FE9 Tier List

[Vykan12]

Then you'd hold her back for safety's sake at the point where wrath is active. Wasting it.

Lethe > nephenee without it though.

It’s only a “waste” if anyone is making significantly better use of vantage. Zihark was brought up, but vantage + adept only works on what he 2HKOes, and adept’s activation rate is ass, so it’s not really helping him much. Moreover, adept would’ve activated whether he had vantage or not, so vantage is only really boosting his durability by a slim amount. Neph getting occasional surges of wtfcrit for a while is already arguably > that, and then she only gets to be able to sustain a wrath’ed state longer and longer as the game goes on.

That lethe > nephenee in more chapters than Nephenee > lethe.

If vantage + wrath is acting as a tiebreaker in that comparison, then I suspect something is very wrong. Again, that combo is only a minor advantage for Neph since it the amount of situations it can be applied to is pretty limited, and Neph doesn’t have enough offensive issues for guaranteed killing to be a huge boost in performance.

I guess I’ll fish out that Neph vs Lethe comparison in this topic. Ctrl+f for the win.

[Zkirsche]

It’s only a “waste” if anyone is making significantly better use of vantage. Zihark was brought up, but vantage + adept only works on what he 2HKOes, and adept’s activation rate is ass, so it’s not really helping him much. Moreover, adept would’ve activated whether he had vantage or not, so vantage is only really boosting his durability by a slim amount. Neph getting occasional surges of wtfcrit for a while is already arguably > that, and then she only gets to be able to sustain a wrath’ed state longer and longer as the game goes on.

Some use of it > No use of it, which is my point. Nephenee is so fragile with wrath activated that she can't risk being attacked. Zihark can at least attack as normal with it as his durability isn't threatened by him going to half HP.

If vantage + wrath is acting as a tiebreaker in that comparison, then I suspect something is very wrong. Again, that combo is only a minor advantage for Neph since it the amount of situations it can be applied to is pretty limited, and Neph doesn’t have enough offensive issues for guaranteed killing to be a huge boost in performance.

I guess I’ll fish out that Neph vs Lethe comparison in this topic. Ctrl+f for the win.

We'll give Nephenee 2 levels of bexp, to be fair:

Level 9/0 Nephenee with forged steel (15 MT, 12 Wt): 23 HP, 24 Atk, 12 AS, 30.5 Avo, 10 Def, 4 Res. 76 gold per attack

Level 3 Lethe: 34 HP, 26 atk, 15 AS, 45 Avo, 16 Def, 10 Res. 0 gold per attack

Lethe beats Nephenee in every parameter. Nephenee is more expensive, less durable and worse offensively. Lethe also has more movement. So yeah, Lethe >>>>> Nephenee when Nephenee joins.

A few chapters later (Say, chapter 14), we'll give Nephenee a nice big 1.4 levels per chapter, whilst giving Lethe a mere level. Since Brom doesn't want nephenee (Boyd is better), we won't give her brom. Stats:

Level 13/0 Nephenee with forged steel (15 Atk): 25 HP, 25 Atk, 14 AS, 35.5 Avo, 11 Def, 4.5 Res. 66 Gold per attack.

Level 4 Lethe: 35 HP, 26.5 Atk, 16 AS, 47.5 Avo, 15 Def, 10 Res. 0 gold per attack.

Lethe is STILL winning in every parameter. Lol.

Chapter 18, let's give Nephenee a nice 1.3 levels per chapter as she isn't quite so under levelled anymore. We'll give Lethe a level every 2 chapters as she isn't quite so overlevelled anymore. Lethe has 'B' Jill by now. Let's check it out:

Level 20/1 Nephenee with same forge: 33 HP, 30 Atk, 20 AS, 49 Avo, 16 Def, 8 Res. 66 gold per attack

Level 7 Lethe, 'B' Jill: 39 HP, 28 Atk, 18 AS, 58 Avo, 17 Def, 11 Res. 0 Gold per attack

Offensively, it's a tie. Lethe has more movement than nephenee, which matters in a team of paladins, but Nephenee has slightly more Atk (18 AS is still enougth to double near-everything).

Defensively, Lethe wins with 6 HP, 9 Avo, 1 Def and 3 Res. She can also outrun enemies.

Lethe provides support bonuses. Nephenee doesn't.

Lethe STILL wins.

So yeah, Lethe is comparable to Nephenee, an upper-mid tier unit. Lethe for upper mid.

--------

First, I'd like to point out that endgame weighs less than mid-game for the aforementioned reason (There are underlevelled units mid-game such as Jill, Marcia, Zihark, Nephenee, Astrid, Makalov and Brom. However, there's no such underlevelled units late game.)

Next, I'd like to remind everyone that Lethe wins support for having 2 support partners who want her: Muarim and Jill. Boyd loves the attack and def from Mist, so Mist may not even want Jill. Even if she did, Mist would get 'A' Mordy since water x water = pwnage. Haar only gives Jill 8 more avo but very late on in the game. She'd much rather have the quick, more beneficial option from Lethe. As for Muarim, he has either Lethe or Largo.... easy choice. So Lethe gets 'A' Jill, 'B' Muarim. Nephenee has fail supports - Devdan and Calill = fail. Brom prefers the earth support from Zihark and the Atk from Boyd. Boyd, as i mentioend before, loves def.

Lethe also has more movement than Nephenee, 9 mov is important when you look at the movement ranges of all these units: Mordecai, Muarim, Titania, Kieran, Astrid, Makalov, Oscar, Tanith, Marcia and Jill. What do all these units have in common? 9 mov (After promotion, that is). Staying on the front lines- and in the firing lines of the enemy - is a diffcult task for nephenee and her 9 mov.

I showed how Lethe > Nephenee for chapters 11-18, that's 11 chapters. Lethe also has use in Chapter 10 by rescuing units to help achieve the bexp requirements. So that's +12 for lethe. How many chapters are left after chapter 18? 11. So even if Lethe was +0 for all those chapters, She'd still have a lead over nephenee.

Lethe > Nephenee.

------

This was my argument. There were also others, like Mordy vs neph and Yzarc's Zihark vs neph. So yeah, there's a lot ot be countered to move her back where she was.

Edit: Neph is slightly overlevelled for generousity's sake. Realistically, she's level 19. Like I previously pointed out. Without promo bonuses, Lethe > Neph.

Lethe also has less of a chance to become RNG screwed, if that makes a differance.

Edited June 13, 2009 by kirsche

[Vykan12]

Okay so Lethe vs Neph.

Since Brom doesn't want nephenee (Boyd is better)

??? Brom has 2 support slots you know, and doesn’t care who he’s supporting (he wants AS, not atk, def and avo). There’s no issue with this support happening.

First, I'd like to point out that endgame weighs less than mid-game for the aforementioned reason (There are underlevelled units mid-game such as Jill, Marcia, Zihark, Nephenee, Astrid, Makalov and Brom. However, there's no such underlevelled units late game.)

That’s not a reason, since all those characters have poor earlygame periods held against them when considering their ranking.

As for Muarim, he has either Lethe or Largo.... easy choice.

Or is it? Muarim B Lethe takes 6 chapters, which means Muarim gets a piddly +5 avo from Lethe for a total of 5 chapters before C Largo takes effect, then he has 3 chapters of getting +10 avo with his new partner, and at a point where having high avo would make the biggest difference.

Sure, Largo might not be in play, but you can’t dismiss it so easily.

Nephenee has fail supports - Devdan and Calill = fail.

Neither of those units fail at all, which is something I’m going to be bringing to attention sooner or later.

Anyway, the main problem with that whole comparison you made was that it didn’t mention transform issues a single time. First of all, Lethe joins before the demi-band is even available, so we can’t just slap it on her immediately to give her constant transformed status, though even if we could, that cuts into a lot of Lethe’s statistical leads. Second, her untansformed state makes up roughly half of her total existence in a chapter, maybe 1/3 at best (I can’t find any gauge data on the site). That’s a huge flaw, almost comparable to snipers not being able to counter at 1 range. That also hurts Lethe’s movement advantage a lot since her average movement falls to 8 instead of 9, less if you consider she’s probably trying to avoid enemies altogether when reverted.

It would be one thing if Lethe were absolutely eating Neph for breakfast statistically. However, comparisons like these don’t strike me as wtfblowout.

Level 13/0 Nephenee with forged steel (15 Atk): 25 HP, 25 Atk, 14 AS, 35.5 Avo, 11 Def, 4.5 Res. 66 Gold per attack.

Level 4 Lethe: 35 HP, 26.5 Atk, 16 AS, 47.5 Avo, 15 Def, 10 Res. 0 gold per attack.

Lethe’s durability leads are pretty considerable here, but then on offence we’re only talking +1-2 atk and +2 AS (less if KW).

Surely enough, Neph starts tying Lethe statistically about halfway through her own playtime, which means once we add transform issues (no 1-2 range too, but that’s another story), then Neph starts winning by a lot.

Edit: Before you say it, I've seen the argument a million times that early transform allows Lethe to maintain transformation until the chapter is practically over. I don't necessarily buy that chapters are that short, especially past midgame, but again, I need gauge data to confirm any of this.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Vykan12

[Tino]

Some use of it > No use of it, which is my point. Nephenee is so fragile with wrath activated that she can't risk being attacked. Zihark can at least attack as normal with it as his durability isn't threatened by him going to half HP.

I take it you haven't bothered looking at some numbers vykan conveniently provided? That Nephenee's durability isn't bad at all even with her hp below half her maximum? After she just promoted, at least.

I personally found the whole discussion about wrath and all that shit a little confusing, but what the fuck are you arguing about? How can you possibly even think that having wrath is a negative? It's just a nice asset for when she drops below half health, and otherwise it's not a negative either. How good it is compared to adept is pretty fucking irrelevant as well, since it's activation rate is pretty ballz until very late in the game where dudes and dudettes might finally have somewhat sweet skillz to have a decent activation rate with it.

Oh yeah, and arguing about who should get vantage completely dependent on what skill the characters have is also pretty damn stupid. First of all vantage is a limited resource. There's a grand total of one vantage scroll in the game, and many people want it for either this sweet guaranteed OHKO against an already weakened enemy, or otherwise for a much higher chance to ORKO without taking any damage at all due to somewhat reliable crit. And there are more people with adept/wrath/whatever who can make good use of it.

Also, if you can show that A > B without vantage, it seems fairly logical to me that A > B with vantage, especially if there's an entire argument revolving around adept vs. wrath, two skills which are but niceties and nothing you can rely on, and therefore are practically equal in worth.

Lethe provides support bonuses. Nephenee doesn't.

(( Note: This is for supports in general, not just for the comparisons you provided ))

Riiiiight. Since when does Nephenee not get any supports while Lethe with her massive uber crap affinity does?

Brom isn't the best of units, but Devdan and Calill are both rather good units for the time they're there, and both really wouldn't mind a Nephenee support. Especially Calill wants Nephenee instead of Geoffrey or Tormod, since she wants durability (avo) a lot more than she wants offense. Her offense is already pretty damn good, what with her good mag/spd and high weapon levels. Devdan may want Tormod for higher atk, but if he indeed gets Tormod, there's still room for Nephenee... Unless he wants to wait for Largo to join just to get the same bonuses...

Lethe definitely won't support Ike for fairly obvious reasons, I'd say, and then there are Jill, Muarim and Ranulf left. Ranulf is fairly good for the time he's there, but it gives much worse bonuses than Nephenee's supports do (lol massive hit + some avo for Lethe) and it also starts a good deal later than Nephenee/Calill. Muarim is a great unit, but it's debateable whether he wants Lethe or not. He may also want to wait until Largo joins for +10 avo instead of just the +5 Lethe provides. And then there's the matter of two laguz being played simultaneously. It's true that Lethe transforms very early (first or second turn, if I recall correctly), but that also means she'll suddenly untransform somewhere halfway through the map. So she's still dependent on the demi band, unless she wants to be useless half the time (which would definitely make her Nephenee's inferior). So I guess she could get B Jill for +1 def/+5 avo, but even that's not incredibly likely. Jill doesn't want to be stuck to some cat when she can fly somewhere to do 'good' things, while having to stick to Lethe reduces her flexibility somewhat, and it's not like she really needs the bonuses, either. In fact, she probably wants to wait until Haar joins and fly somewhere with him while getting the same bonuses +5 avo.

Lethe also has more movement than Nephenee, 9 mov is important when you look at the movement ranges of all these units: Mordecai, Muarim, Titania, Kieran, Astrid, Makalov, Oscar, Tanith, Marcia and Jill. What do all these units have in common? 9 mov (After promotion, that is). Staying on the front lines- and in the firing lines of the enemy - is a diffcult task for nephenee and her 9 mov.

She has more movement when transformed, yes. When she's not, she has only 7 mov and is unable to do anything but shove. Or she gets the demi band and has 9 mov all the time, but that means you can't effectively use more valuable laguz units like Mordecai and Muarim anymore, which means you're effectively reducing the team's overall efficiency.

So overall I wouldn't count Lethe's movement as a large advantage, especially when it's a nill advantage compared to the disadvantages she has.

I showed how Lethe > Nephenee for chapters 11-18, that's 11 chapters. Lethe also has use in Chapter 10 by rescuing units to help achieve the bexp requirements. So that's +12 for lethe. How many chapters are left after chapter 18? 11. So even if Lethe was +0 for all those chapters, She'd still have a lead over nephenee.

lulz. counting chapter 17 as 4 chapters.

Chapter 17 can't be counted as 4 seperate chapters. The first two maps have fairly low enemy density and thus can be counted as 1 chapter together. I also wouldn't really count the other two parts as full chapters, but also not as half chapters. So that means there are only 9-10 chapters left.

Neph is slightly overlevelled for generousity's sake. Realistically, she's level 19. Like I previously pointed out. Without promo bonuses, Lethe > Neph.

lvl 19 in chapter 18? I guess you're insane or something. That has nothing to do with inflating her level, but more with lowering her level for the sake of winning the argument with inappropriate numbers.

Lethe joins massively underlevelled and can gain something like 1.75 levels per chapter. Of course this gets less as time goes on, but even then... I really think she can promote by chapter 18. All it requires her is to gain 14 levels in ~9 chapters. With BEXP and her earlygame underlevelledness, I'd say that's perfectly possible.

20/1 Nephenee, C Devdan (+2 avo)

33 hp, 15 str, 19 skl, 20 spd, 16 def, 9 res, 10 luc, 52 avo

Steel Lance: 25 atk

--/7 Lethe, B Jill (+1 def, +5 avo)

39 hp, 12 def, 9 res, 17 luc, 52 avo (untransformed)

39 hp, 20 str, 18 skl, 18 spd, 17 def, 12 res, 17 luc, 58 avo (transformed)

39 hp, 17 str, 16 skl, 16 spd, 14 def, 11 res, 17 luc, 54 avo (demi band)

Claw: 25-28 atk

So Lethe only wins when she's transformed without the demi band, but that will revert her back to 'massive fail' halfway through the chapter. And she may win a little with the demi band due to higher movement and +6 hp, but then you need to consider that she prevents two better units, Muarim and Mordecai, from using it, which means your team is actually worse off.

So Nephenee definitely wins here, and this same situation applies practically all the time. But then you need to consider Nephenee's ability to use killer and slayer weapons for generally larger offense, and silver simply for a large atk lead when Lethe is stuck to her whimpy 8 mt claw.

[Zkirsche]

lvl 19 in chapter 18? I guess you're insane or something. That has nothing to do with inflating her level, but more with lowering her level for the sake of winning the argument with inappropriate numbers.

Neph is just not good enougth for 1.75 levels per chapter. 1.4 levels is much mroe appropriate.

??? Brom has 2 support slots you know, and doesn’t care who he’s supporting (he wants AS, not atk, def and avo). There’s no issue with this support happening.

Still, Zihark's avo > Neph's hit and avo. Which is why Brom gets Boyd and Zihark

That’s not a reason, since all those characters have poor earlygame periods held against them when considering their ranking.

I think you misunderstood, Lethe is good when those units aren't. Neph is good when those units are.

Or is it? Muarim B Lethe takes 6 chapters, which means Muarim gets a piddly +5 avo from Lethe for a total of 5 chapters before C Largo takes effect, then he has 3 chapters of getting +10 avo with his new partner, and at a point where having high avo would make the biggest difference.

Sure, Largo might not be in play, but you can’t dismiss it so easily.

If we were to look at it from perspective... Muarim gets +5 avo for 1 chapter, +10 for 3. So that's +35 avo overall.

Lethe gives Muarim +2 avo for 1 chapter, then +5 for the next 11 chapters. This is +57 avo overall. Even if the avo was worth 1.5 times more in Largo's chapters supporting Muarim, this only leads to +52.5 avo overall. That's still less.

Largo -- Muarim < Muarim -- Lethe.

Neither of those units fail at all, which is something I’m going to be bringing to attention sooner or later.

Perhaps not, but they're in no way spectacular. And there isn't enougth spaces to fir them all in. There's around 13 slots per chapter. Just take chapter 18, for example:

1) Ike

2) Titania

3) Oscar

4) Kieran

5) Muarim

6) Mordecai

7) Astrid

8) Makalov

9) Jill

10) Marcia

11) Lethe

12) Nephenee

13) Tanith

All this is ignoring Boyd, who's very good also. So yeah, don't expect those units being fielded anytime soon.

Anyway, the main problem with that whole comparison you made was that it didn’t mention transform issues a single time. First of all, Lethe joins before the demi-band is even available, so we can’t just slap it on her immediately to give her constant transformed status, though even if we could, that cuts into a lot of Lethe’s statistical leads. Second, her untansformed state makes up roughly half of her total existence in a chapter, maybe 1/3 at best (I can’t find any gauge data on the site). That’s a huge flaw, almost comparable to snipers not being able to counter at 1 range. That also hurts Lethe’s movement advantage a lot since her average movement falls to 8 instead of 9, less if you consider she’s probably trying to avoid enemies altogether when reverted.

This isn't RD, stats aren't halved. Lethe isn't double untransformed anymore, and hre good durability helps her to survive untransformed (Over 30 HP is good. Her base avo is 39, too, so she can dodge a little)

It would be one thing if Lethe were absolutely eating Neph for breakfast statistically. However, comparisons like these don’t strike me as wtfblowout.

Lethe beats Nephenee in every parameter, how is that NOT a total blowout?

Lethe’s durability leads are pretty considerable here, but then on offence we’re only talking +1-2 atk and +2 AS (less if KW).

10HP + 4 Def + 12 avo = Very considerable. Not considerable.

That +2 AS is useful in doubling more enemies, meanign the attack is much higher. Eitehr way, nephenee is inferier, even if it's only slightly.

1 level of knight ward usage doesn't allow them to tie in speed.

Surely enough, Neph starts tying Lethe statistically about halfway through her own playtime, which means once we add transform issues (no 1-2 range too, but that’s another story), then Neph starts winning by a lot.

That's post chapter 18, though, as I've shown how Lethe is superier at that point in time.

1-2 range enemies aren't uber common though, and lethe has an advantage against all non 1-2 range enemies. Overall, Lethe is better against most enemies, thus making her the most useful.

Edited June 13, 2009 by kirsche

[Vykan12]

Neph is just not good enougth for 1.75 levels per chapter. 1.4 levels is much mroe appropriate.

At her base level of 8, she’s getting 12 exp per hit, 29 exp per kill. 4 kills and 2 hits alone would net her 1.4 levels in her joining chapter, so just adding on a little BEXP in addition to that could get her 1.75 / chapter. Yes, units level faster than enemies, but Neph is also getting better at killing enemies, so it balances out.

Still, Zihark's avo > Neph's hit and avo. Which is why Brom gets Boyd and Zihark

*Facepalm* Now you’re just being biased. Disallowing Neph a support so that Brom can gain an extra 5 avo is downright ridiculous.

I think you misunderstood, Lethe is good when those units aren't. Neph is good when those units are.

There’s also something to be said of Lethe being bad at a time where everyone is good.

Muarim gets +5 avo for 1 chapter, +10 for 3. So that's +35 avo overall.Lethe gives Muarim +2 avo for 1 chapter, then +5 for the next 11 chapters. This is +57 avo overall.

First off, your numbers are wrong. Lethe gives Muarim +2 avo for 3 chapters, then 8 chapters with +5 avo, which adds up to 46. Now the difference between Muarim and Largo is only 11 avo.

Anyway, this whole “summing up avo” deal is flawed because it’s a massive over-simplification. For instance, giving 2 avo for 3 chapters is so negligible it doesn’t deserve mention. Let’s say Muarim faces 53 display hit (56 real). With Lethe in range, it drops to 51 (52 real). Gee, that helped. If 45 hp/15 hp/49 avo somehow isn’t keeping Muarim sturdy on the frontlines, neither is same/same/51 avo. Now let’s do the same thing when we’re talking 10 avo. Now Muarim is going from facing 56 real to 37. That’s a huge difference, as Muarim is getting hit roughly 1/3 of the time instead of 1/2.

This also plays into my point that Muarim is getting +10 avo when he wants it the most, which is endgame. This happens to be Muarim’s weakest set of chapters, so the avo is actually making a difference, whereas adding 2-5 avo to Muarim’s midgame is nothing but overkill.

Perhaps not, but they're in no way spectacular. And there isn't enougth spaces to fir them all in. There's around 13 slots per chapter. Just take chapter 18, for example:

1) Ike

2) Titania

3) Oscar

4) Kieran

5) Muarim

6) Mordecai

7) Astrid

8) Makalov

9) Jill

10) Marcia

11) Lethe

12) Nephenee

13) Tanith

Wth, where did you get this idea we’re only fielding high/top units? The better you are, the more likely you’ll be in play, that doesn’t mean the very best units automatically take all the slots.

This isn't RD, stats aren't halved. Lethe isn't double untransformed anymore, and her good durability helps her to survive untransformed (Over 30 HP is good. Her base avo is 39, too, so she can dodge a little)

Yeah yeah I know. Though, unlike RD, laguz can’t even counter when untransformed, so for some amount of time in a chapter, Neph is competing with a 0 atk Lethe. If we do some out-of-context math as you did with the avo values, we could average Lethe’s attack. 0.33 x 0 + 0.66 x 26 = 17 atk, which is a lot less than Neph’s 25.

Lethe beats Nephenee in every parameter, how is that NOT a total blowout?

A lead only matters as much as its implications. Let’s say a unit A had certain stats, and unit B = unit A + a perfect level-up. Unit B is beating unit A in every paramater, but let’s look at how much any of it matters.

Offensively, unit B has an edge of +1 atk, +3 hit and +1 AS. Durability-wise, it’s an advantage of +1 hp, +1 def, +1 res and +3 avo. Chances are, both units still take the same amount of rounds to kill an enemy, still double the same amount of enemies, get RKOed the same amount, etc.

Either way, nephenee is inferior, even if it's only slightly.

I never said she wasn’t in that particular stat comparison. My argument was that Lethe’s stat leads weren’t big enough to offset the problems generated by transform issues.

1 level of knight ward usage doesn't allow them to tie in speed.

It’s more of a long term thing. Being under-levelled + having an 85% spd growth is going to get Neph winning spd pretty quickly until she caps, then she can continue once promoted. Also, I don’t think you accounted for possible KW +2 def/res in any of those comparisons.

That's post chapter 18, though, as I've shown how Lethe is superier at that point in time.

What’s your point? That doesn’t prevent Neph’s post chapter 18 win from happening. When we factor in transform issues, Lethe’s big win in chapters 11-17 are minimized while Neph’s wins in 18-F are amplified, which seems to me like an overall win for Neph, at least assuming each chapter has equal weight as you seem to be.

Anyway, I’ve had enough of this match-up. You’ve seen my side of the argument, and if you don’t agree with it, stubborn exchanges aren’t going to get us anywhere. I’d be more interested in other people’s input at this point.

[Tino]

I’d be more interested in other people’s input at this point.

Hmm...

I guess my above post qualifies?

[Dat Nick]

What I think should be kept in mind is that Neph doesn't just have Wrath+Vantage, she has it with 1-2 range. Other characters benefit from Vantage, fine, none nearly as much as Neph, as out of everybody else in the game who can get it, Neph's the only one who can actually reliably kill when it activates. The second she hits half HP, she basically enters god mode since even mages are getting owned and only longbow archers come out unscathed [And are those even common?]

Really, tell me anybody who can even KIND OF benefit from vantage as much as Neph. Before you try Zihark again, lol 1 range

Edited June 13, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[grandjackal]

Thank my lucky stars I stayed out of this one. I really don't think Lethe can beat Nephenee, despite being tons better early on (Nephenee outright destroys her post promotion)

I'd be more interested in seeing a Mordecai vs. Lethe. Utter physical defense vs. still good durability with better offense and a not shitty transform deal. Supports are also an issue, as Lethe's support just prefer her out of earliness, while Mordy's got partners that either suck or are stocked up already.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Was that sarcastic?

Yes. All the arguments against Soren revolve around his early game and that he's got doubling issues which I find to be false each and every time I compare enemy stats. Then this whole "reliant on forges" thing is just...

@Cynthia: Forging 3 tomes for him isn't even necessary. Just a full MT tome will suffice for use when it's necessary to 1 round enemies and isn't doing so, which isn't likely post promotion.

Nephenee > Lethe

I honestly don't think Geoffry makes up for the time he hasn't been around.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

Any reason why Volke > Muarim? Volke has pathetic offence (Doubling is nice, but attack is meh), and his thieving utility isn't very unique as Sothe can steal things just as well as he can - except Sothe can provide useful support bonuses.

Muarim, on the other hand, is great with supports (Zihark and Lethe are both great units) and is great offensively and defensively.

Muarim > Volke.

I can even see Volke going down even more. Why he is so high, I'll never understand. Where, I'm not too sure, but definitely lower. Sothe and Volke need to be closer.

@Sirius: Whilst his offence is good, his durability just isn't very good at all. This means we can't have him being attacked so he sees less enemy phrase action. He's like Shinon, except you can tank better with Shinon.

In all honesty, the only reason Soren >>>>>>>> Shinon is availability and better offence on the player phrase.

Edited June 13, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

@Sirius: Whilst his offence is good, his durability just isn't very good at all. This means we can't have him being attacked so he sees less enemy phrase action. He's like Shinon, except you can tank better with Shinon.

I am well aware of this. However, his positioning was on that as well as the so called "doubling" issues which turned out to be a stinking myth.

[-Cynthia-]

Yes. All the arguments against Soren revolve around his early game and that he's got doubling issues which I find to be false each and every time I compare enemy stats. Then this whole "reliant on forges" thing is just...

Even when Soren doubles earlygame, his damage output isn't very good. You don't seem to be grasping the concept that pre-promotion Soren loses AS from every tome in the game, thus he's going to require a forge with min WT to continue doubling. Post-promotion he can at least use the basic tomes, maybe Elfire/Elthunder while still losing some, but is inferior when using A rank or long range tomes. It's pretty obvious to everyone else, I don't see what you don't understand about it.

@Cynthia: Forging 3 tomes for him isn't even necessary. Just a full MT tome will suffice for use when it's necessary to 1 round enemies and isn't doing so, which isn't likely post promotion.

Don't forget Min Wt as well. Also, Soren doesn't promote until significantly later in his availability, probably sometime during Chapter 17, Soren's time pre promotion is rather important. And he still isn't durable post promotion.

I honestly don't think Geoffry makes up for the time he hasn't been around.

I think you're pretty much alone on this one.

As for other points:

Volke is much more durable than Sothe, thus he is a better theif. Sothe's durability issues keep him from being a good support partner as well, and in all likelihood he's only maybe supporting Astrid anyway.

Lethe's supports are better than Mordecai? Water affinity as opposed to Heaven. Mordecai has Stefan who has no other choice, Mist likes Water X Water, Illyana will take Mordy if she's in place, so will Ranulf. I would say his supports are better than Lethe's. Mordy's offense is pretty good IMO, he can double reliably for a while and can just OHKO weaker enemies.

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Even when Soren doubles earlygame, his damage output isn't very good. You don't seem to be grasping the concept that pre-promotion Soren loses AS from every tome in the game, thus he's going to require a forge with min WT to continue doubling. Post-promotion he can at least use the basic tomes, maybe Elfire/Elthunder while still losing some, but is inferior when using A rank or long range tomes. It's pretty obvious to everyone else, I don't see what you don't understand about it.

You don't seem to be grasping that he can double despite the AS loss unless you give him a heavy tome to nuke his doubling which would make you a retard. The examples I showed of him doubling the enemies in his joining chapter took the AS loss from Wind so saying "he requires a forge with min WT to double" is invalid. Soren with a band that gives him SPD is a 90% chance that every 2 level ups he'll gain SPD while enemies such as Soldiers, Fighters and Knights, which are rather common in the early game see little AS improvement and are fucking morons wielding weapons that drop their AS.

You use a heavier tome if he's doubling with, you use a lighter tome if he's not. It's not detrimental to use a lighter tome, it's detrimental to use a heavy tome if it stops him from doubling. If you're changing to a lighter tome because he's doubling with it, it's not losing power as the damage output is greater.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[Tino]

Sorry, but I would still like to continue to talk about Lethe, as upper mid is way too far-fetched for her.

First off, you can't simply shove off the whole transformation deal by saying that she transforms early and thus doesn't really mind. That's the largest piece of bullshit I've ever heard.

Lethe transforming early obviously allows her to get into action immediately, but it also means she untransforms somewhere halfway through the chapter, still practically halving her overall usefulness. Can she use the demi band? Yes, of course she can. But there are two units, Mordecai and Muarim, who are much better than her. Lethe taking the demi band instead of one of them thus means lowering the team's overall efficiency.

No matter how you look at it, the fact she's a laguz hurts her in practically every way possible. Either she deprives a better unit of it, or she's useful only half the time. Both are large negatives that can't just be shoved off.

Now, I can't deny Lethe is pretty damn great in her early chapter statistically when not looking at her transformation problem, but that's exactly what people are severely underestimating; her transformation problem. She suffers a lot more from it than people like Muarim and Mordecai, since they're both a good deal better than Lethe.

Oh yeah, and Lethe can still 2-3RKO quite a lot somewhat later in the game, but there's still the whole transformation thing which is building up more and more negativity on her side.

[Dat Nick]

Even when Soren doubles earlygame, his damage output isn't very good. You don't seem to be grasping the concept that pre-promotion Soren loses AS from every tome in the game, thus he's going to require a forge with min WT to continue doubling.

i don't think you're grasping the concept that Soren with Wind>>Ilyana with most other tomes. Btw, at lvl 12 his str rounds up to 1, allowing him to use Wind with no AS loss.

Don't forget Min Wt as well.

it's wind

why bother

Oh, btw

15/0 Soren, Elwind: 19 ATK [b Ike], 13 AS, 16% Adept, 8% Crit

15/0 Ilyana, Elthunder: 19 ATK, 9 AS, 17% Crit

lawlz. 4 AS for 1 ATK? If Soren is bad then I can't even begin to imagine why Ilyana isn't low tier.

oh ya, and Flier effective>>>>>>>>>>>dragon effective

Edited June 13, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[-Cynthia-]

You don't seem to be grasping that he can double despite the AS loss unless you give him a heavy tome to nuke his doubling which would make you a retard. The examples I showed of him doubling the enemies in his joining chapter took the AS loss from Wind so saying "he requires a forge with min WT to double" is invalid. Soren with a band that gives him SPD is a 90% chance that every 2 level ups he'll gain SPD while enemies such as Soldiers, Fighters and Knights, which are rather common in the early game see little AS improvement and are fucking morons wielding weapons that drop their AS.

I was talking more about if Soren wanted to use non-Wind tomes, he luckily only loses 1 from Wind but 3 from Thunder/ Fire. He would rather like the atk boost from Thunder/Fire if he ever wantsdecent offense, with a Wind tome he only has 10 Mt, with a Wind tome he's mostly 4HKOing, which for the record, is bad. It's not like he doubles that often with Wind either, he only has 8 AS so he's only doubling things with 4 and below, again not very enemies are that slow at this point.

Level 4 Soren with a Thunder/Fire tome only has 6 AS. Chapter 8 enemies do not reach the level of 2 AS at all really, and enemies in previous chapters only do so very rarely.

I also don't really care much about Soren/Illyana comparisons, she isn't good earlygame either. He's better than Rolf too, but do we really give a shit?

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Tino]

oh ya, and Flier effective>>>>>>>>>>>dragon effective

Since when are they restricted to using the type of tome they have the highest base weapon level for?

[Dat Nick]

The fact that Soren has no reason nor desire to use Thunder when there aren't any dragons around and Ilyana pulling out Wind will destroy the only winning point she has over Soren may have something to do with that.

either way effective boost is still playing in Soren's favor since he can target them with Elwind and Ilyana just has to use plain old wind

I also don't really care much about Soren/Illyana comparsions, she isn't good earlygame either.

k

That was an issue earlier, I thought it still was. I don't particularly care if Soren goes down so long as he doesn't go below Ilyana.

Edited June 13, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[-Cynthia-]

]

The fact that Soren has no reason nor desire to use Thunder when there aren't any dragons around and Ilyana pulling out Wind will destroy the only winning point she has over Soren may have something to do with that.

Extra Mt. He's going to have problems even 2RKOing with Wind.

That was an issue earlier, I thought it still was. I don't particularly care if Soren goes down so long as he doesn't go below Ilyana.

I'm not even trying to argue Soren any further down at this point (although reasonably he could go below Brom IMO), it's whether he's better than Geoffrey. He would actually have to be a significant positive during the time he's around and he really isn't.

I would say transforming at the beginning of the fight is better than the middle, but Tino still has a good point. Transformation issues cannot just be wrriten off, Lethe usually has several turns in a chapter of just standing there.

Edited June 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

Extra Mt. He's going to have problems even 2RKOing with Wind.

You're forgetting. Elwind. and how would her MT be better with Wind even if he didn't have Elwind?

He would actually have to be a significant positive during the time he's around and he really isn't.

overall this depends on how much his midgame betterness is compensating for his earlygame sucks. This raises a vital question. How many chapters does he suck, and how many chapters does he not? He's also good by the time Geoff shows.

Edited June 13, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Extra Mt. He's going to have problems even 2RKOing with Wind.

I'm not even trying to argue Soren any further down at this point (although reasonably he could go below Brom IMO), it's whether he's better than Geoffrey. He would actually have to be a significant positive during the time he's around and he really isn't.

And it's going to be more troublesome if you give him Thunder so he only wants it if Wind isn't doubling -__-. His MAG isn't static and enemies' res doesn't see much improvement. The fact that he has problems 2RKOing has already been noted.

Geoffrey isn't as much of a positive as you make it seem since he's just another combat unit when you've already got plenty though his MOV is definitely great during 4 of the 5 chapters. Also, lvl 4 on C9? Doesn't this game have BEXP? and if Soren's a part of your team on a playthrough he's obviously going to get some so why underlevel him?

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Lethe's supports are better than Mordecai? Water affinity as opposed to Heaven. Mordecai has Stefan who has no other choice, Mist likes Water X Water, Illyana will take Mordy if she's in place, so will Ranulf. I would say his supports are better than Lethe's. Mordy's offense is pretty good IMO, he can double reliably for a while and can just OHKO weaker enemies.

Mist has Titania, Jill and Boyd as options that come earlier, Illyana suffers from a severe case of teh suck (as the green pegasi knight will show), and Ranulf comes a bit late along with making water not very effective. So he'll have an A with Ranulf, which is +1 ATK and DEF with 9 avoid, which is bupkis as far as I'm concerned. B with Stefan gives another 1 to ATK and Def and 0 to AS and 0 to his gauge. Either way it doesn't solve his main problem, AS and his late transform gauge. He's already powerful and durable enough, but so is Lethe. Lethe on the other hand is pretty much garunteed hers, as a B B. Her offense is great as is, her defense becomes better, but more importantly she's giving boosts to people that can't get it anywhere else. Those people, Jill and Muarim (who essentially beats out Mordecai in every single way) are also pretty damn awesome. Other benefits are that They can keep up with her, while Mist lags before promotion, and Stefan does have a bit of lag between him and Mordy.

Sorry, but I would still like to continue to talk about Lethe, as upper mid is way too far-fetched for her.

First off, you can't simply shove off the whole transformation deal by saying that she transforms early and thus doesn't really mind. That's the largest piece of bullshit I've ever heard.

This isn't FE10, her untransformed is not as big a deal. Sure she can't counter, but it just gets her gauge built up faster so she has even less problems with it. She's fast enough on foot to avoid being doubled, she's not exactly paper. Some guys are even ranged, and you'd be rediculous to have everyone equipped with nothing but hand axes and javelins.

Lethe transforming early obviously allows her to get into action immediately, but it also means she untransforms somewhere halfway through the chapter, still practically halving her overall usefulness. Can she use the demi band? Yes, of course she can. But there are two units, Mordecai and Muarim, who are much better than her. Lethe taking the demi band instead of one of them thus means lowering the team's overall efficiency.

Using it better, and sort of needing it is the difference. She starts transformed, she doesn't need the damn thing. The hardest part of the battle is most usually the start of it. They need it if they want to be useful immediately, and she doesn't. Mordy's problem is the worst, he transforms around the time the battle is practically over.

No matter how you look at it, the fact she's a laguz hurts her in practically every way possible. Either she deprives a better unit of it, or she's useful only half the time. Both are large negatives that can't just be shoved off.

Most of the people currently below her have move problems compared to her 9. She's not transformed all the time, they aren't reaching the front lines all the time. Another note is that thanks to not everyone going to have 1-2 range weapons equipped all the time, some ranged people are bound to attack defenseless people anyhow. Might as well attack laguz to build up their gauge, not like they can't take a shot. Besides, when she's transformed she has better offense than most of your guys, if not all of them, especially early on.

Now, I can't deny Lethe is pretty damn great in her early chapter statistically when not looking at her transformation problem, but that's exactly what people are severely underestimating; her transformation problem. She suffers a lot more from it than people like Muarim and Mordecai, since they're both a good deal better than Lethe.

Oh yeah, and Lethe can still 2-3RKO quite a lot somewhat later in the game, but there's still the whole transformation thing which is building up more and more negativity on her side.

Mordy's problem is much worse, Lethe could have skills (she puts them to better use), he has generally the same problem except untransformed he's doubled (if he's got demi-band equipped, he might get doubled even transformed), Lethe's supporting others (and is more garunteed to them).

If you wanna argue a laguz down, it's Mordy.

[Vykan12]

his thieving utility isn't very unique as Sothe can steal things just as well as he can

Fighting utility isn’t very unique at all.

Muarim, on the other hand, is great with supports (Zihark and Lethe are both great units)

The Zihark support sure, but Muarim x Lethe is just a likely support that gives crappy bonuses.

I can even see Volke going down even more. Why he is so high, I'll never understand.

You didn’t give his thieving utility due consideration (saying Sothe can do it too doesn’t completely dismiss it. Serra doesn’t suddenly become bad/useless/wtv because Priscilla can heal).

Chapter 10: Statue frag, counter scroll, javelin, short axe, steel lance.

Chapter 13: Killer bow, elfire, laguz axe, longsword, occult, energy drop, speedwing.

Chapter 14 (desert)*: Boots, white gem, shine, physic, silver blade, statue frag, guard scroll.

Chapter 15: Ashera icon, silver lance, physic, bolting, full guard, dracoshield.

Chapter 18: Recover, wrath, silence.

Chapter 21: Stiletto, parity, energy drop, talisman, corrosion, thoron, master seal, brave sword.

Chapter 22: Sleep, nosferatu, spirit dust, silver bow, tomahawk, bolagnoe

Chapter 27: Spear, fortify, resolve, bolganoe, laguz axe, physics, silver lance.

*I’m not sure if POR and RD have the same desert finding calculation, but if they do, then the following is true: Success rate = skill + thief bonus + biorhythm bonus [%]. The thief bonus is a massive 60%. For perspective, if Volke and another unit have 20 skill and neutral bio, we’re comparing a 1/5 chance of finding treasure to a 4/5 one.

Those are all the chests in the game according to this. I bolded the items I thought were especially good pick-ups. All stat boosters were bolded since even the bad ones can be sold for 4k. Even after Sothe and chest keys, Volke still gets a lot of partial credit for these acquisitions, and IMO they’re pretty considerable.

There’s also his stealing to consider. I don’t have any specific data on that, but I know Volke can steal vulneraries, elixirs and physics fairly frequently over the course of the game, as well as a brave lance from the chp 27 boss. Then Volke helps open doors easier/saves you from using door keys for what it’s worth.

The problem is weighing these item acquisitions alone against other melee units. Personally, I think he definitely should be somewhere around upper-mid/high, just not sure where.

@Sirius: Whilst his offence is good, his durability just isn't very good at all. This means we can't have him being attacked so he sees less enemy phrase action. He's like Shinon, except you can tank better with Shinon.

Oh come on. The bulk of Soren’s durability problems are in earlygame, he can certainly have an enemy phase later on.

Let’s look at a 20/5 Soren (A Ike, B Stefan, elwind): 32 hp, 27 atk, 19 AS, 7 def, 22 res, 77 avo

Let’s say this happens around where Calill joins (maybe later for B Stefan but wtv). First off, 27 atk targeting res/19 AS is rape. He has enough att to ORKO any unpromoted enemy (they’re still frequent at this point), most promoteds (sometimes requires tome switching) and his doubling is so good he can nab lv 17 myrmidons.

That shouldn’t come off as any real surprise, so let’s look at Soren’s durability now. The thing is, even though Soren has fairly sub-par concrete durability, he still has a ton of avo to make up for it. For instance, a lvl 5 steel lance!paladin has 95 hit, so Soren’s only facing 7 true hit. So even though that enemy 2HKOes him, it’s only a 0.4% chance of death. Sure, Soren is no Jill but the point is he does have an enemy phase, especially when you consider how perma 1-2 range will discourage some enemies from attacking him.

[Blacknight9]

um people i think it would be a good idea to temember on tiers that at the end of the game the chapters become longer and harder. which is what can make them more important.

i say Neph>Zihark

at the end she will be doubling almost anyone and str will be high as well. Zihark migh have more STr but it might be way to much overkill which doesn't matter if they both kill there target, ALso her defense is suburb at this point and several units may not be able to damage her that she can't double shich means he would win by default agaisnt SM's

Soren>Geof

Ok Geoffry is USLESS on mountain level being a pali. and also you already might have several good palis Titania, Oscar, Keirnan how many do you honestly need. Soren at this point will be doubling everything (except mabey swordmasters) in which case he deals damage that will either 1HKO them or severly weaken them, if you look ath the end of the game the units take in sorens 25+Mag(say level10 sage) plus (Tornado ) which is 9mt i beleve, which is at least 30 damage on anything not magical, and magic untis pale to him with his Resistance they shouldn't be able to hurt him. ALso even if he shouldn't kill them he has a good evade chance. and it isn't like we are putting him on front lines anyway,

Edited June 13, 2009 by Blacknight9