FE9 Tier list v3

[aku chi]

I've tried shoving Makalov and Geoffrey with Lethe and she can not, so I can only assume it is incorrect.

I just tested it in game. Lethe gains 15 Con but 10 Wt from transformation. You are correct, Lethe cannot shove promoted male Paladins or Jill like Muarim (transformed) can.

Edit: Though if shoving promoted male Paladins is so important, Lethe can do it with a single Statue Frag (very low demand).

Gauge does hurt Lethe, though. Off the top of my head, Chapters 13, 16, 17-3, 18, 21, 23, and maybe 25 are all chapters long enough where she'll untransform before the end. In addition, the enemy density in 26 and 27 may force her to untransform as well.

13: When she untransforms, she can still help out by opening a chest or two with Chest Keys.

16: She has 5 turns of full strength combat and can then help grab the Full Guard or Dracoshield (Chest Key).

17-3: It's a self-improvement chapter, but yes: Lethe will miss out on half of the ten turns unless you let her use the Demi Band.

18: It's true, Lethe will need the Demi Band to fight the Ravens.

21: Neither of the beast laguz are likely to be ferried over the water, so it isn't too important that Lethe only has 5 turns at full strength. If she's being used to get a treasure or something, she can take the Demi Band if needed.

23: Can be beaten in 4 turns. Even if you take your time, Lethe is at full strength for the great majority of this chapter. And she can shove Ike or something to make herself useful.

25: Can be beaten in 4 turns. I suppose Lethe might run out of gauge if you aren't particularly swift here. But she probably wants to get out of the way during the last couple turns anyway, because she has no 1-2 range.

26 & 27: It's possible that she'll run out of gauge on the last turn (4 or 5), but that generally isn't relevant when all you need to do is kill the boss and seize/arrive. She can even shove or take/drop Ike, if needed.

Edited May 26, 2011 by aku chi

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, I'd rather sell the Frags to be honest... And while it's easy to find uses for Lethe when she untransforms, you have to admit that they are not helping us complete the chapter at all (except in Chapter 13), and she's little more than a liability.

[-Cynthia-]

While we're talking about laguz, could Mordecai be a little overrated? He has nice stats and all, but he doesn't transform until like...turn 4, and on an efficient runthrough that's well over half the turns on most chapters and often nearly entire chapters. There is Smite in his favor, but other than that he just doesn't seem to do much. I guess you could have him use Laguz Stones until he becomes obsolete, but I'd rather use them on Reyson.

Lethe>Muarim is making a lot of sense atm.

Edited May 26, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Radiant Dragon]

Well, Mordecai seems to be over Lethe solely because of Smite (can he Smite everyone untransformed?). While I believe that Mordecai is more useful than Lethe in lowest turn-count, max efficiency playthroughs, I believe that Lethe is more useful otherwise.

[Kinata]

So it turns her 21 wt into 33? That's a really weird number for them to pick, +12. Whatever.

Oh, you sure that isn't just what she has with a statue frag? Did you load your game to a point after you get the frag?

Well I haven't played this game since March last year, but I'm almost certain she has 33 wt transformed (and I always sell my frags). But apparently everyone else's tests suggest otherwise, so I guess you should go with theirs.

@Radiant

Untransformed Mordecai definitely has 33 wt. So pretty much yes except for other laguz and wyvern lords.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well I haven't played this game since March last year, but I'm almost certain she has 33 wt transformed (and I always sell my frags). But apparently everyone else's tests suggest otherwise, so I guess you should go with theirs.

What's her con and wt while untransformed? What's her con transformed?

It'd be weird if you had 21 con/33 wt while transformed and yet everyone else has 21/31.

[NTNP]

I had a question, if I may. What exactly makes Devdan, an overly average unit in every way (has difficulty doubling, has difficulty 1-2RKOing, has moderate survivability but an admittedly high con) over Sothe and Volke, let alone an entire tier over them? Combat wise they all seem arguably mediocre with Devdan winning by a slight margin due to lances but I would think the resources that either of the thieves could net you over the course of a game would out weigh what Devdan contributes in 13 chapters. Has there been any discussion on this matter that might explain their placement?

[Kaoz]

Consider a moment near Muarim's joining (perhaps 17-1):

Level 7 Lethe

39.2 HP, 14 + 6 Str, 12.6 + 4 Skl, 14.8 + 3 Spd, 17 Lck, 10.6 + 5 Def, 8 + 3 Res

Level 9 Muarim

45 HP, 16 + 4 Str, 13 + 2 Skl, 15 + 2 Spd, 11 Lck, 12 + 2 Def, 5 + 2 Res

I think assuming Lv 7 for Lethe at that time is a bit high, I used her quite a bit myself and only got her to Lv 4 at the end of Ch. 15.

That would put her at

35.3 HP, 12.5 Str, 4.05 Skl, 12.7 Spd, 15.5 Lck, 9.4 Def, 7.25 Res

That's not to say that I am opposed to them being in the same tier or something, just pointing out that your assumed level might be a bit high.

That being said, maybe we should start with considering Lethe/Mordecai > Nephenee?

[Anouleth]

I had a question, if I may. What exactly makes Devdan, an overly average unit in every way (has difficulty doubling, has difficulty 1-2RKOing, has moderate survivability but an admittedly high con) over Sothe and Volke, let alone an entire tier over them? Combat wise they all seem arguably mediocre with Devdan winning by a slight margin due to lances but I would think the resources that either of the thieves could net you over the course of a game would out weigh what Devdan contributes in 13 chapters. Has there been any discussion on this matter that might explain their placement?

'Mediocre' does not capture how utterly awful Sothe and Volke's combat is. Devdan at base with a silver forge has more ATK than they can ever dream of. Danved at base using no weapon at all has more attack than base Volke with a knife.

Sothe and Volke have such awful combat, it's really not worth discussing.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Anouleth

[aku chi]

'Mediocre' does not capture how utterly awful Sothe and Volke's combat is. Devdan at base with a silver forge has more ATK than they can ever dream of. Danved at base using no weapon at all has more attack than base Volke with a knife.

Sothe and Volke have such awful combat, it's really not worth discussing.

If it's not worth talking about Volke's combat, then it isn't worth talking about Janaff's combat, but I seem to recall a some praise, at least at the Lower-Mid level, over Janaffs always doubling and 3-4HKOing non-Generals at 1-range. Well, with a Stiletto, Volke can do that, plus 2-3HKO Generals, plus crit far more often. Let's take a look at some stats, shall we:

Level 20/7 Volke

37.4 HP, 22.8 Str, 24.8 Skl, 25.4 Spd, 12.6 Lck, 12.2 Def, 6.6 Res

Stiletto - 8 Mt (16 Mt vs. Knights/Generals), 95 Hit, 10 Crt

Level 15 Janaff

48.1 HP, 16.85 + 6 Str, 19.9 + 5 Skl, 21.55 + 3 Spd, 18.8 Lck, 13.1 + 4 Def, 11.75 + 2 Res

Beak - 7 Mt, 90 Hit, 0 Crt

I don't mean to talk up Volke's combat: it's really poor without Stilettos and not even very good with them. But if Janaff's combat deserves discussion, so does Volke's. And Sothe's combat is irredeemably bad.

Concerning Volke/Sothe, I think they should be > Devdan for the Boots alone, but throw in Chapter 13 and all of the valuable treasure they can help get and it seems obvious to me.

Edit:

I think assuming Lv 7 for Lethe at that time is a bit high, I used her quite a bit myself and only got her to Lv 4 at the end of Ch. 15.

You couldn't have used her much if she only gained one level in 6 chapters. I thought 4 levels in 7 chapters was fairly reasonable, if a tad optimistic considering that C15 is probably pacifist-cleared and C10 might be stealth-cleared.

That being said, maybe we should start with considering Lethe/Mordecai > Nephenee?

Or Nephenee > Muarim. I don't know which makes more sense off-hand, they seem like difficult comparisons. Lethe vs. Nephenee is probably the easiest comparison, because they have almost identical availability and Lethe has the least shove utility of the beast laguz. But Nephenee requires significantly more resources, grows better, and has 1-2 range but 7 mov. Mordecai is the biggest oddball of the bunch, because his placement is almost entirely due to smite utility, as opposed to combat.

Edited May 26, 2011 by aku chi

[Anouleth]

Most of the treasure that is acquired can easily be duplicated by Chest Keys. Chapter 13 is true, though...

Stilettos aren't accessible until Endgame. Until then, Volke is trailing Janaff quite badly, not to speak of the difficulty of training him. It's also worth noting that part of what puts Janaff where he is (which is still quite low) is flight. So Janaff has flight and superior combat and doesn't need to be fed kills. I don't think that it's that strange that Volke is in the same tier as him.

[Radiant Dragon]

Most of the treasure that is acquired can easily be duplicated by Chest Keys. Chapter 13 is true, though...

If the amount of chests that have stuff we want is greater than the amount of Chest Keys we have, we can't just ignore the Thieves' ability to get them without Keys.

Stilettos aren't accessible until Endgame.

There's one in a chest in Chapter 21, and Bastian joins with one.

[Anouleth]

If the amount of chests that have stuff we want is greater than the amount of Chest Keys we have, we can't just ignore the Thieves' ability to get them without Keys.

List of items in the game that are worth getting:

Chapter 13

Laguz Axe, Speedwing, Energy Drop

Chapter 16

Full Guard, Dracoshield

Chapter 18

Wrath

Chapter 21

Energy Drop

Chapter 27

Resolve, Laguz Axe

That's 9 items. There are 14 Chest Key uses, not counting the ones in Chapter 22 which we probably won't get, so we have room to spare to get everything we want with Chest Keys. The only problem is trying to open all the chests in Chapter 13, in which case you do need a thief.

[Zkirsche]

You probably won't get all the chest keys in chapter 0 either, especially if we're going stealth.

[Radiant Dragon]

List of items in the game that are worth getting:

Chapter 13

Laguz Axe, Speedwing, Energy Drop

Chapter 16

Full Guard, Dracoshield

Chapter 18

Wrath

Chapter 21

Energy Drop

Chapter 27

Resolve, Laguz Axe

That's 9 items. There are 14 Chest Key uses, not counting the ones in Chapter 22 which we probably won't get, so we have room to spare to get everything we want with Chest Keys. The only problem is trying to open all the chests in Chapter 13, in which case you do need a thief.

You forgot some:

10 - Short Axe

16 - Bolting, Physic

21 - Brave Sword

27 - Fortify, Spear, Physic

And this isn't including the Chapter 13 items, sellables like the Ashera Icon or Master Seal, or the Chapter 22 Spirit Dust or Tomahawk (which may or may not be gotten). And don't forget the desert items and stealable items such as Makoya's Laguzslayer or Physics from Bishops.

As for where the Thieves should go, I'd rather not get involved in that discussion. I hate tiering Thieves/Dancers/Healers.

[aku chi]

You forgot some:

16 - Bolting, Physic

While those are nice items, they're too far out of the way to be reasonably obtained in an efficient clear.

[Radiant Dragon]

While those are nice items, they're too far out of the way to be reasonably obtained in an efficient clear.

Is this maximum efficiency yet? If not, I don't see the problem with obtaining these items.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

The problem with not max efficiency is it's too vaguely defined and has a tendency to end up as the speed which benefits the characters [debater] likes.

[Shadow Mir]

Is this maximum efficiency yet? If not, I don't see the problem with obtaining these items.

Ehh, I'd say the problem is that they'd be outclassed by the Dracoshield and Full Guard in terms of priority, and you're highly unlikely to get to the Physic and Bolting before the thief does, since he pops up on turn 6.

[Radiant Dragon]

The problem with not max efficiency is it's too vaguely defined and has a tendency to end up as the speed which benefits the characters [debater] likes.

That may be true, but the problem with max efficiency is that we'd have a 'not recruited tier' with: Kieran, Brom, Nephenee, Jill, Makalov, Devdan, Haar and Nasir. And Shinon would be tiered solely on his early game contributions.

Ehh, I'd say the problem is that they'd be outclassed by the Dracoshield and Full Guard in terms of priority, and you're highly unlikely to get to the Physic and Bolting before the thief does, since he pops up on turn 6.

It's very possible to have the western room open by turn 6.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Shadow Mir]

It's very possible to have the western room open by turn 6.

Could you please enlighten me on this? Because the only feasible way I see involes a Paladin charging full bore for the treasure room.

[Anouleth]

Is this maximum efficiency yet? If not, I don't see the problem with obtaining these items.

If it's not maximum efficiency, do we need those items in the first place? Of course not - the value of those items is in the turns that they save, and if that is less than the number of turns needed to get them, then they have no value. You don't even need to play maximum efficiency in order for this to occur. No matter if you use 9 move or 7 move units, you will reach the Throne before you reach the chests.

It's very possible to have the western room open by turn 6.

You can also Seize on turn 6.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Anouleth

[Florete]

Could you please enlighten me on this? Because the only feasible way I see involes a Paladin charging full bore for the treasure room.

Exactly that, which is what I did here:

16: 6/94

This took some precision to pull off while getting the Bolting, which will be useful later (at least it was supposed to be), and the Dracoshield. Titania charged for that chest, and everyone else charged Ike to the seize square, which required a total of 4 Shoves and Ike using his full movement every turn. Mist promoted in the base.

Except I only had Ike, Titania, Mist, Mordecai, Ilyana, Mia, Stefan, and Brom at the time to do it. If that team can pull it off, surely a team with multiple Paladins/fliers and the Boots on one of them (since I saved Boots for Reyson) can pull it off.

EDIT: I also Seized in that time.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Shadow Mir]

Exactly that, which is what I did here:

16: 6/94

This took some precision to pull off while getting the Bolting, which will be useful later (at least it was supposed to be), and the Dracoshield. Titania charged for that chest, and everyone else charged Ike to the seize square, which required a total of 4 Shoves and Ike using his full movement every turn. Mist promoted in the base.

Except I only had Ike, Titania, Mist, Mordecai, Ilyana, Mia, Stefan, and Brom at the time to do it. If that team can pull it off, surely a team with multiple Paladins/fliers and the Boots on one of them (since I saved Boots for Reyson) can pull it off.

EDIT: I also Seized in that time.

Figures... Though as I said earlier, I consider them to be too far out of the way to be worth it, and the Dracoshield and Full Guard are higher priority.

[Florete]

Figures... Though as I said earlier, I consider them to be too far out of the way to be worth it, and the Dracoshield and Full Guard are higher priority.

With a better team it may still be possible. See my run on the Tellius draft:

16: 5/88

Map: Yay Muarim! Let's go.

Base: Start by having Marcia Rescue Ike. She'll drop him on turn 3, two turns away from Seizing. Titania moves as fast as she can so can Hammer the boss for the OHKO on turn 5. After dropping Ike, Marcia goes with Muarim to open Chests. Brom didn't do much of anything.

My team: Ike, Titania, Marcia, Brom, Muarim (Marcia w/Boots and promoted). Notice how Brom did nothing. Yes, that is all, and I did it in 5 turns with the Dracoshield and Full Guard. With 6 turns and more units (Paladins, Mordecai, etc.) it should be very possible to both recruit Devdan and get the Chests up there.