both have 15 maps while Reyson has 9 (with endgame as 5, it's 18 vs. 12). That's more like 2/3, not half, and I'd say Reyson is easily twice as good as either one when both are around. And due to Haar not being the greatest of Endgame candidates (Good, not amazing), he might not even have that.

I would say that Raisin is not twice as good as either one. I'll provide an anecdote just like you did: 3-5, 3-7, and 3-E are all turn/kill limited, Raisin is not cutting turns for 1/3 for his existence.

Actually, a couple questions enter my head when it comes to the Crimean Peasants joining the GM.

1) Nobody really wants Neph's Wrath. It's almost free if for some reason you do want it.

2) True story, Nephenee has a good argument for Robe or Draco or both. Also, Mia Lite<tm> is an excellent way to describe her

3) Anyone who will take or doesn't mind Wind. Mist is a pretty good choice.

[charmander6000]

What do you consider to be twice as good? Getting twice as many kills? Cutting twice as many turns needed to beat the game?

[Zkirsche]

Shinon won't mind wrath to help with his enemy phase if he can't get Z's adept.

[Interceptor]

What do you consider to be twice as good? Getting twice as many kills? Cutting twice as many turns needed to beat the game?

Efficiency is pretty loosely defined in this list, so that's a tall order. Ease and quantity of kills, healing utility, turn-cuts, etc, seem to me like valid ways to measure game completion. Can't put a number on it. Seems to me, though, that there is an upper limit as to how much one individual unit can really move the needle in a single chapter, so I'm skeptical about Raisin's ability to do it.

I mean, if Ike didn't exist (ignoring Sieze and 4-E-2 for a moment), I think that would be more detrimental to the game's efficient completion than if I lost my heron for Raisin's chapters. I don't like "X unit doesn't exist" hypotheticals because it doesn't actually happen, but that's the only way I can think of to make my point, here.

[Narga_Rocks]

Actually, a couple questions enter my head when it comes to the Crimean Peasants joining the GM.

1. Adept from Zihark was brought to mind (He'd prefer not to have it for the laguz anyways), but what of Neph's Wrath? I would not be prepared to put it on any Beorc I can tell ya, and I certainly wouldn't want to keep it on her of all people.

2. She has ample opportunity to slip into a Robe, or equip a Dracoshield. If we consider she gets 3 levels prior to part 3, she's Similarly durable with it to Oscar, has more crit, has generally more speed, and possibly a pre-built support with Brom, or whoever the hell. He might have 3 more Str, but she has basically 10 more crit. Not sure what Oscar ORKOs, but I doubt it's much. But basically, Neph is Mia with pre-built offense+defense support, more durability, and spears. Crappier affinity sure, but is basically a better class. Speaking of more durability, I'd be more prepared to slap Mia's Vantage on Neph than vice versa. At least until Ike support starts to really kick in. Either way, I'm sure the only thing Oscar has going for him is a mount, which at times isn't always an advantage, and Earth affinity, of which due to his mobility has a hard time justifying giving it to people who actually need it. He has a bit of an Str lead, but until I see that he ORKOs things she can't, I'm convinced her crit lead is a bigger deal.

3. Who the hell does Nephenee want to support in the long run anyways?

Um, for durability I'd have to go with Mia, to be honest.

I'd assume Nephenee gets 2 levels in 2-1 and 2-2 combined and 2 levels of bexp for 2-E (I want her doubling, stat, and nobody else does much with that bexp anyway) and a level in 2-E. That's level 6, though 2 of which were bexp and more likely to give 3 of hp/skl/spd/res than anything else. Of course, one of str/lck/def isn't out of the question.

Mia starts 3-2 at level 9, easy.

~35hp, 14def

~34hp, 17def, though with the bexp 34/16 is more likely.

Now, while that might seem like a win for Nephenee, consider Mia's 70% hp growth and 40% def growth vs. 45% and 35%.

Also, assuming that bexp, I'd say 24 speed for Neph at level 6. Assuming she got that luck, looks like 48 + 14 + 15 = 77 avo. Another 3 form a support with Brom, maybe 5.

base Mia: 28 x 2 + 18 + 15 = 89. 97 with C Ike. (or 15def/92avo with Shinon, 15def/89 avo with a water/light support, 14def/92 avo with dark/wind)

Durability is similar, but Mia will soon grow a hp lead and a 3 level difference isn't enough to offset that. The 3 level difference probably offsets the difference in def growths.

Anyway, Mist means 2, 2, 8, 8, which isn't bad. Mist isn't getting much better, aside from 2, 3, 0, 8 with Shinon. Not sure who else would go for Neph, but a support that goes to endgame is better than one that doesn't (No dropping to C in 4-P/1/2 or 4-E-1). So she can compete decently even with wind since not everyone is going to be going to endgame.

And I didn't bring up Oscar because I thought there was no point. No way are his contributions in part 3 > Royals.

Actually, a couple questions enter my head when it comes to the Crimean Peasants joining the GM.

1) Nobody really wants Neph's Wrath. It's almost free if for some reason you do want it.

2) True story, Nephenee has a good argument for Robe or Draco or both. Also, Mia Lite<tm> is an excellent way to describe her

3) Anyone who will take or doesn't mind Wind. Mist is a pretty good choice.

Yeah, whoever you want to have wrath can probably take it. Of course, economic profit is probably zero regardless, but that's like the 2 snickers example and not helpful. (I offer you a snickers for free and you value it at $1, your economic profit is $1. I offer you one of two snickers, you value both at $1, your economic profit is 0 whichever one you pick since the best alternative foregone is $1 just like the choice you make, and 1 - 1 = 0) So if two units have even gain from it and the gain is so low nobody wants it anyway (only Ulki has real benefit, but he's not always around and as PB says it can be annoying to get down to wrath range, it's more an optimization thing there) you might as well look at how someone performs with it. The only thing I can think of is that if everyone benefits equally from going around with full hp and in the event the last enemy that can attack you gets you down to wrath hp you can have a chance for boosted offence. I'm not sure how valuable that is. I guess Mordy has a case if you don't give him resolve, and even if you do, 5 + 15 + 15 = 35 so he could take both. It only helps on stuff he doesn't ORKO, and once he hits S strike that won't be very much.

I'm not sure on the 3-1 robe. The DB probably gets higher gains out of the others, unless of course you are playing a part 3 DB easybutton runthrough. So a lot of your units are super durable with bad offence, some have good for both, others have good offence and low durability but have other options. I guess she has a good case for either or both, but I don't think she's Gatrie's crown level of possession. I'm not sure she's quite Titania/Haar and speedwing level. Probably close, if you are using her. Preventing more 2HKOs is a good thing, and her hp/def cap don't get in the way (much) thanks to her growths. Unlike a unit like Mia that has no case for a robe whatsoever, and not much of one for the draco, either (assuming Ike support wrt the draco, anyway).

Still, I'm not arguing Neph > Micaiah, nor is anyone (currently) arguing Laura > Nephenee. Even without the robe/shield, I think she does quite nicely in the pre-Tibarn era and thus can go above them.

doh, Shinon. Oh well, I wasn't looking at Neph's performance with wrath anyway. Um, Shinon has similar issues to Ulki for getting to wrath range, then it's no enemy phase vs. little player phase. Also it's not an issue between 3-2 and 3-7. So I guess he can have it if nothing else.

I don't think Shinon needs it much outside of 3-2 and 3-3, though, so he can probably have it there only. Once the silencer appears, he'd only benefit on generals, and I'm not sure one enemy type is worth getting a unit down to wrath range.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Well I did think up a way to put Neph's Wrath to good use, problem is how it's done. Do tell me if perhaps I'm off my rocker, as I'm not 100% solid on this, but do tell me what ya think.

Basically it involves Oscar. Both get negligeable hit for it (never hurt anyone I guess), but the important part is the avoid, due to wind being an avoid booster. A C is 12 avoid off the bat. Level 7, that's 72. A B, that's 24. Level 10, that's 89-90 avoid. AKA, close to Mia with Ike's numbers. It's considered Oscar gets crowned at some point anyways, Crowned as soon as he hits the speed cap is 72+24 avoid, 96. 23 Str I'm gonna guess isn't good, but 26 speed at that time is perfectly fine. In fact, it's good for a good while. You might be wondering if I'm suggesting Adept for Oscar, since we are likely to have 2. Nuh-uh, Neph will be putting it to better use. However...

With this sort of avoid on supports, one can move out of range and take hits to lower their HP. They then huddle up, one with Adept and the other with Wrath. So my question is, who uses Wrath better? I'd say Neph I guess, due to class crit bonus.

Here's my question really. How much is it worth to keep Oscar held back? Going with Titania he still has meh offense, and even a support with her is rather meh in avoid (sort of like Soren with Ike). It doesn't help his offense to support her, not by any means. That, and she isn't dependent on him for supports (aside from flyaway missions, why would you have Haar stray far away? He gives more acc, both would love it for their axes, he'd LOVE to be tankeier. There's Ranulf as well). However, with Neph he and she get almost Mia with Ike numbers avoid, and are among your second best adept users on the team, along with the fact that they can now put Wrath to good use if used correctly. I'd say Oscar held back to basically help himself and another become killfaces is better than him being a dingleberry at Titania's side.

@Narga-No way would I say Neph can beat Mia's eventual durability, but she does have ways to win out early in the least. Just wanted to clear that up.

Edited September 30, 2009 by France