OMG it's a tier list

[incognit0]

Speedwings do not turn Titania into Ike. Ike is considerably more durable than Titania is, and once we expand the view of the game beyond the GMs first few chapters, you'll notice that one of these kids becomes a superstar while the other one becomes a roleplayer.

That's not the germane question here, since we clearly still care about what Ike does even when he's not strictly the #1 unit on the map. He deserves credit for all of his contributions. Ike's consistently excellent performance coupled with a near-complete lack of want for scarce resources makes him a Top tier candidate in my opinion.

Although you have to question the magnitude of Ike's contributions. Aside from those maps, he doesn't do much. In comparison to Titania, specifically in reference to the upper quote:

3-1

Ike is better. Titania still has 9 move, crucial to swinging around the east, and her 2-range over Ike..

3-2

Only mounted units doing much of anything, maybe giving Mia the boss kill.

3-3

7 move leaves Ike in the dust as he can't get to the forward tents/boxes.

3-4

Ike spends most of his time in Haar's saddlebags, still better than Titania not climbing ledges.

3-5

Titania contributes to the 2-turn, assuming the Energy Drop is desired.

3-7

Ike tags the BK, Titania chills on the second island doing nothing.

3-8

Both have seven move, ability to kill generals (hammer, brave sword). Titania however has canto and better 2-range.

3-10

Ike goes south, Titania goes north. Both own enemies, although Titania's move is more valuable, since less people go north.

3-11

Titania gets self-improvement, Ike is carried to the Seize.

3-E

Both contribute, Titania with move, Ike can own stuff once he is dropped off in a group of enemies.

Most of the time, both have good enough offense, but only Titania can get to the frontlines to take advantage of it. Other times Ike is hurt by spending time being carted to the seize. Titania's durability is fine anyways, she will need an occasional Physic, or perhaps a robe which is not particularly fought over.

Edited May 9, 2011 by incognito123

[Interceptor]

Oh, I'm sorry. I'll move Sothe up right away.

Well, it's been a long time coming, but I guess I've finally found a situation where something was so funny that I forgot to laugh.

It's awesome that I covered this, in a post you quoted a line from, no less.

You "covered it" to the extent that you highlighted the most favorable scenario, i.e. when Sothe can use his superior eagle vision to abuse laguz movement in the swamp and buy himself some safety, perhaps while cackling maniacally in the process.

This sweeps the other associated scenarios under the rug, such as when Sothe can't sag back without compromising the integrity of the front line, so he either needs to equip a crappy weapon or have a Trade Bitch<tm> neuter him suitably for Enemy Phase.

Again, I don't see what the significance of this is. Drop your weasel-wording, and please call out someone who actually says that Sothe is worthless in 3-6, instead of vague "people". I'll be happy to confront this person, and inform him or her that Sothe is not without purpose, he is a mediocre fourth-string combatant that plugs small gaps hither and thither until the adults show up.

[Florete]

Well, it's been a long time coming, but I guess I've finally found a situation where something was so funny that I forgot to laugh.

You're welcome!

You "covered it" to the extent that you highlighted the most favorable scenario, i.e. when Sothe can use his superior eagle vision to abuse laguz movement in the swamp and buy himself some safety, perhaps while cackling maniacally in the process.

This sweeps the other associated scenarios under the rug, such as when Sothe can't sag back without compromising the integrity of the front line, so he either needs to equip a crappy weapon or have a Trade Bitch<tm> neuter him suitably for Enemy Phase.

Here's an idea, Interceptor: actually play 3-6 using Sothe seriously. And in a run where you used him to his full extent in part 1 so he's more like level 5-7 and not 1. I know this will probably be hard since you must gag at the sight of Sothe, but I want you to be brave, stuff a sock in your mouth if you need to, and try. You may find that using him and simultaneously keeping him alive is not quite as hard as you'd like it to be.

Again, I don't see what the significance of this is. Drop your weasel-wording, and please call out someone who actually says that Sothe is worthless in 3-6, instead of vague "people". I'll be happy to confront this person, and inform him or her that Sothe is not without purpose, he is a mediocre fourth-string combatant that plugs small gaps hither and thither until the adults show up.

When did I accuse anyone of saying Sothe is "worthless" in the first place? My exact line, which you quoted verbatim, was: "I don't know why people think 3-6 is such an issue for Sothe." You're just proven in this paragraph ("mediocre fourth-string combatant") that you are among those people.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[dondon151]

I don't have to imagine it, because "Titania with growths" is what happens in the overwhelming majority of runs, where the player doesn't roundhouse kick away one of the core pillars of Fire Emblem.

If that really is what happens, then you must be sandbagging her in some other sort of way.

This no-frills Titania is quite good, no lie. But at her base parameters, she isn't without flaw: Titania can't fly (ever), her offensive feature set is useful but limited, and her durability is nothing to write home about, if not shaky. Left to her own devices, she's undoubtedly useful in spurts, but she peters out, and is a long way from being the dominating force that I'd expect from a unit in Top tier.

Fancy words that you use there. Ike can't ever fly and his offensive ability is useful but limited (especially when he only has Wind Edge to fall back on for 2 range before 3-11). Titania's durability is more than sufficient for any circumstance barring a stray Horseslayer. On his own, Ike is not particularly useful until part 4, and his overall performance is not as dominating as what I'd expect from a top tier unit.

I don't quite understand what you think you can accomplish by insisting that Ike should be in a tier above Titania while ignoring points that are damaging to your argument. The substance of your arguments consist mostly of repeating that this tier list is not a max efficiency tier list; regardless if it were or not, the fact that Titania has the capability of putting the player one step ahead while Ike doesn't should clearly secure her position in top tier.

It's fun to tweak you about this. All that I had to do to elicit an overreaction was say "RNG abuse" in a list of other perfectly legitimate points, and you predictably blew those two words out of proportion and ignored everything else. Everything there contributes to your skewed view of the tier list, but that particular point is a "barbarians at the gate" moment for you.

Your other "perfectly legitimate points" hinged on the truthfulness on that statement; I felt no need to address the rest if I could knock down its basis.

If I adamantly insisted that your mother was a whore, I'm sure you'd try to correct me as well. Fortunately, I am a nice enough person to not propagate such slander.

Edited May 9, 2011 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

Here's an idea, Interceptor: actually play 3-6 using Sothe seriously. And in a run where you used him to his full extent in part 1 so he's more like level 5-7 and not 1. I know this will probably be hard since you must gag at the sight of Sothe, but I want you to be brave, stuff a sock in your mouth if you need to, and try. You may find that using him and simultaneously keeping him alive is not quite as hard as you'd like it to be.

This is ridiculous. It's a matter of public record that I've used Sothe seriously, look no further than the playlog that I posted here. He went into 3-6 at level 5.15 with RNG-blessed stats, and came out level 6.34 on the other end. He didn't get that high by magic. My opinion of Sothe has been informed by years of using him, but most heavily by that run in particular.

When did I accuse anyone of saying Sothe is "worthless" in the first place? My exact line, which you quoted verbatim, was: "I don't know why people think 3-6 is such an issue for Sothe." You're just proven in this paragraph ("mediocre fourth-string combatant") that you are among those people.

You didn't accuse anyone of anything, you said "such an issue" at vague "people", which leaves us to infer what you mean specifically.

Sothe is a mediocre combatant in 3-6. Just look at who you have available:

- God Mode: Beyonce Knowles

- Pwnsauce Potential : Volug, Nolan

- Just Give Me a Few Turns to Get Going: Jill

- Please Don't Hurt Me: Zihark, Sothe, Eddie, Aran

- Free Wrath Harassment: Lughnasadarndo, Micaiah

- Trade Bitches and Gauge Reduction: Meg, Fiona

I don't think I'm being unfair to Sothe, here. There aren't many conceivable scenarios where you'd have him using Beastfoe, his SPD is highly unlikely to be sufficient against cats regardless of how you use him in Part 1, Beastkiller has caveats attached to it, etc.

[Florete]

This is ridiculous. It's a matter of public record that I've used Sothe seriously, look no further than the playlog that I posted here. He went into 3-6 at level 5.15 with RNG-blessed stats, and came out level 6.34 on the other end. He didn't get that high by magic. My opinion of Sothe has been informed by years of using him, but most heavily by that run in particular.

Then why does he seem to do so much worse for you than myself and some others despite such blessings?

You didn't accuse anyone of anything, you said "such an issue" at vague "people", which leaves us to infer what you mean specifically.

Precisely.

- God Mode: Beyonce Knowles

Now if only she was there before I was practically done with the map.

- Pwnsauce Potential : Volug, Nolan

I believe Volug belongs in the next one down. Even Nolan really isn't significantly better on the durability end, especially if he's a bit screwed in Def (not unlikely given his growth), and his offense is mostly reliant on Beastfoe, and guess who's getting that for us without wasting 4 extra turns in 1-4?

- Just Give Me a Few Turns to Get Going: Jill

I love this girl to death, but flight aside (which is, of course, a significant advantage) her raw stats really aren't much better than Sothe's.

At best, all these units you've listed merely have both their pros and cons when compared to Sothe. None are overall superior.

I don't think I'm being unfair to Sothe, here. There aren't many conceivable scenarios where you'd have him using Beastfoe, his SPD is highly unlikely to be sufficient against cats regardless of how you use him in Part 1, Beastkiller has caveats attached to it, etc.

There are scenarios you'd give Sothe Beastfoe? And isn't it awesome that Sothe with 21 Str, intact Micaiah support, and Beastkiller can OHKO all the Cats anyway? That's including the stronger level 17 ones. Calculation errors really suck.

You've always been unfair to Sothe, so I just assume you're doing it whenever you mention him at this point.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Interceptor]

Fancy words that you use there. Ike can't ever fly and his offensive ability is useful but limited (especially when he only has Wind Edge to fall back on for 2 range before 3-11). Titania's durability is more than sufficient for any circumstance barring a stray Horseslayer. On his own, Ike is not particularly useful until part 4, and his overall performance is not as dominating as what I'd expect from a top tier unit.

Today is False Equivalence Day in the Pope's cafeteria, what with you mirroring and mutating my own arguments into worse ones, using the same style. As well as tying vulgar maternal insults to observations about an Radiant Dawn playthrough, as if the two things were on the same level.

Ike's offensive ability is limited in the sense that "doubling a lot of things for huge damage" isn't comprehensively awesome, and that a Storm Sword for off occasions isn't as useful as Forged Hand Axe for all seasons (all seasons past 3-7, anyway). Titania's durability is sufficient for circumstances in which she won't die, which are less likely than ones where Ike won't.

There is no accounting for taste.

I don't quite understand what you think you can accomplish by insisting that Ike should be in a tier above Titania [...]

Stasis. Do you think about these things before you post them, or do you just like peppering throwaway phrasing into your replies? Spoiler: rhetorical question.

[...] while ignoring points that are damaging to your argument. The substance of your arguments consist mostly of repeating that this tier list is not a max efficiency tier list; regardless if it were or not, the fact that Titania has the capability of putting the player one step ahead while Ike doesn't should clearly secure her position in top tier.

You say that they are damaging, I say that they are irrelevant. You say that your hacked playthrough is a great predictor of what a unit can do with its basic parameters, I say that your bizarro-world run so greatly distorts sane resource distribution and unit use that it poisons any conclusions that you can draw from it.

I will make snarky comments, you will make stuffy retorts, and we'll tacitly agree to disagree.

Your other "perfectly legitimate points" hinged on the truthfulness on that statement; I felt no need to address the rest if I could knock down its basis.

No, RNG abuse is nothing more than an interesting footnote. It's funny, because you take it so personally that someone would dare suggest that you throw the natural order of things under the bus in order to minimize a chapter's turn count, of course, but the other points have nothing to do with it.

Then why does he seem to do so much worse for you than myself and some others despite such blessings?

"Some others"... today you are a weasel-wording machine. I'd suggest to you, that he seems worse for me, because my opinion of him isn't inflated.

I believe Volug belongs in the next one down. Even Nolan really isn't significantly better on the durability end, especially if he's a bit screwed in Def (not unlikely given his growth), and his offense is mostly reliant on Beastfoe [...]

I love this girl to death, but flight aside (which is, of course, a significant advantage) her raw stats really aren't much better than Sothe's.

Do you realize that moving Volug and Nolan down, and pointing out that Jill isn't better than Sothe except that she is, still makes Sothe a fourth-string combatant in 3-6? This doesn't even get into how I sandbagged Leonardo and Micaiah on this list, or how crowded Sothe's own tier is with Zihark, Eddie, and Aran.

guess who's getting that for us without wasting 4 extra turns in 1-4?

Do you really want to make an issue of this? Around these parts, we call it "clutching at straws".

There are scenarios you'd give Sothe Beastfoe? And isn't it awesome that Sothe with 21 Str, intact Micaiah support, and Beastkiller can OHKO all the Cats anyway? That's including the stronger level 17 ones.

No, there aren't scenarios where I'd give Sothe Beastfoe, but in the past I've had people (like smash) get on my ass about it, so I thought to preempt it by pointing out that he's never really in the running.

It'd be awesome if it were true. Sothe with 21 STR, +2 A support, and Beastkiller only has 50 effective mt, which isn't enough to OHKO any cats that I am aware of. (ps: he doesn't have 100 HIT on them either).

EDIT:

Calculation errors really suck.

I'm not going to begrudge someone for a calculation error, since everyone makes them. And I can understand forgetting that Sothe can't ever OHKO cats in 3-6 with Beastkiller.

But how on earth do you do this in the same post where you imply that *I* am the one misremembering his performance in this chapter?

Edited May 9, 2011 by Interceptor

[Florete]

I'd suggest to you, that he seems worse for me, because my opinion of him isn't inflated.

Of course not. It's deflated.

Do you realize that moving Volug and Nolan down, and pointing out that Jill isn't better than Sothe except that she is, still makes Sothe a fourth-string combatant in 3-6? This doesn't even get into how I sandbagged Leonardo and Micaiah on this list, or how crowded Sothe's own tier is with Zihark, Eddie, and Aran.

Except

"At best, all these units you've listed merely have both their pros and cons when compared to Sothe. None are overall superior."

there are issues. For example, Volug is practically useless for the first two turns, can't attack without being countered, and occasionally misses a player phase for grass. Nolan and Jill are both shaky in the durability growths department, and unless you only use one of them (which would effectively put Sothe at third string by your standards), they are likely to not even reach any better than ~17-18/1.

As for the rest, Zihark and Edward are pretty much flat out worse no matter how you slice it, and Aran is prone to getting doubled. I ignored everything else for a reason. It's not sandbagging when Micaiah and Leonardo can only handle one enemy per turn.

Do you really want to make an issue of this? Around these parts, we call it "clutching at straws".

Yeah, I do. Fact is, without Sothe, getting Beastfoe really is clutching at straws. You might get lucky, but it's still mostly a shot in the dark when your best chance is a best bio Edward or Nolan for a low 30's% as opposed to Sothe who has almost double that at base in worst bio and guaranteed at best bio. In any other situation, we wouldn't even consider the 30% chance strategy when the 100% strategy works just as, if not more, easily.

Much better. At least this one didn't create any major damage.

I'm not going to begrudge someone for a calculation error, since everyone makes them. And I can understand forgetting that Sothe can't ever OHKO cats in 3-6 with Beastkiller.

But how on earth do you do this in the same post where you imply that *I* am the one misremembering his performance in this chapter?

Because that was durability and this is offense. But I thank you for your understanding. Unfortunately, despite having aced my college Data Analysis class with flying colors I am still not immune to simple mathematical mishaps when moving fast.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[dondon151]

Today is False Equivalence Day in the Pope's cafeteria, what with you mirroring and mutating my own arguments into worse ones, using the same style.

It is only because the original argument is just as bad.

Ike's offensive ability is limited in the sense that "doubling a lot of things for huge damage" isn't comprehensively awesome, and that a Storm Sword for off occasions isn't as useful as Forged Hand Axe for all seasons (all seasons past 3-7, anyway). Titania's durability is sufficient for circumstances in which she won't die, which are less likely than ones where Ike won't.

Recap:

- Ike doubles lots of things for huge damage. Titania also doubles lots of things for huge damage after 3-2.

- Wind Edge does not match up to Short Axe prior to 3-7 and Storm Sword does not match up to forged Hand Axes after 3-7.

- Storm Sword is also competed for while forged Hand Axes are in unlimited supply.

- Titania's durability is sufficient for most circumstance.

- Titania has +2 move and canto.

How is Ike a tier up on Titania? Oh wait, let me recycle your argument - it's because it's slightly harder for an idiot to romp through the game using Titania than when using Ike. God forbid the usage of our frontal lobes in this tier list.

No, RNG abuse is nothing more than an interesting footnote. It's funny, because you take it so personally that someone would dare suggest that you throw the natural order of things under the bus in order to minimize a chapter's turn count, of course, but the other points have nothing to do with it.

Oh, please. I've already addressed your other points countless times; there's no need to do it again for an old dog that can't learn new tricks.

Edited May 9, 2011 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

Except

"At best, all these units you've listed merely have both their pros and cons when compared to Sothe. None are overall superior."

there are issues.

Unless you're going to go ahead and deny that Sothe is your fourth option for combat (or worse) in 3-6, there's really no cause for you to be getting on my ass about Sothe here, since that's exactly what I said about him in the first place. I'm not going to get into a fight about the details beyond that, without pausing here first.

Yeah, I do.

Great. Do you want me to put you down for Marcia to Top tier, or do you think that recruiting Haar is only worth High?

Recap:

- Ike doubles lots of things for huge damage. Titania also doubles lots of things for huge damage after 3-2.

- Wind Edge does not match up to Short Axe prior to 3-7 and Storm Sword does not match up to forged Hand Axes after 3-7.

- Storm Sword is also competed for while forged Hand Axes are in unlimited supply.

- Titania's durability is sufficient for most circumstance.

- Titania has +2 move and canto.

This is some recap.

Titania doubles lots of things for huge damage, and this is comparable to Ike doing the same... which is amazing, given Ike's innate +2 SPD advantage (which causes Titania to whiff all sorts of doubles), and faster leveling speed. Storm Sword is competed for, but there's no mention of competition for the Short Axe. Forged Hand Axes are infinite, and so is Ragnell never mind. We'll ignore situations where a combination of point #1 and #2 are awkward. God forbid anyone mention lategame, which is part of the reason we'd be interested in giving Titania boosters in the first place. Etc.

Possibly this was the greatest Ike vs. Titania tear-down known to man.

How is Ike a tier up on Titania? Oh wait, let me recycle your argument - it's because it's slightly harder for an idiot to romp through the game using Titania than when using Ike. God forbid the usage of our frontal lobes in this tier list.

This was so persuasive that I very nearly joined your side, before I noticed the cherry-picking and the criterion for efficiency that was imported from your tier list.

Oh, please. I've already addressed your other points countless times; there's no need to do it again for an old dog that can't learn new tricks.

Excellent. I haven't had the "I already countered this" response since the last time that I argued with smash.

[RNG Princess]

I agree with RFOF about Volug vs Sothe on 3-6, Sothe performs better if he has resolve and Micaiah around he'll dodge more too, not only that but he can be shoved by Meg or any other scrub (except Fiona/Laura/Micaiah) but Jill > Sothe because that experience given to her isn't limited by 22 str cap and no promotion, she also flies and gains good experience with beastfoe especially if she targets tigers. Nolan is much better than Sothe for the same reasons as Jill and he has Tarvos, and I can see why Interceptor says Sothe is the 4th string fighter because Volug can use some combat to raise strike. BK is a waste, he should just be used just in case, at least Sothe can gain speed to double later on.

Also I think what Interceptor is saying about Titania vs Ike is that she costs a lot more than Ike (BEXP, Speedwing) and he doesn't. He also has a few more advantages over her, and certain maps over her, as well as better experience gain. True that he is not mounted but don't forget to measure the costs either ^^'.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

I agree with RFOF about Volug vs Sothe on 3-6, Sothe performs better if he has resolve and Micaiah around he'll dodge more too, not only that but he can be shoved by Meg or any other scrub (except Fiona/Laura/Micaiah) but Jill > Sothe because that experience given to her isn't limited by 22 str cap and no promotion, she also flies and gains good experience with beastfoe especially if she targets tigers. Nolan is much better than Sothe for the same reasons as Jill and he has Tarvos, and I can see why Interceptor says Sothe is the 4th string fighter because Volug can use some combat to raise strike.

The problem is that Jill is just kind of pants in 3-6. Even devotedly feeding her EXP, she gets 2HKOed by Tigers for a long time. She never really has the strength to 2HKO Tigers herself, and she never doubles Cats, and like Sothe, she has accuracy issues, without even being able to take Resolve or something. I mean, I'm happy to train her so she can rock faces later in Part 3 and Part 4, but 3-6 is more self-improvement for her.

Also I think what Interceptor is saying about Titania vs Ike is that she costs a lot more than Ike (BEXP, Speedwing) and he doesn't. He also has a few more advantages over her, and certain maps over her, as well as better experience gain. True that he is not mounted but don't forget to measure the costs either ^^'.

Please, have you seen what Interceptor does with his Ikes? He is probably taking more BEXP, not less.

It comes down to Titania being better for basically every Part 3 chapter, and Ike being better in 3-P, 3-1, and Part 4. And Titania takes a Speedwing. I wouldn't say Titania is better than Ike, but does she deserve to be a tier below him? No.

Unless you're going to go ahead and deny that Sothe is your fourth option for combat (or worse) in 3-6, there's really no cause for you to be getting on my ass about Sothe here, since that's exactly what I said about him in the first place. I'm not going to get into a fight about the details beyond that, without pausing here first.

Actually, Sothe is never really your fourth option. Volug and Nolan kick ass since they can take Beastfoe and kill stuff very easily, but there is only 1 Beastfoe, and Nolan in particular isn't an offensive dynamo without it. So it's more like either Nolan is better than Sothe, or Volug is. I know that's not exactly correct since Volug has other advantages such as durability or whatever, but at the same time, once you consider the lack of multiple Beastfoes to hand out, the gap isn't quite so large.

As for Sothe finding Beastfoe in 1-4, I'd like to point out that Sothe's chance of finding it with 21 skill is 81% in one turn. Just for reliability, you'd probably want him to wait twice for a chance of about 96% to find it. In order to have a similar chance, Nolan would need to wait there for 24 turns! Obviously, biorhythm will also have an effect, such that Nolan's chance to find it is probably higher than that, but it's still a staggering difference.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Black★Star

[RNG Princess]

You can't expect either Jill/Sothe to ROFLSTOMP enemies both need to be used with caution, and Jill has flight which is easy for her to go back to a safe spot.

I'd say she's better because she has brave axe and I can't see why she cant be forged a max hit Steel Axe back at 1-E it fixes her hit ^^' I did it in my PT and she did perfectly fine of course I had Jill(T) too so its probably different for Jill. Oh thats with beastfoe though.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Junkhead]

Volug can also use Resolve for better durability. In fact, he can use Resolve AND Beastfoe to be overkill and insanely durable. Don't forget he can have a B Nolan by then. And he's not limited to 20 Beastkiller uses.

[Anouleth]

Volug can also use Resolve for better durability. In fact, he can use Resolve AND Beastfoe to be overkill and insanely durable. Don't forget he can have a B Nolan by then. And he's not limited to 20 Beastkiller uses.

And like I said, Volug is still better than Sothe. However, it's highly questionable if Nolan without Beastfoe is better than Sothe, and certainly, the gap between Sothe and Volug is mitigated somewhat by the opportunity cost of Beastfoe.

[dondon151]

Also I think what Interceptor is saying about Titania vs Ike is that she costs a lot more than Ike (BEXP, Speedwing) and he doesn't. He also has a few more advantages over her, and certain maps over her, as well as better experience gain. True that he is not mounted but don't forget to measure the costs either ^^'.

Those are the only 2 resources that Titania takes that are significant to any extent, and her taking a substantial amount of BEXP is a dubious claim (see what Anouleth said). Certainly, I plowed a lot of BEXP into her because I had neither growths nor a Speedwing for her to fall back on, but I don't automatically assume that all Titanias promote at the same time that mine did (which was 3-5), because that was an extraordinarily exceptional case. Most of them should promote in 3-8, which is just perfect, as the bonuses allow her to reliably OHKO enemy generals again.

I find it incredibly odd that the same train of logic that got Mia into high tier (plow her with highly contested resources because she uses them well) is not getting Titania into top tier. Of course, Interceptor has a convenient reason for that; that is, he has some arbitrary criterion that prevents units who require resources from entering top tier, yet he makes an exception for Haar. And then, when confronted with the fact that an unwinged Titania still dominates the game, which is his reason for why Haar is top tier, he chooses to attack my playthrough instead of actually contesting that point. Furthermore, the arguments of Ike not being a great unit have only been addressed with comments along the lines of "go make your own maximum efficiency tier list." If anything, the simple fact that Titania can help us exceed our expectations of efficiency on this tier list should put her into top tier.

Your summary is definitely accurate; I am not ignoring the costs so much as I am asserting that the costs are relatively inconsequential in the face of the benefits.

Edited May 10, 2011 by dondon151

[Florete]

Personally, I do side more with Titania in Top than High. I brought it up, after all. Before that is to happen, though, some other things need to be decided.

First is Sothe. Is he going to remain above her and move up at the same pace, or stay where he is? Cross team comparisons suck, but even if Titania is deemed better than him (which I don't really agree with but is not bad enough to contest), I really can't see her a tier higher.

Next is both Titanias vs Ike. It seems like most people are willing to agree that Ike > Titania, but what about Titania (T)? Suddenly she has the same base Spd, meaning Ike's offensive advantage has been wiped clean, and all he has is durability, which isn't too significant, all things considered (Hand Axes, Canto, third tier Sol, etc.). I'm pretty sure I'd side with her over Ike.

Lastly, Haar. I am neither here nor there on him moving up, but I want to know how many people aside from dondon think he should go, specifically if Titania and/or Sothe go to Top. I'd also like to know about him vs Ike(T), who really is an offensive monster but still has the other problems like no wings.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Yuglyoshi]

I'd put Haar at the very top of the list, even above Ike(T). He's just so incredibly game-breaking with his flying, which Ike can never get. I'd also vouch for Titania(T) over Ike for the reasons rfof pointed out.

As for Sothe vs. Titania vs Ike, it's too trivial and difficult to compare for me to bother with, tbh. Even after reading all the Int, Dondon and rfof arguments, I can't make any sort of clear decision.

Just my two cents.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Yuglyoshi

[nflchamp]

It's awesome that I covered this, in a post you quoted a line from, no less.

If this is the ridiculous claim that Sothe's durability is fine with Resolve, I question why anyone actually believe it holds water.

Sothe's best situation (24 SPD, 20 LCK, A Micaiah, thicket) gives him 94 avoid w/o Resolve active. Against the crappy hit rates (136) he has an 2.38% chance of death when 2HKO'd (which is pretty much anything with a Tiger) and a .85% chance of death when 3HKO (pretty much everything without a Tiger). If he loses the thicket his chances of death go up to 8.68% and 4.72% respectively. If he loses Micaiah instead of the thicket for whatever reason it goes up to 14.03% and 8.90%.

If we're complaining about Zihark in 3-6, I don't know how we can't complain about Sothe. His 3-6 is not good. He's salvageable in this chapter using beastkiller tricks. He might as well not exist from here on out.

First is Sothe.

My opinion on Sothe is, if not already apparent, that his position is already at the level where I have to question what strands of reason can possibly support it and any higher than that and we move to the point where I have to believe the lot of you who support it are insane.

Next is both Titanias vs Ike.

Titania(T) can go above Ike. Titania(N) could go above Sothe. Volug could drop under her.

Lastly, Haar.

Might as well just combine Ike and Ike(T).

[RNG Princess]

Sothe belongs in high of High tier because at least Haar and Titania can use hammer in endgame and I think Nasir helps them double, plus she can use wyrmslayer. Sothe lacks their potential past part 1 where he is left to be a side helper, and unlike them fixing him up would cost more or be more trouble and his 22str cap limits him too much even after he promotes his str is low and he has no brave weapons.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Florete]

If this is the ridiculous claim that Sothe's durability is fine with Resolve, I question why anyone actually believe it holds water.

I never mentioned Resolve. I mentioned Sothe's fog vision and Laguz movement in swamp.

If we're complaining about Zihark in 3-6, I don't know how we can't complain about Sothe. His 3-6 is not good. He's salvageable in this chapter using beastkiller tricks. He might as well not exist from here on out.

Base Zihark has 5 less HP and 1 less Def, a higher base level, less time to level, and barely better defensive growths. I hardly think they're so closely comparable.

My opinion on Sothe is, if not already apparent, that his position is already at the level where I have to question what strands of reason can possibly support it and any higher than that and we move to the point where I have to believe the lot of you who support it are insane.

Even if you don't agree with it, I don't understand what seems so terribly unreasonable about it. Is it not apparent how clutch he is many part 1 maps? Honestly, look at Ike's position. The guy is arguably not even the best on his team for a while, and there are many competent units around him. As opposed to Sothe having probably the best combination of mobility and 1-2 range in his team until Tormod, Ike doesn't even have 1-2 range for his first few maps and when he gets it, it still sucks.

I'm not trying to say Sothe > Ike because I think Ike's part 4 at least outweighs any other advantages, but a tier's worth of difference? It's understandable, but the more I look at things the more I have to disagree with it.

Might as well just combine Ike and Ike(T).

That depends on if Ike(T) moves down or not first.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

If the resources needed argument applied to Titania keeps her out of Top, the same should apply for Mia (T).

Haar vs Ike (T) is almost the same as Haar vs Ike, except that Ike (T) can double SMs, but this is not a big deal. Haar's offense and defense are still beast, and flight pushes him over the top.

[Florete]

Haar vs Ike (T) is almost the same as Haar vs Ike, except that Ike (T) can double SMs, but this is not a big deal. Haar's offense and defense are still beast, and flight pushes him over the top.

Not at all. Ike(T) is much less prone to being Spd screwed on account of his middling growth, he doubles some 20 AS enemies in early maps that he didn't before, and he can get much better Res and Lck via BEXP after other stats cap to nullify those weaknesses.

[dondon151]

I guess a minor drawback is that he's harder to kill in 3-13 =/

[Florete]

I guess a minor drawback is that he's harder to kill in 3-13 =/

The irony. Making the main character stronger makes a chapter more difficult. But that's why I like to have third tier Jill with Resolve.