FE9 Tier list v3

[Soren37]

You DO NOT get a lot of chance between Chapter 9 and 15 to use staves. I've crunched the numbers. Even if we go right up to the max turn limit and Mist goes beyond the impossible and heals every turn and we never play pacifistically, Mist is going to be something in the region of level 7 or 8 when others are promoting. Maybe a little higher if Mist uses Ward and Torch. More realistically, she will be an even lower level. Mist is not just in the boat of needing BEXP to have good combat, she is in the boat of needing BEXP just to promote. I'm not going to begrudge her that - the pony is useful. However, I am totally 100% going to begrudge giving her BEXP just so she can make the occasional counter-attack.

I can't find that playthrough myself, but I know how much BEXP is floating around. I know because you bring it up every five minutes to justify giving outlandish volumes of BEXP to people.

You get 1585 BEXP between Ch9 and Ch15. If Mist's at level 7 or 8 by your extreme calculations, then we'll assume level 5 by efficient playing. The BEXP also includes using full deployments, no detection in Ch10, getting every character and the NPCs out, and not killing any vigilantes in Ch11. If Mist's at level 5, and we BEXP her up to Level 10, it only requires 594 BEXP, roughly a third of what you have. How are you depriving other characters of BEXP when you can bring Mist up 5 levels and still have 1000 more BEXP left over? In fact, we can bring her up to level 15 with 1044 BEXP, leaving 541 left over for other units to gobble down.

And then you're able to crown her, meaning that she now has a horse, D swords, and C staff depending on how much you healed.

[Narga_Rocks]

Not going to reply to anything else at the moment. Just wanted to say:

120 staff wexp to reach B for Rescue. 40 uses of "heal" or "mend". It takes 24 just to get to C. Tormod arrives after the last FoW map, I think. Just the early one and chapter 14, yes? Outside Hammerne (don't get until chapter 23), the C staves have 4 wexp at best.

24 + 12 = 36 staff uses, minimum. You get Rescue in chapter 20. How quickly are you thinking Tormod gets to B staves, and is he ever going to fight anything on player phase?

As for Soren, 24 uses is still a pain, Cynthia. Are you really using 8 uses per chapter to get Soren to C in 3 chapters? I mean, at that rate Mist gets nearly a level per chapter (well, 96 exp with mend, 88 with heal). 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. She's practically level 8. And the 1000 or 1500 bexp numbers were coming from where? (not that you in particular came up with it).

I think Soren will take 5 to 7 chapters to get to Physic. Maybe more. Or Mist is a lot cheaper than people gave her credit for being.

[Anouleth]

You get 1585 BEXP between Ch9 and Ch15. If Mist's at level 7 or 8 by your extreme calculations, then we'll assume level 5 by efficient playing. The BEXP also includes using full deployments, no detection in Ch10, getting every character and the NPCs out, and not killing any vigilantes in Ch11. If Mist's at level 5, and we BEXP her up to Level 10, it only requires 594 BEXP, roughly a third of what you have. How are you depriving other characters of BEXP when you can bring Mist up 5 levels and still have 1000 more BEXP left over? In fact, we can bring her up to level 15 with 1044 BEXP, leaving 541 left over for other units to gobble down.

Mist is not the only person who joins between Chapter 9 and 15. Jill, Astrid, Makalov, Gatrie, and Tormod all desire some of that BEXP.

Not that it's really a point in her favour that she needs to take between a third and two thirds of all of it.

And then you're able to crown her, meaning that she now has a horse, D swords, and C staff depending on how much you healed.

Not going to reply to anything else at the moment. Just wanted to say:

120 staff wexp to reach B for Rescue. 40 uses of "heal" or "mend". It takes 24 just to get to C. Tormod arrives after the last FoW map, I think. Just the early one and chapter 14, yes? Outside Hammerne (don't get until chapter 23), the C staves have 4 wexp at best.

24 + 12 = 36 staff uses, minimum. You get Rescue in chapter 20. How quickly are you thinking Tormod gets to B staves, and is he ever going to fight anything on player phase?

I'm not sure how quickly he'd reach B. B in time for Chapter 21 is great since he can be carried across by Marcia, but I'm not holding my breath or anything. Once he hits C and gets Ward, it's smooth sailing since he doesn't need a wounded guy to heal, but until then he's limited in what he can do.

[Soren37]

That's why if you still want to have BEXP left over, you give her a third, and hell, maybe you just leave her like that for a bit and let her use staffs for a few more chapters. Or you Seal/Crown her up to second tier.

And the other people that join.

Jill comes in with Laguz, so she can gain quite a bit of experience there, and has laguzguard for reduced damage.

Astrid has Paragon. If we wanted to bump her up to level 10, it would only require 297 BEXP to bring her there. That and if she attacks, she's gaining twice as much. You barely even have to worry about her starting off at level 1, except for enemies coming up and attacking her.

Makalov does join at level 10 first tier, so you can either baby, crown, or give him some of the BEXP that you get from later chapters. Or even some of the ~800 BEXP left over after pushing Astrid and Mist up a bit.

Gatrie's in the same boat as Makalov. He joins at mid-level first tier, and he needs the BEXP to get useful. Personally, I didn't bother with Gatrie, and looking at his tier placement, efficiency people will either dump him or use him a tiny bit after his re-recruitment.

So out of all the people given, the only other two clamoring for BEXP are Jill and Makalov, as Astrid's set with Paragon, and Gatrie will probably be left behind unless you want to have at least one General, and even then, Brom's the better choice if we're going off a tier list placement.

[Interceptor]

This discussion is getting pretty unwieldy -- what with me arguing with three different people, one of whom flat-out ignores half of what I say -- so I am going to sum up the points and grievances in this new post. Narga already helpfully addressed a lot of the things that I was going to respond to anyway, but if one was still missed, someone can feel free to re-post it.

Point the first: Mist is not a porcelain doll once she promotes. She can take an occasional hit once she gets going, which is likely to happen because of her proximity with her ass-kicking support partners on the front lines, and also occasionally desirable since she's going to pull out the Sonic Sword and cream whatever just attacked her. In addition to that, a useful Mist up front with the SS is also available for the odd Player Phase kill, which doesn't even so much as slow her down, because of Canto. She is not a primary combatant, but she is useful as a back-up attacker. This is the main argument for her.

Grievance the first, Mist sandbag edition: It's important to use the proper perspective with Mist's training. If you complain about Mist's offense at 10/1, then I don't want to hear about how she's taking both Arms Scrolls or a bunch of BEXP, because clearly neither is happening in this scenario. The same goes for the reverse: if you train Mist properly and give her the Arms Scrolls, she's not spending any time at all with shitty combat, since she's not weighed down by the SS and is about as fast as Soren. Let's not cherry-pick the disadvantages from both, and imply that it's what Mist faces all of the time.

Point the second, Arms Scrolls: what Mist needs to rock and roll with the Sonic Sword is not overly dragging down the rest of the army. Nobody in this thread has produced a use for the Arms Scrolls that is 1) making a significant overall impact, or 2) much better than what we'd get out of Mist anyway. It's all silly-sauce things like getting someone to a weapon rank a little faster than they would normally (like Nephenee. she's mono-lances for chrissakes, she's maxing her rank unless you mothballed her in a closet somewhere), enabling usage of some niche item like the Brave Bow (really?), or choking the convoy with more gold that you're never going to use.

Grievance the second, game mechanics and needy child edition: Someone else "wants" the Sonic Sword for something? Trade the goddamn thing away, use it, and then trade it back. Jesus Christ. It's not like Mist won't have anything to do in the meantime, seeing as how she's still the most useful staff user on the team. And yes, her combat with physical weapons is balls compared to even someone like Oscar, but she can still pick up a leftover forge and whack some d-bag for serious damage. It's not like you'll never have a use for a Cantoing unit that can 2RKO (aka weaken or finish off) something.

Point the third, BEXP: The BEXP that Mist needs is significant (probably around ~1000 for an early promo, or steadily less for as one grows closer to Ch. 18), but BEXP is plentiful to begin with. There's enough for your mega-Jill, Marcia, maintenance for Oscar/Boyd/Kieran, etc, so the folks that Mist tends to bump out (aka, the cost of giving her the BEXP) fall to weaker characters like Soren, Ilyana, Brom, Gatrie, Zihark, Nephenee, etc. I am not arguing that BEXP for Mist is free, nor that her combat is amazing. HOWEVER: you are likely to be using Mist anyway because of her mobility and supports, and have it within your power to make her more useful. This is worth something in any comparison.

I can't find that playthrough myself, but I know how much BEXP is floating around. I know because you bring it up every five minutes to justify giving outlandish volumes of BEXP to people.

It's posted in this topic. Start here.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Interceptor

[Colonel M]

Being a person who was against Mist in all ways, a healer on a horse is much better than Soren playing Healbot anyhow.

While the Sonic Sword has some debatable points of use, you have other resources that the Sword user can use to knock these out. Steel Sword forge should be enough to do so. There's also the Vague Katti, for what it's worth. Silver Sword might net it too. I'm not saying the Sonic Sword being used on an occasional Wyvern isn't a bad idea either (unlike durrhurr bblade who thought it was a shitty idea), but chances are it's not something to bust your balls about either.

The anti-Arms Scroll debacle is pretty pointless though. When you honestly think about it, there is near zero competition for these items anyhow, and being broke in this game seems hard to do. This isn't like giving her a Speedwing or Claude a Running Pimento, which causes more extreme debates. The Arms Scroll is like paying pocket change for a sample; it's not a big deal.

I won't discuss anything else since I'm not a person who likes defending healers in general (and see Rhys / Mist near-equal in RD), but I will saysome of the anti arguments against her, especially the anti-Arms Scroll aren't exactly the best.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Colonel M

[Snowy_One]

Forgive my stupidity but... If the point of Mist being so high is because of her ability to function as a mounted healer whom can potentially take the SS, why don't we just raise up Tormod instead? They would have similar move, the extra staff-ranks to use a physic aren't needed since the goal is to have a healer who won't need them, and Tormod can take a forged thunder and a siege tome or a wind tome (or whatever weapon of his choice). Sure, he may need more Bexp, and I don't know what the stat-difference is between them, but Tormod isn't restricted to the SS and can take other weapons if/when his break, not to mention a forge being vastly easier to replace than the SS/Hammerine (forges are good, but they can be hammerined as well and should get far more uses than Mist will). The only thing Mist has on him that I can think of is move-again. However, that can be duplicated by the knight ring.

So... Are we putting the healer in Mist's slot in combat? If so, I would think Tormod would be a better choice. Are we trying to keep them from combat? Then moving again doesn't have a purpose and Tormod's needing the KR is moot (because it isn't needed), except he can enter combat if need be. Are we willing to deal with physic staves? If so, Rhys is indefinatly superior. So... Why can't we use Tormod in Mists place if the point of using Mist is the SS?

[Anouleth]

Mist still has supports over Tormod, as well as staff rank, availability, durability, and Canto (Knight Ring has Reyson's name carved in inch-deep letters on it). Although I guess Tormod's combat is better.

In any case, Mist still has advantages over Tormod and I don't have any problem with her being a tier higher than him.

[-Cynthia-]

I think Arms Scrolls on mages are a decent argument, since the various siege tomes are useful (you can 1 turn some Defeat Boss chapters with them), and Thoron/Rexbolt are good for dragons. And if you don't want to waste a forge use, you may want them for Bolganone to use on laguz (the mages probably use thunder tomes primarily, so fire rank won't be that high).

I guess the issue then would be whether Tormod's need for BEXP+ missing chapters vs. 2 Mov make him better than Soren or Ilyana. Part of the argument against Tormod I think is that Sealing him has the opportunity cost of not using the Seal for 5 chapters or so. You could BEXP him to 20/1, but considering his starting level that is very expensive.

Knight Ring usually goes to Reyson, since he tends to get the most utility out of it.

[Shadow Mir]

I think Arms Scrolls on mages are a decent argument, since the various siege tomes are useful (you can 1 turn some Defeat Boss chapters with them), and Thoron/Rexbolt are good for dragons. And if you don't want to waste a forge use, you may want them for Bolganone to use on laguz (the mages probably use thunder tomes primarily, so fire rank won't be that high).

I guess the issue then would be whether Tormod's need for BEXP+ missing chapters vs. 2 Mov make him better than Soren or Ilyana. Part of the argument against Tormod I think is that Sealing him has the opportunity cost of not using the Seal for 5 chapters or so. You could BEXP him to 20/1, but considering his starting level that is very expensive.

Knight Ring usually goes to Reyson, since he tends to get the most utility out of it.

Regarding Defeat Boss chapters and siege tomes, the only one that could possibly be one turned that way is chapter 22.

[-Cynthia-]

True. They still have uses in other chapters though, you can kill the boss and ferry Ike up there, etc. etc. And with most mages having low Mov, being able to hit things from far away is quite useful.

[Snowy_One]

Mist still has supports over Tormod,

IIRC, Mist's prime supports are Boyd and Mordi. Boyd I have no problem with, but Mordi is slow and will need the band to be fielded. Tormod's primes, IIRC, are Calill and Reyson. While it's true Calill is iffy, Reyson is not. Plus Tormod is with another mage who should be performing a similar role, and Reyson. Mist needs to be with two front-liners. This isn't a bad thing if her role is combat, but if she's being used as a healer and her canto to move away from the front lines after healing, I would think her supports pointless.

as well as staff rank,

I thought the whole point of using Mist in the first place was so that we could get away with using staves like heal and Mend, both of which have low ranks.

availability,

Sure. However, the focus of the current argument is the SS (from a glance). The SS won't come until well after Tormod has come along. So avalibility is kind of moot.

durability,

Only on paper (even then, I'm taking your word for it). In practice, it needs to be decided just what the heck Mist is actually doing. If she's constantly attacking with the SS, then once that sword vanishes, Mist's 'durability' is going to come from her hiding away once it breaks. If she's functioning as a healer, then Tormod still has the advantage unless we're going to sacrifice the SS to never be used since he can equip a tome and the enemy should ignore him as a result unless there is no other target and/or no target that can't counter in their range.

and Canto (Knight Ring has Reyson's name carved in inch-deep letters on it).

I don't see why it does, especially since the best use I can see for it would be giving it to a front-liner. I'll grant that any use I can see for it puts Tormod not at the top, but I also can't see any reason for it that is so game-changing as to be a guarantee. Sides, if having a healer who can canto is so important as to make Mist > Rhys, then I would think giving it to Tormod if he chose to be a healer would be a very worthy cause.

Although I guess Tormod's combat is better.

He doesn't even have to fight to beat her. He just needs a buyable tome to ward off enemies. Even if Mist beat him when both were equipped (don't know if she does or doesn't) her SS will run out eventually. When that happens, Tormod's easily renewable offense (via, buying a new tome and/or taking one from the convoy) would best her combat superiority unless we were to space Mist's combat usage so thin over the chapters as to make the fact that Tormod can attack with impunity (so long as no heals were needed) a huge plus. Either way, I don't see the point of Mist using the SS when Tormod offers better. The only thing she really has on him is availability.

[Anouleth]

Mist still has supports over Tormod,

IIRC, Mist's prime supports are Boyd and Mordi. Boyd I have no problem with, but Mordi is slow and will need the band to be fielded. Tormod's primes, IIRC, are Calill and Reyson. While it's true Calill is iffy, Reyson is not. Plus Tormod is with another mage who should be performing a similar role, and Reyson. Mist needs to be with two front-liners. This isn't a bad thing if her role is combat, but if she's being used as a healer and her canto to move away from the front lines after healing, I would think her supports pointless.

Mist has supports with Boyd, Mordecai, Titania, and Jill. All of them are good characters and viable options, and all of them are interested in her support. Titania, Boyd, and Jill want the durability, Titania, Mordecai and Jill want the attack. Water is a great affinity when your support list is as good as Mist's.

Whereas Tormod supports Devdan, Calill, and Reyson. Devdan and Calill are not guaranteed supports, and Reyson doesn't care at all about extra attack and hit. In addition, he doesn't share movement with Calill. If he wants to take advantage of their support, he needs to slow down, ruining his main advantage. Some of Mist's supporters have Canto, and they all have similiar movement to Mist. It's not hard to keep her out of danger and in the range of her supports at the same time, as you imply.

as well as staff rank,

I thought the whole point of using Mist in the first place was so that we could get away with using staves like heal and Mend, both of which have low ranks.

I know. But there are other advantages to staff rank. Physic still has occasional uses. Restore is vital for Chapter 21. Rescue is very helpful to help slower characters move forward faster.

availability,

Sure. However, the focus of the current argument is the SS (from a glance). The SS won't come until well after Tormod has come along. So avalibility is kind of moot.

No, the focus of the current argument is Tormod vs Mist. You should know, since you started it.

durability,

Only on paper (even then, I'm taking your word for it). In practice, it needs to be decided just what the heck Mist is actually doing. If she's constantly attacking with the SS, then once that sword vanishes, Mist's 'durability' is going to come from her hiding away once it breaks. If she's functioning as a healer, then Tormod still has the advantage unless we're going to sacrifice the SS to never be used since he can equip a tome and the enemy should ignore him as a result unless there is no other target and/or no target that can't counter in their range.

Her durability admittedly isn't a great advantage, since she shouldn't be fighting.

And I don't understand why Tormod wins. If she's functioning as a healer, she's not getting attacked. If Tormod can sit there with a tome and not get attacked, then Mist can do the same with the Sonic Sword or even just a Steel Sword.

and Canto (Knight Ring has Reyson's name carved in inch-deep letters on it).

I don't see why it does, especially since the best use I can see for it would be giving it to a front-liner. I'll grant that any use I can see for it puts Tormod not at the top, but I also can't see any reason for it that is so game-changing as to be a guarantee. Sides, if having a healer who can canto is so important as to make Mist > Rhys, then I would think giving it to Tormod if he chose to be a healer would be a very worthy cause.

You also don't see why Titania is at the top of the list and why Reyson is good. I imagine there are a lot of things you don't see.

And Mist has other things that put her over Rhys. Canto is the tip of the iceberg. +2 movement, better durability, and kickass supports whereas Rhys just has stupid Mia.

Although I guess Tormod's combat is better.

He doesn't even have to fight to beat her. He just needs a buyable tome to ward off enemies. Even if Mist beat him when both were equipped (don't know if she does or doesn't) her SS will run out eventually. When that happens, Tormod's easily renewable offense (via, buying a new tome and/or taking one from the convoy) would best her combat superiority unless we were to space Mist's combat usage so thin over the chapters as to make the fact that Tormod can attack with impunity (so long as no heals were needed) a huge plus. Either way, I don't see the point of Mist using the SS when Tormod offers better. The only thing she really has on him is availability.

No, Tormod HAS to fight to beat Mist. There is no point in him being able to buy weapons if he's not fighting.

[Snowy_One]

Mist has supports with Boyd, Mordecai, Titania, and Jill. All of them are good characters and viable options, and all of them are interested in her support. Titania, Boyd, and Jill want the durability, Titania, Mordecai and Jill want the attack. Water is a great affinity when your support list is as good as Mist's.

Whereas Tormod supports Devdan, Calill, and Reyson. Devdan and Calill are not guaranteed supports, and Reyson doesn't care at all about extra attack and hit. In addition, he doesn't share movement with Calill. If he wants to take advantage of their support, he needs to slow down, ruining his main advantage. Some of Mist's supporters have Canto, and they all have similiar movement to Mist. It's not hard to keep her out of danger and in the range of her supports at the same time, as you imply.

If we're going to talk about sharing movement ranges, Mist's only support is Boyd. It's true Mist can move a lot of spaces, but she shouldn't be. Rather, Titania and Jill will be moving far to keep up on the front lines (Jill potentially crossing impassible terrain) and Mist keeping up with them also means she will be exposed to the front line. Mordi is the same, but less-so since he is slow enough to MAYBE be left back a bit for the enemy phase counters. Boyd is the only one I can see Mist maintaining movement-wise.

Meanwhile, Calill and Tormod share roles as sages and both will be behind the front lines most likely. True that Tormod may be forced out of range, but it's easier to mend than Mist rushing up to the front lines. Reyson doesn't care for attack, but that doesn't mean he does not want the support. He only has Ike, Tormod, and Tanith. Ike will almost certainly be taken by the time Reyson comes (even LETHE is better then him as a support choice. 1 attack is just not worth extra turns and movement disagreement.) and Tanith would prefer Oscar and Marcia, so I don't see why Tormod can't net at least a B Reyson, if not a A.

I know. But there are other advantages to staff rank. Physic still has occasional uses. Restore is vital for Chapter 21. Rescue is very helpful to help slower characters move forward faster.

By chapter 21, if you are intending to grant the comparison any valid grounding, I would assume Tormod would be C already. It's not like Tormod is incapable of gaining weapon levels or something. IIRC, people commonly claim it possible to have Mist using a Mend by chapter 9. I won't disagree, but if Mist can use a mend by 9, Tormod can use a mend by 19 and almost certainly a C staff by the end of 21.

No, the focus of the current argument is Tormod vs Mist. You should know, since you started it.

I'm just responding to the recent spat about Mist and the SS. Anything Mist + SS can so Tormod can do better.

Her durability admittedly isn't a great advantage, since she shouldn't be fighting.

And I don't understand why Tormod wins. If she's functioning as a healer, she's not getting attacked.

Then Mist getting the SS is not happening (no way we're wasting those resources just to give the SS to Mist and have her NOT use it) and Tormod wins because his tomes allow him to be close to the front line (which is where Mist's supports are anyways. You know, the ones that are supposed to make her win in durability).

If Tormod can sit there with a tome and not get attacked, then Mist can do the same with the Sonic Sword or even just a Steel Sword.

And throw away resources and a valuable sword just so she can sit up there? A steel sword won't do it. She's too weak (enemy will gang her even with it) and it won't ward off 1-2 ranges. Advantage: Tormod.

You also don't see why Titania is at the top of the list

Because I don't see the point in worshiping the ground she walks on and considering the game over by chapter 14.

and why Reyson is good.

I don't see how he can be tiered accuratly. It doesn't matter. I am not discussing either character's tier positions. This is a personal attack and a pointless one.

And Mist has other things that put her over Rhys. Canto is the tip of the iceberg. +2 movement, better durability, and kickass supports whereas Rhys just has stupid Mia.

+2 movement is pointless when Rhys beats her in overall range consistently via physic. This is with Mist moving to the maximum range FYI (no canto). Durability doesn't matter when you can heal without ever approaching the front lines, and supports don't matter when you won't even be in range for them. Rhys supporting Mia is no more bothersome then Mist supporting Boyd.

No, Tormod HAS to fight to beat Mist. There is no point in him being able to buy weapons if he's not fighting.

I stick him with his whimpy fire and/or a tome just strong enough to potentially kill, the enemies avoid him at least a little bit, Tormod can stay close to/on the front lines for longer as a result, Tormod wins as a healer. Only way Mist can duplicate is if she picks up the SS. However, Tormod's magic ranks are free, Forged thunder is the best non-A magic weapon and requires no unique rank (well, you have to be able to use thunder, but that aside). Meanwhile, SS at best requires two arms scrolls for Mist to use. FT can be replaced or Tormod can simply use a normal tome. If the SS breaks, bye bye Mist since enemies will attack her rabidly. This isn't to mention FT has 40 uses to Mist's 25.

Tormod doesn't have to fight. He just has to make the enemy not want to attack Mist to beat her as a healer. Mist gets her durability from supports. However, these are max-move canto-types for two of her best and Mordi is meh and Boyd offers a boost she doesn't need. Tormod may suck for a supporter, but at least he's THERE to support someone. While I do believe Mist > Tormod, the reason why Mist > Tormod is because of Mist's availability. If we're going to claim Mist should ever move anywhere based on the SS, then by applying the same standard to Tormod, Tormod suddenly goes from 'bleh' to 'awesome'.

[Soren37]

The whole point of giving Mist Titania and Jill supports is because she can keep up with them. If we're using Mist x Boyd, then Mist is always being held up because Boyd can only move so far.

Also, I sense a tiny bit of hypocrisy. You're saying that Mist is too fragile to be too close to the frontlines, so we pair her with Boyd and keep her back. Yet when it comes to Tormod, it's perfectly fine that he'll be flying around the map out of range of his support partners.

The only thing Reyson wants out of a support is +DEF or +Avo. Reyson doesn't need attack or hit, even though Tormod might, it now means that we have Reyson flying fairly close to the front-lines along with Tormod to make sure Tormod gets his bonuses. Or we have Reyson 3 squares back, but even then, issues can still arise (hole in your wall, ballista, etc.)

While it's true that Tormod can take out physicals easily enough with his tomes, there's one group of enemy that Mist will always kill with ease; mages. Her high RES and swords > targeting RES, which mages tend have a bunch of.

Against other generics, Mist can really only go for the frail unarmoured ones, unless she uses SS, which means she's now destroying stuff with ease, as she'll have more MAG than Tormod, and if you get her sword rank even higher, she can use the Runesword and have tons of fun.

Titania is a necessary character for HM, as she can take a hit and ORKO everyone. Reyson is necessary because of his ability to allow 4 of your units to move again in as little as 5 turns.

At 20/18 for Rhys, Mist, and Tormod, Mist has the best Physic range with full move of 8 and a MAG stat of 26. Rhys and Tormod are tied for range, while Rhys heals the most. Mist comes in second for healing, and Tormod in third. Soren can even heal and have as much range as Rhys.

Mist needs 90 WEXP to be able to use the SS. If she's using a Steel Sword, it requires 45 attacks.

And now we hit the Doritos argument. The SS best belongs to a sword user with a high MAG stat to deal the most effective damage. First place with the highest MAG out of all the Sword users is Mist with 26, then Elincia with 25, and Lucia with 14. Mist also has the time to gain the ranks for the SS, while Elincia has Amiti, which means that she's set, and no one uses Lucia.

[Snowy_One]

The whole point of giving Mist Titania and Jill supports is because she can keep up with them.

Only in hard number, not practicallity in which have a unarmed healer near the front lines of a calvary/flier bumrush is a aweful idea. Especially if we're focusing on minimum turn count. Every enemy attacking Mist because she is unprotected/a easy target is one enemy not attacking Titania and Jill and one more that needs to be cleaned up (remember, even if we give her the SS, it can last only so long if it's being activally used).

If we're using Mist x Boyd, then Mist is always being held up because Boyd can only move so far.

More of 'because moving her any farther up is stupid'.

Also, I sense a tiny bit of hypocrisy. You're saying that Mist is too fragile to be too close to the frontlines, so we pair her with Boyd and keep her back. Yet when it comes to Tormod, it's perfectly fine that he'll be flying around the map out of range of his support partners.

Sorry, no. Firstly, I'm not saying they should be on the front lines. I'm of the opinion neither should ever be (hence, why I support Mist supporting Boyd and maybe Mordi, depending on if he's fast enough or not). Secondly, what I AM saying about the front lines is that Tormod is better because he will always have a deterrent to being attacked (always have a tome), Mist only has until her SS dies and then she is mauled.

The only thing Reyson wants out of a support is +DEF or +Avo.

Reyson only has three supports. Marcia, Ike, and Tormod. Marcia and Tormod are both fire and the only support that Ike wants less then a Reyson support is a Elincia support (late and sucky). So there's no harm at all in Tormod taking at least a B Reyson support.

it now means that we have Reyson flying fairly close to the front-lines along with Tormod to make sure Tormod gets his bonuses. Or we have Reyson 3 squares back, but even then, issues can still arise (hole in your wall, ballista, etc.)

1) These are problems with Reyson, not Tormod.

2) They don't even really matter because Tormod is capable of providing offense similar to what Mist is capable of putting out (monkeying the 20/20 stats) and even if he wasn't, so long as he can equip a tome, his deterrence is superior to Mist's. Even better if he can kill with it. In so far as deterrence goes, Mist has already lost to Tormod since her one method of deterrence requires special training and can be easily exhausted unless a very useful item is used on her.

While it's true that Tormod can take out physicals easily enough with his tomes, there's one group of enemy that Mist will always kill with ease; mages. Her high RES and swords > targeting RES, which mages tend have a bunch of.

Tormod has a high enough RES to basically ignore their damage as well, they won't be attacking on the enemy phase unless forced, mages are largely considered laughable anyways, you have a army of people capable of physically dispatching, and Mist using a sword means no SS on the enemy phase which leaves her exposed. This isn't to mention that killing a armor or wyvern is a better use for either of them than Mist chip-killing a mage (can she even do this without supports/forge?)

Against other generics, Mist can really only go for the frail unarmoured ones, unless she uses SS, which means she's now destroying stuff with ease, as she'll have more MAG than Tormod, and if you get her sword rank even higher, she can use the Runesword and have tons of fun.

The RS doesn't come until late in the game and requires a lot of work to get. Even if Mist were to Hammerine her SS once then break it, she would be at B rank still (49 Wexp from doing that, 60 to go from B to A). Mist using the SS is just not happening. This isn't to mention that it's difficult to get Mist those sword ranks anyways and requires either babying and/or the scrolls just for her to kill 12 enemies (SKL is too low to make a critical considerable). Every sword user would like the SS and RS, and the only thing that makes Mist stand out is that she can deal large amounts of damage with them. Other units can as well though, and the healing from the RS is great on anyone who can use it.

Titania is a necessary character for HM, as she can take a hit and ORKO everyone. Reyson is necessary because of his ability to allow 4 of your units to move again in as little as 5 turns.

And Ike is necessary for any-mode. Titania isn't needed for HM anyways. I did a Mia solo perfectly fine and didn't give her any stat-items (bit of trouble on 8, but otherwise, laughable) until WAY after Titania would have stopped being useful. To date, I think the only solo that hasn't/can't be done is a true Rhys/Mist solo (a Rolf solo would be devilishly hard though).

At 20/18 for Rhys, Mist, and Tormod, Mist has the best Physic range with full move of 8 and a MAG stat of 26. Rhys and Tormod are tied for range, while Rhys heals the most. Mist comes in second for healing, and Tormod in third. Soren can even heal and have as much range as Rhys.

For most of the game, Rhys > Mist though at healing (before he caps MAG) range. The 'point' to using Mist though is that she won't need to replace physic staves so often and can use heal/mend. Tormod will more or less match her move though, so, in theory, he too could provide a heal or mend.

Mist needs 90 WEXP to be able to use the SS. If she's using a Steel Sword, it requires 45 attacks.

Even at her 20/20 stats with full attack-boosting supports (bye bye Jill and Titania), Mist has only 21 STR before weapons. People try to execute Mia for having that much base and +4 attack to top it off, not to mention a higher weapon rank on average than Mist should ever have. Mist's 20/1 STR is equal to Mia's level 11 STR. There is no way to practically raise Mist's weapon level without calling it 'babying'.

And now we hit the Doritos argument. The SS best belongs to a sword user with a high MAG stat to deal the most effective damage. First place with the highest MAG out of all the Sword users is Mist with 26, then Elincia with 25, and Lucia with 14. Mist also has the time to gain the ranks for the SS, while Elincia has Amiti, which means that she's set, and no one uses Lucia.

Actually... No. Mist takes a lot of work and resources to get up and running as a SS user. The SS will mainly be used for sniping wyverns, which anyone can do. Of all possible sword users, Mia using a mage band and Tanith are the overall best. All Mia needs that is 'extra-ordinary' is the band (whole argument there) to net 14 MAG, and she can score a near-100 critical rate and have vantage as well. Tanith boasts a high base-MAG, early joining, and nothing needed at all to make her capable of using it. Meanwhile Elincia and Lucia don't come until the SS is long gone anyways (and Elincia is much easier to get using the RS. 2 WEXP per hit, auto-brave, unbreakable sword FTW! If we could ignore her late joining, Elincia would outright trounce Mist at almost everything).

Edited July 19, 2010 by Snowy_One

[Life]

Only in hard number, not practicallity in which have a unarmed healer near the front lines of a calvary/flier bumrush is a aweful idea. Especially if we're focusing on minimum turn count. Every enemy attacking Mist because she is unprotected/a easy target is one enemy not attacking Titania and Jill and one more that needs to be cleaned up (remember, even if we give her the SS, it can last only so long if it's being activally used).

Hello wall of 3 people to sit in FRONT of Mist? Please stop using the whole "player is stupid" argument, Snowy. Just because enemies like to go for Unit X over Unit Y doesn't mean we're going to LET them go after Unit X instead of Unit Y.

Besides, a support activates from 3 spaces away. Pretty sure that Mist can sit a little behind Titania and Jill for the supports to activate without being attacked.

More of 'because moving her any farther up is stupid'.

No comment here since ruling out a MistxBoyd support doesn't make sense to me when Physic Staves exist.

And Ike is necessary for any-mode. Titania isn't needed for HM anyways. I did a Mia solo perfectly fine and didn't give her any stat-items (bit of trouble on 8, but otherwise, laughable) until WAY after Titania would have stopped being useful. To date, I think the only solo that hasn't/can't be done is a true Rhys/Mist solo (a Rolf solo would be devilishly hard though).

Read necessary as needed for efficiency. Are you actually trying to equate an efficiency run with a solo run?

For most of the game, Rhys > Mist though at healing (before he caps MAG) range. The 'point' to using Mist though is that she won't need to replace physic staves so often and can use heal/mend. Tormod will more or less match her move though, so, in theory, he too could provide a heal or mend.

Level 16/1 Rhys has ~20 Mag and 6 Move. Level 10/1 Mist has ~13 Mag and 8 Move. So while Rhys has about 4 extra range on Mist, he also falls behind rather quickly, meaning that the extra range means squat-diddly-doo by Turn 3. So I really doubt that Rhys is better at Mist at healing when she can actually heal people while he's out of range a couple of turns into a chapter.

I really don't care about the Sonic Sword argument. I'd rather correct the fundamental problems with Snowy's argument. Carry on.

[Shadow Mir]

Actually... No. Mist takes a lot of work and resources to get up and running as a SS user. The SS will mainly be used for sniping wyverns, which anyone can do. Of all possible sword users, Mia using a mage band and Tanith are the overall best. All Mia needs that is 'extra-ordinary' is the band (whole argument there) to net 14 MAG, and she can score a near-100 critical rate and have vantage as well. Tanith boasts a high base-MAG, early joining, and nothing needed at all to make her capable of using it. Meanwhile Elincia and Lucia don't come until the SS is long gone anyways (and Elincia is much easier to get using the RS. 2 WEXP per hit, auto-brave, unbreakable sword FTW! If we could ignore her late joining, Elincia would outright trounce Mist at almost everything).

Most of this argument is bullshit. Especially the part about "Elincia would outright trounce Mist at almost everything". Mist CURBSTOMPS Elincia in the support arena (Elincia can only get Geoffrey sice Ike's full up by the time she joins). Also, Elincia starts with a D in swords 3 chapters before the end of the game. How the hell is she getting the rank to wield the Runesword without Arms Scrolls??? Especially considering that Elincia is awful at combat. Oh, and consecutive attacks from brave weapons don't give double normal WEXP (or in the case of quadruple attacks, 4 times the WEXP). In other words, no 8 WEXP per round of combat for Elincia.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Snowy_One]

Hello wall of 3 people to sit in FRONT of Mist? Please stop using the whole "player is stupid" argument, Snowy. Just because enemies like to go for Unit X over Unit Y doesn't mean we're going to LET them go after Unit X instead of Unit Y.

Besides, a support activates from 3 spaces away. Pretty sure that Mist can sit a little behind Titania and Jill for the supports to activate without being attacked.

Ignoring that the enemies have movement values that can easily reach up to 9 movement and whatnot, more than enough to get around three people lined up in front of Mist, the whole point of Mist's 'superior durability' is so that we can let Mist up to the front line without having to worry about protecting her. Having three units line up in a wall so that she doesn't get attacked seems to be the exact opposite of the reason why people consider Mist superior in the first place. This isn't to mention that the point of this tier list is minimum turn completion times (unless I missed something). Having units form up to protect anyone is often difficult to do without compromising this goal.

Read necessary as needed for efficiency. Are you actually trying to equate an efficiency run with a solo run?

There is a huge difference between 'necessary' and 'needed for efficiency'.

Level 16/1 Rhys has ~20 Mag and 6 Move. Level 10/1 Mist has ~13 Mag and 8 Move. So while Rhys has about 4 extra range on Mist, he also falls behind rather quickly, meaning that the extra range means squat-diddly-doo by Turn 3. So I really doubt that Rhys is better at Mist at healing when she can actually heal people while he's out of range a couple of turns into a chapter.

This is assuming Mist moves to the maximum possible movement every turn. This means she is on the front line, and we will have to put up with her sucky offense and every enemy likely targeting her if possible.

Most of this argument is bullshit. Especially the part about "Elincia would outright trounce Mist at almost everything". Mist CURBSTOMPS Elincia in the support arena (Elincia can only get Geoffrey sice Ike's full up by the time she joins). Also, Elincia starts with a D in swords 3 chapters before the end of the game. How the hell is she getting the rank to wield the Runesword without Arms Scrolls??? Especially considering that Elincia is awful at combat. Oh, and consecutive attacks from brave weapons don't give double normal WEXP (or in the case of quadruple attacks, 4 times the WEXP). In other words, no 8 WEXP per round of combat for Elincia.

1) Mist isn't that epic in supports. She has Boyd, Rolf, Jill, Titania, and Mordi. Boyd doesn't really care for attack throughout most of the game and all his supports give defense as well. Sure, a Mist support may or may not finish faster than a Titania support, but they both give him 1 DEF, and that's all he really cares about. Jill wants Mist, sure, but Jill is also a flier. So unless Mist is going to become a front-line fighter, the support won't be horribly active. Mordi would love it and has a good enough move. If only he was a bit faster. Titania would want her, but she has other choices as well and Boyd and Rhys each give her 1 attack and defense. Mist gives two more defense, sure, but from supports alone, she's gonna end up with 20 defense. Sure. 22 is better, but not by a whole lot.

2) There is a huge difference between Elincia and Mist in terms of weapons. Namely, that Elincia doesn't suck so badly at leveling them up. They both are more or less identical in terms of melee power, except Elincia has Atimi. Atimi grants her 4/8 WEXP a round a well as 3 DEF/RES and is infinite use. She needs to only go through 19 rounds of combat to get it up there. Unless I am mixing up my chapters, there are 23 turned at maximum turn count before Bexp loss before the final chapter. Even without hitting the enemy phase (one of the points of using Mist with the SS) Elincia can do this easily assuming a double every round.

3) I won't deny that this involves babying/weapon scrolls to be feasible in-game, but this is MIST here. With the SS. Just a mention of her name and that item causes hardened debaters to doll up and turn a blind eye to any favoritism. For a while, back on gamefaqs, it was commonly believed (not just by smash) that the best thing to do was dump all the Bexp possible onto Mist as soon as she joined just so she could promote early and wouldn't be so difficult to train up in sword rank (seal was ignored due to lack of STR growth) JUST so she could use the SS (Hammerine wasn't even mentioned, so it was JUST for the 12 kills she could net with it at base).

[Florete]

Ignoring that the enemies have movement values that can easily reach up to 9 movement and whatnot, more than enough to get around three people lined up in front of Mist,

Because we're really leaving enemies right in front of our units all the time for enemy phase, right? Every map is wide open space without any walls to block enemies, right?

Having units form up to protect anyone is often difficult to do without compromising this goal.

Then, I'm sorry to say, but you suck at this game. For one thing, Jill and Titania both can Canto, making it easier to form a wall. For two, promoted Mist can also Canto, making it all the more easier to get her to a safe location. If you can't protect her without compromising efficiency then you're just a bad strategist.

1) Mist isn't that epic in supports. She has Boyd, Rolf, Jill, Titania, and Mordi. Boyd doesn't really care for attack throughout most of the game and all his supports give defense as well. Sure, a Mist support may or may not finish faster than a Titania support, but they both give him 1 DEF, and that's all he really cares about. Jill wants Mist, sure, but Jill is also a flier. So unless Mist is going to become a front-line fighter, the support won't be horribly active. Mordi would love it and has a good enough move. If only he was a bit faster. Titania would want her, but she has other choices as well and Boyd and Rhys each give her 1 attack and defense. Mist gives two more defense, sure, but from supports alone, she's gonna end up with 20 defense. Sure. 22 is better, but not by a whole lot.

This is a recycled GJ argument, aka "I'll mention every other inferior partner her support partners have and make it look like she does nothing." The best point about Mist's supports is the diversity. If she only had one or two of them, her supports would not be a big deal. The fact is that she is a good partner, often the best, for four of the game's best units and can keep up with all of them. This means that she can be helpful almost no matter how you have your supports set up as long as you don't set it up around not involving Mist.

2) There is a huge difference between Elincia and Mist in terms of weapons. Namely, that Elincia doesn't suck so badly at leveling them up. They both are more or less identical in terms of melee power, except Elincia has Atimi. Atimi grants her 4/8 WEXP a round a well as 3 DEF/RES and is infinite use. She needs to only go through 19 rounds of combat to get it up there. Unless I am mixing up my chapters, there are 23 turned at maximum turn count before Bexp loss before the final chapter. Even without hitting the enemy phase (one of the points of using Mist with the SS) Elincia can do this easily assuming a double every round.

Fuckin' hilarious (It's Amiti btw). So Elincia can use the SS/Runesword for the game's final map? Also forgetting to mention that her base durability is god awful for when she joins. Even if you pour some BEXP into her she'll still be getting 2-3HKOd without very good avoid when most of the rest of the time is practically invincible. And who says that just because we have 23 turns means we're taking it all? Because we want Elincia to get her Sword rank up?

[Narga_Rocks]

Fuckin' hilarious (It's Amiti btw). So Elincia can use the SS/Runesword for the game's final map? Also forgetting to mention that her base durability is god awful for when she joins. Even if you pour some BEXP into her she'll still be getting 2-3HKOd without very good avoid when most of the rest of the time is practically invincible. And who says that just because we have 23 turns means we're taking it all? Because we want Elincia to get her Sword rank up?

Um, just to make sure everyone understands this:

Snowy_One appears to have the idea that we should change the goals of the tier list to accommodate his playing style. He thinks Titania is too high when she is crucial to achieving the lowest turn counts possible. If she needs to drop then the goal of the tier list needs to change. And since there is no reason to make a tier list with a goal that only one person approves, that's clearly not happening.

Snowy: you can rez your tier list if you'd like to pretend we are taking the full number of turns for max bexp in each map.

[Shadow Mir]

1) Mist isn't that epic in supports. She has Boyd, Rolf, Jill, Titania, and Mordi. Boyd doesn't really care for attack throughout most of the game and all his supports give defense as well. Sure, a Mist support may or may not finish faster than a Titania support, but they both give him 1 DEF, and that's all he really cares about. Jill wants Mist, sure, but Jill is also a flier. So unless Mist is going to become a front-line fighter, the support won't be horribly active. Mordi would love it and has a good enough move. If only he was a bit faster. Titania would want her, but she has other choices as well and Boyd and Rhys each give her 1 attack and defense. Mist gives two more defense, sure, but from supports alone, she's gonna end up with 20 defense. Sure. 22 is better, but not by a whole lot.

Titania doesn't want Rhys, ever. Need I explain why?

2) There is a huge difference between Elincia and Mist in terms of weapons. Namely, that Elincia doesn't suck so badly at leveling them up. They both are more or less identical in terms of melee power, except Elincia has Atimi. Atimi grants her 4/8 WEXP a round a well as 3 DEF/RES and is infinite use. She needs to only go through 19 rounds of combat to get it up there. Unless I am mixing up my chapters, there are 23 turned at maximum turn count before Bexp loss before the final chapter. Even without hitting the enemy phase (one of the points of using Mist with the SS) Elincia can do this easily assuming a double every round.

Assuming Elincia doubles every round is unrealistic for obvious reasons. And even with Amiti, her durability is still awful. And she has only 15 AS at base, which doubles nothing but generals, bishops and sages, the former of which she doesn't even scratch.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Interceptor]

I think Arms Scrolls on mages are a decent argument, since the various siege tomes are useful (you can 1 turn some Defeat Boss chapters with them), and Thoron/Rexbolt are good for dragons. And if you don't want to waste a forge use, you may want them for Bolganone to use on laguz (the mages probably use thunder tomes primarily, so fire rank won't be that high).

Sure, as long as we re-define "decent" to refer to the shit that's stuck like a remora to the bottom of the Forgotten Barrel of Dubious Ideas<tm>.

We already have a solution to the siege tome non-problem: it's called "Calill". Not only does she come with your first and only Meteor tome, but she can also use all of Meteor/Blizzard/Bolting, at base level, with decent (except this case, it's ACTUALLY DECENT) MAG behind it. Let's not pretend for even a brief moment that it's more efficient to take Soren/Ilyana/Tormod from Noobshit Tenderfoot to the point where they can effectively use siege magic; Calill is free, and at worst loses MAG by a few points (which she can handily make up for with her stupid-easy full-ATK supports). We are not so desperate for deployment slots that we can't spare one for our pre-promoted siege engine.

Tormod is the only replacement unit with a legitimate advantage that Calill cannot overcome: Celerity. But looking at what it costs us for +2 effective range per turn, not to mention that Tormod has no hope of matching her breadth of skill, ever, this is a textbook Bad Deal for the purpose of acquiring a magic ballista. Any justification for training Tormod has to be inherent in what he can do with normal tomes and staves. Siege magic becomes something that happens either in the natural course of events, or if you find yourself in a situation where you have nothing else to do with the resources anyway.

I don't know what this "wasting a forge use" business is about, since we're able to forge magic tomes for almost the entire goddamn game, 5-6 chapters of which we don't even have access to anything better than Iron in the first place. How many mages are you expecting to use? All of them, plus Sanaki and Pelleas via time machine?

Pardon my incredulity, here, that any of this is worth blowing your best chance to most effectively apply the Sonic Sword. All of the Arms Scroll arguments in this thread have the aroma of a wad of hamburger left out in the sun for a week. There is no expert clincher here, like dropping a Scroll on 4-E-1 RD Micaiah, so that she can use Fortify in Endgame. Sonic Sword Mist is competing with stupid bullshit like "let's give Geoffrey to ability to use the Brave Bow in a game where 2-range people are pariahs" and "how about we give mono-lance Nephenee early access to a weapon she doesn't want" and "let's raise a Mage from infancy to use Meteor for 10x the cost of the unit who comes with it".

Seriously, what the Christ?

Edited July 19, 2010 by Interceptor

[Zkirsche]

Let's not pretend for even a brief moment that it's more efficient to take Soren/Ilyana/Tormod from Noobshit Tenderfoot to the point where they can effectively use siege magic

Tormod and Ilyana aside, it is not hard at all to raise Soren and him KO'ing a unit that was already weakened can save PP for vulneraries. Not to mention his hit is fabulous from the word go + possible adept chances makes it futher so. 1-2 range also makes him very flexible, too, for example, in my PT, Soren actually overtook Boyd in exp sheerly for the fact that he could actually attack behind a unit and hit the goddamn enemies, and for good, if not better, damage too.

So when it's easier to train/use Soren over a top tier unit like Boyd, I don't really think he's hard to train at all.

Regarding Defeat Boss chapters and siege tomes, the only one that could possibly be one turned that way is chapter 22.

Doesn't have to be one tuned by the mage by itself. Other bosses (Renning comes to mind) are pretty damn tough as well.

But looking at what it costs us for +2 effective range per turn

Reminds me of Mist vs Rhys.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Anouleth]

Tormod and Ilyana aside, it is not hard at all to raise Soren and him KO'ing a unit that was already weakened can save PP for vulneraries. Not to mention his hit is fabulous from the word go + possible adept chances makes it futher so. 1-2 range also makes him very flexible, too, for example, in my PT, Soren actually overtook Boyd in exp sheerly for the fact that he could actually attack behind a unit and hit the goddamn enemies, and for good, if not better, damage too.

If Soren overtakes Boyd in level, you are seriously doing it wrong. Boyd doesn't need much to be 1-rounding Soldiers and unlike Soren, he actually has an enemy phase. Observe my playthrough. Boyd isn't level 15 at the end of Chapter 8 because I've been feeding him kills at 2-range. It's because he has the durability to take on enemies during enemy phase and the offense to deal great damage. He doesn't need to cower behind Titania and Gatrie like Soren does. His only issue is earlygame speed, but the Speedwing has his name written all over it and depending on how he levels, he might not even need it.