Red Fox of Fire's character review topic (Complete)

[dondon151]

Micaiah shouldn't be getting bosskills in 1-3 or 1-7 anyway because it takes an extra turn for her to seize.

[Anouleth]

1. 3 spaces is not that difficult to do, especially in the smaller maps.

2. + the highest HP.

3 spaces, and also ignoring terrain, which is pretty common, and also having way higher durability, so there will be places that he can go that she can't.

Yeah, forgot that physical foot units are 6 move. Oops. Still, I don't find her mobility to be such an issue for most of part 1.

I do.

Zaitan: Needs +2 Mag to kill in one hit.

Burton: Same.

Pain & Agony: Does more damage than anyone that isn't Sothe, easily, who can't be in two places at once.

Wystan: Doesn't really matter anyway.

Laverton: Needs 13 Mag, level 8-9, which is easy, to kill in one hit.

Djur: Needs him to be weakened, but the only one who can do really good damage anyway is Muarim, whom you both don't want getting the boss kill and might not even be transformed.

Radmin: I honestly thought she was better against this guy.

Jarod: I thought I'd mentioned that he was the one she couldn't really handle, but I guess I missed it.

I conceded Zaitan and Burton. But Sothe can easily go north and take out Pain and Agony in 1-4. She can't touch Laverton. He moves, there is no way she can get near him, especially with all the enemies nearby. If you want to lure him down, then there are many people who would be better off with the kill exp. Why don't I want Muarim taking the boss kill? It's not like it's Micaiah that needs to seize. And it's not like I'm wasting EXP, since Micaiah is eventually going to just be healbotting anyway. And Jill or Nolan with a Hammer can also deal good damage.

How is Micaiah going to be good against Radmin, anyway? Even at max level, she only 2HKOes. Compared to Sothe, who 1-rounds at base and has three times as much movement through thickets, it's a hilarious comparison. Or even Tormod.

Maybe I oversimplified in my review, but she's still very helpful against a good number of them, especially if you don't want someone like Sothe taking all of them.

Why wouldn't I want Sothe taking all of them? Sothe is great. And he will actually make use of that exp in Part 3.

That alone doesn't, but her abilities over the course of the game warrant 7.5-8.5 in my book.

Fair enough.

[Florete]

3 spaces, and also ignoring terrain, which is pretty common, and also having way higher durability, so there will be places that he can go that she can't.

Thing is, maps aren't always too big this early, and even though Sothe is awesome he doesn't always want to be running away on his own. He wants her support as well. 15 avoid and 2 atk does help.

If you want to lure him down, then there are many people who would be better off with the kill exp.

So get Sothe away (if needed) and just have Micaiah weaken him for someone else. She doesn't need the kill to be helpful.

Why don't I want Muarim taking the boss kill?

Because I'd rather have someone who's going to put the experience to use get it. Bosses give much more experience than normal enemies if you didn't know.

And Jill or Nolan with a Hammer can also deal good damage.

I'd totally take that if they could hit him reliably.

How is Micaiah going to be good against Radmin, anyway? Even at max level, she only 2HKOes. Compared to Sothe, who 1-rounds at base and has three times as much movement through thickets, it's a hilarious comparison. Or even Tormod.

"I honestly thought she was better against this guy" can be roughly translated to "She's not good against this guy, you're right."

Why wouldn't I want Sothe taking all of them? Sothe is great. And he will actually make use of that exp in Part 3.

Uh, no, not really (the part 3 part). His durability won't really change (still 2hkod by Tigers, too lazy to look at Cats) and his offense may only change in 3-12, but his Str caps low anyway.

[dondon151]

3 spaces, and also ignoring terrain, which is pretty common, and also having way higher durability, so there will be places that he can go that she can't.

Yeah, I almost never had Micaiah and Sothe on the same sides of a map. I think the only time when I used the support was turn 1 of 1-8.

I conceded Zaitan and Burton. But Sothe can easily go north and take out Pain and Agony in 1-4.

It's faster for Sothe to go south, but he will probably end up ORKOing at least one of them anyway. Didn't we determine that Pain had ridiculously bad AI? Once you bait him untransformed on turn 1, it's gg for him. Ilyana does 16 x2 HP damage with Elthunder and anyone can do 11 HP damage to him untransformed. What's even funnier is that Micaiah still needs to be level 10 on average to double him.

Why wouldn't I want Sothe taking all of them? Sothe is great. And he will actually make use of that exp in Part 3.

Even if you don't want Sothe to take the kills, there are better EXP sinks than Micaiah...

[Anouleth]

Thing is, maps aren't always too big this early, and even though Sothe is awesome he doesn't always want to be running away on his own. He wants her support as well. 15 avoid and 2 atk does help.

Early on, Sothe does not care one bit about Micaiah's support because he is the second coming of Jesus Christ relative to the enemies.

So get Sothe away (if needed) and just have Micaiah weaken him for someone else. She doesn't need the kill to be helpful.

Do I need to repeat my bit earlier? Laverton kills Micaiah in one round of combat. She is not weakening him. The only thing she can do is kill him, but why let her kill him when there are many more worthy recipients of the exp?

Because I'd rather have someone who's going to put the experience to use get it. Bosses give much more experience than normal enemies if you didn't know.

Except that Micaiah is doomed to staffbotting anyway, as you pointed out in your own rating. Why should I care if she has +1 magic or +0 magic?

Besides, if the only person that Micaiah is helping by taking boss kills is herself, and we have perfectly good alternatives that can take the boss kill in her place, it's not much of a positive.

I'd totally take that if they could hit him reliably.

It doesn't matter. If we take an extra turn so that Jill can have a 99% chance of hitting, that's not so much worse than taking an extra turn so that Micaiah can take the boss kill instead of having someone else do it -> then seize. Better, even, since there's a 90% chance of Jill nailing him the first time round.

Uh, no, not really (the part 3 part). His durability won't really change (still 2hkod by Tigers, too lazy to look at Cats) and his offense may only change in 3-12, but his Str caps low anyway.

More strength is still better. He doesn't cap until about level 8. Anything before then is useful. Skill is good for Beast Killer and 1-E. Speed isn't really important, he's still trapped in the murky zone between 20 and 24 AS where nothing useful happens, but he might double some fast Tigers. Certainly sounds more useful than more magic and resistance on Micaiah.

[Florete]

Early on, Sothe does not care one bit about Micaiah's support because he is the second coming of Jesus Christ relative to the enemies.

Early on, maps are also smaller, making it much easier to stay in range (and armored enemies do exist). Later on, when Sothe is not the second coming of Jesus Christ...well, you get the picture.

Except that Micaiah is doomed to staffbotting anyway, as you pointed out in your own rating. Why should I care if she has +1 magic or +0 magic?

She needs something. If you leave her to have 12 Magic on promotion her healbotting just won't be good. +1 alone might not be much, but when 80% growth starts to stack with level ups it becomes much better.

Besides, if the only person that Micaiah is helping by taking boss kills is herself, and we have perfectly good alternatives that can take the boss kill in her place, it's not much of a positive.

How does that follow? The point of staffbotting, which you've pointed out is what she does (and I agree with, seeing as it's in my review), is to help others. If someone like Edward, Nolan, or Jill could more easily take these kills that would be fine, but often enough they can't.

It doesn't matter. If we take an extra turn so that Jill can have a 99% chance of hitting, that's not so much worse than taking an extra turn so that Micaiah can take the boss kill instead of having someone else do it -> then seize. Better, even, since there's a 90% chance of Jill nailing him the first time round.

At neutral Biorythms she has 58 displayed Hit if she's gained two levels. With 12 Str she also does 31 damage to his 38 HP, so he either needs weakening or she needs to hit twice. How is this a 90% chance of nailing him the first time around? 58 displayed is ~65% true, so after two tries she has ~88% chance to nail him. Micaiah, on the other hand, will have well over 100 displayed (level 11 sees her at 142 to his 33 avoid, so 109 displayed. With her support active that adds 8 more, so even Biorythm can't really screw her over, whereas that could make things even worse on Jill). It's also worth noting that if Jill hasn't leveled enough and/or if she hasn't gotten any Str or Spd yet (not likely, but she's not completely safe either) the Hammer will cause her to be doubled by him, and even with a Robe, +1 HP and Def she'll still be killed in two hits (he'd do 17 damage to her 32 HP).

In the end I probably was thinking of early bosses with regard to Micaiah's boss killing, and/or I just overlevel her myself a lot. That alone won't make me drop her score, though, because it wasn't exactly a big point in the first place. Much of her utility is taking out problem enemies along the way and dealing big damage to others so you can avoid counters with tier 1 units, then healing in part 3 and 4.

[dondon151]

In the end I probably was thinking of early bosses with regard to Micaiah's boss killing, and/or I just overlevel her myself a lot. That alone won't make me drop her score, though, because it wasn't exactly a big point in the first place. Much of her utility is taking out problem enemies along the way and dealing big damage to others so you can avoid counters with tier 1 units, then healing in part 3 and 4.

This is what we're contesting, though. The player only needs Micaiah to hit like 2 armors in the entirety of part 1, and the rest of the time her chip damage doesn't exactly help secure KOs, unless the player actually feeds her EXP that should go elsewhere.

[Florete]

This is what we're contesting, though. The player only needs Micaiah to hit like 2 armors in the entirety of part 1, and the rest of the time her chip damage doesn't exactly help secure KOs, unless the player actually feeds her EXP that should go elsewhere.

Only two? Surely there are more than that. What are you suggesting we do with them? Yes, we technically don't "need" Micaiah for any of them, but I'm sure you know where that will lead us.

And who else do you suggest all the experience go to, especially early before people like Jill start showing up? You can't be spreading your experience too thin, and as stated before, Micaiah does actually need experience to fulfill her role in part 3 and 4 well.

[dondon151]

Only two? Surely there are more than that. What are you suggesting we do with them? Yes, we technically don't "need" Micaiah for any of them, but I'm sure you know where that will lead us.

The only armor that Micaiah really needs to kill is the one blocking the arrive tile on 1-3. Every other instance is just trying to combine for a 2HKO. You don't really have any more instances of armors blocking your way until like 1-7, and by then you have units that can double them for heavy damage like Volug or Zihark (they also have more move and better starting positions).

And who else do you suggest all the experience go to, especially early before people like Jill start showing up? You can't be spreading your experience too thin, and as stated before, Micaiah does actually need experience to fulfill her role in part 3 and 4 well.

The real amount of CEXP available is actually rather small due to Sothe soloing most maps, so you give what you can get to Nolan. Micaiah does not actually need much EXP at all to use Physic in part 3.

[Anouleth]

Early on, maps are also smaller, making it much easier to stay in range (and armored enemies do exist). Later on, when Sothe is not the second coming of Jesus Christ...well, you get the picture.

So when Sothe doesn't need it, she can support him, and later on when Sothe does need it, we have large, terrain-heavy maps so she can't reach him.

She needs something. If you leave her to have 12 Magic on promotion her healbotting just won't be good. +1 alone might not be much, but when 80% growth starts to stack with level ups it becomes much better.

Sure, it becomes better... but in comparison to letting someone more useful like Jill, Nolan or Sothe taking bosskills, she's obviously losing out. And there's a limit to how good staves can be. 16 magic may not seem like much, but in a map like 4-3 or 4-E-1, it's enough to get the job done.

How does that follow? The point of staffbotting, which you've pointed out is what she does (and I agree with, seeing as it's in my review), is to help others. If someone like Edward, Nolan, or Jill could more easily take these kills that would be fine, but often enough they can't.

The logic goes like this - if someone is doing something that someone else could do much better, if the only reason to do so is for experience, they don't take credit for it. For example, you 'could' use Micaiah to kill Pugo in 1-P.

At neutral Biorythms she has 58 displayed Hit if she's gained two levels. With 12 Str she also does 31 damage to his 38 HP, so he either needs weakening or she needs to hit twice. How is this a 90% chance of nailing him the first time around? 58 displayed is ~65% true, so after two tries she has ~88% chance to nail him. Micaiah, on the other hand, will have well over 100 displayed (level 11 sees her at 142 to his 33 avoid, so 109 displayed. With her support active that adds 8 more, so even Biorythm can't really screw her over, whereas that could make things even worse on Jill). It's also worth noting that if Jill hasn't leveled enough and/or if she hasn't gotten any Str or Spd yet (not likely, but she's not completely safe either) the Hammer will cause her to be doubled by him, and even with a Robe, +1 HP and Def she'll still be killed in two hits (he'd do 17 damage to her 32 HP).

Micaiah also needs Djur to be weakened. I didn't look at the exact hit. I think that two levels is a little bit low if we intend for her to promote at the end of Part 1. The Energy Drop fixes her risk of getting doubled. Plus, if she misses, she can just canto away and let someone else finish. So she can still try to take the kill.

In the end I probably was thinking of early bosses with regard to Micaiah's boss killing, and/or I just overlevel her myself a lot. That alone won't make me drop her score, though, because it wasn't exactly a big point in the first place. Much of her utility is taking out problem enemies along the way and dealing big damage to others so you can avoid counters with tier 1 units, then healing in part 3 and 4.

I never really found that weakening enemies for others was that great.

[RNG Princess]

The real amount of CEXP available is actually rather small due to Sothe soloing most maps, so you give what you can get to Nolan. Micaiah does not actually need much EXP at all to use Physic in part 3.

1-5 seems like a good place to feed experience to her (and Nolan, or whoever else is being raised).

and she can always sacrifice, I doubt Part 1 is that CEXP starved ^^'

She can have the boss kill in 1-3.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Joerachi]

1-5 seems like a good place to feed experience to her (and Nolan, or whoever else is being raised).

Since she can get to the ledge by turn 4, she can snipe mages without to much risk.If Micaiah is level 4 by then, 45 avoid(Sothe support)+Height advantage puts the Iron Bow archer at 25 hit, and the Steel bow archer at 21. If she got 1 point in defense, which is by no means a stretch, she survives a hit from the Iron bow Archer.

and she can always sacrifice, I doubt Part 1 is that CEXP starved ^^'

Not to mention Sacrifice extends Laura's range of healing, and +10 exp is pretty cool too, considering she wants all the EXP she can get.

She can have the boss kill in 1-3.

Definitely. Nobody 1RKO's Burton, and he fails to do so himself, with exceptions of Laura and Micaiah, (but everybody can do that). Easy chip damage.

[dondon151]

1-5 seems like a good place to feed experience to her (and Nolan, or whoever else is being raised).

You have 6 turns, and it's likely that you'll only be able to get her kills on 5 of those turns at most (good luck getting her a kill on turn 1; you'll get raped).

and she can always sacrifice, I doubt Part 1 is that CEXP starved ^^'

Sure, but that's only 10 EXP a pop, and Micaiah can only sacrifice 2 or 3 times per map before her HP is completely gone.

She can have the boss kill in 1-3.

Negative. If you can kill the boss in 1-3, that means you can escape, so you'd be taking an extra turn.

[Junkhead]

In 1-5 the most ideal thing has to be feeding most kills to Volug, anyways. Maybe that's just me, since I didn't bother with Nolan on my current HM playlog. But it's just safe to throw Volug out there, preferably out of Fire Mage range, and there they have it.

In 1-3, it isn't impossible or uneffecient to have Micaiah kill the boss. In fact, it's really fast, and as Joe mentioned she is the only one 1RKO Burton aside Sothe scoring a Kard!Critical.

[Anouleth]

In 1-5 the most ideal thing has to be feeding most kills to Volug, anyways. Maybe that's just me, since I didn't bother with Nolan on my current HM playlog. But it's just safe to throw Volug out there, preferably out of Fire Mage range, and there they have it.

rly? Strike exp isn't that great. I'd rather have more EXP on Edward or Nolan.

In 1-3, it isn't impossible or uneffecient to have Micaiah kill the boss. In fact, it's really fast, and as Joe mentioned she is the only one 1RKO Burton aside Sothe scoring a Kard!Critical.

It's not 'really fast', since you don't even need to fight Burton to complete the chapter. It's faster to block him off with Sothe and have Micaiah seize.

[RNG Princess]

Well aside of the previous mentioned chapter 1-4 comes to mind where she can wrath-snipe enemies and maybe a boss kill for CEXP, its easy and not inefficient. You can slap paragon on her for 1-7/1-8/1-9/1-E although 1-7 and 1-E seem like they would be more efficient on her ^_^.

Sothe is important but raising other characters is just as important ^.^ although its possible to get away without raising her much I see many indirect advantages using her. Like Joerachi said Laura gets more healing chances (to reach C in staves) and Micaiah's healing would be better.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Joerachi]

It's not 'really fast', since you don't even need to fight Burton to complete the chapter. It's faster to block him off with Sothe and have Micaiah seize.

I'm pretty curious about this. If someone could give me Lavertons starting location, I could check if her getting the boss kill really affects her seize time.

EDIT: Did I really say Laverton?

Edited November 7, 2010 by Joerachi

[dondon151]

I'm pretty curious about this. If someone could give me Lavertons starting location, I could check if her getting the boss kill really affects her seize time.

Here you go. This should be all the proof that I need.

[RNG Princess]

not to sound rude but I see a few instances where your characters could gain CEXP instead of just rushing in with Sothe:

Turn 1:

Eddie could of used the Wind Edge to gain some cexp on that fighter, since Sothe is killing him anyway.

Nolan/Leo shove Micaiah

Turn2:

*Eddie used steel sword on the archer + Micaiah thani bombing for the kill ^_^ (it worked for me, I guess it depends your character's stats)

and I used a different tactic, still got the boss kill and took 6 turns but idk how to explain it so maybe i should record it ^_^. Except I think it made a difference because I used a transfered Ilyana.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Turn 1:

Eddie could of used the Wind Edge to gain some cexp on that fighter, since Sothe is killing him anyway.

and I used a different tactic, still got the boss kill and took 6 turns but idk how to explain it so maybe i should record it ^_^. Except I think it made a difference because I used a transfered Ilyana.

You managed to kill the armor and Burton with Micaiah while still escaping on turn 6? Movement-wise, that's impossible barring a large number of shoves on Micaiah.

Edited November 7, 2010 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

not to sound rude but I see a few instances where your characters could gain CEXP instead of just rushing in with Sothe:

Turn 1:

Eddie could of used the Wind Edge to gain some cexp on that fighter, since Sothe is killing him anyway.

Nolan/Leo shove Micaiah

Turn2:

*Eddie used steel sword on the archer + Micaiah thani bombing for the kill ^_^ (it worked for me, I guess it depends your character's stats)

and I used a different tactic, still got the boss kill and took 6 turns but idk how to explain it so maybe i should record it ^_^. Except I think it made a difference because I used a transfered Ilyana.

If you haven't noticed, he's playing 0% growths, so he has absolutely no motivation to babysit Edward. Obviously on a 'real' playthrough, you would try to maximise EXP gain.

With all that out of the way, I don't think that RFoF's ratings assume 'absolute minimum turncount', but that doesn't change the fact that:

-we don't have to fight Burton

-even if we choose to go out of our way to fight Burton, there's no reason not to also go out of our way so that Edward or Nolan can take the kill, since they make better use of the exp than Micaiah.

[Interceptor]

With all that out of the way, I don't think that RFoF's ratings assume 'absolute minimum turncount'

I was starting to wonder how long it would be before someone remembered this.

[Joerachi]

I don't see how Micaiah killing Burton is really that inefficient.

This map has Burtons maximum range highlighted in red with the Yellow square being Burton. Looking at this map, Micaiah can't reach the Arrive without Excessive shoving, assuming she's just outside of Burton's Range. Micaiah is going to the same place at the same time regardless of Sothe blocking Burton or not. As I said, nobody but Micky Sue and Laura(Maybe Leo, but I'm not sure. I'll check later.) gets 1RKO'd by Burton, so even Aran can chip without fear. Micky just needs 2-3 damage off of Burton to kill, and who's to say she can't get closer to the Arrive, It's not like she isn't getting there any faster with the Longbow Archer trolling around. She isn't getting there any quicker (unless, again, an overabundance of shoving, but she needs 2 shoves outside of Burton's maximum range to do so, and you still have to deal with the longbow douche.). Micky can get the boss kill and Arrive next turn.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Joerachi

[Anouleth]

I was starting to wonder how long it would be before someone remembered this.

Well, it was Soul that said it was 'really fast' for Micaiah to kill Burton. Obviously, that's not the case.

I don't see how Micaiah killing Burton is really that inefficient.

This map has Burtons maximum range highlighted in red with the Yellow square being Burton. Looking at this map, Micaiah can't reach the Arrive without Excessive shoving, assuming she's just outside of Burton's Range. Micaiah is going to the same place at the same time regardless of Sothe blocking Burton or not. As I said, nobody but Micky Sue and Laura(Maybe Leo, but I'm not sure. I'll check later.) gets 1RKO'd by Burton, so even Aran can chip without fear. Micky just needs 2-3 damage off of Burton to kill, and who's to say she can't get closer to the Arrive. She isn't getting there any quicker (unless, again, an overabundance of shoving, but she needs 2 shoves outside of Burton's maximum range to do so.). Micky can get the boss kill and Arrive next turn.

It's because instead of getting the boss kill and Arriving next turn, she can just Arrive. Micaiah kills the Armour, Sothe kills the Archer. That puts Micaiah in range to arrive straight away. Obviously, we are slowing ourselves down so that Micaiah can take the kill.

[Joerachi]

Was something lost in translation here?

Even if Sothe blocks Burton, Micaiah can't move into the Arrive. In order for her to do that she needs to be in Burtons range Prior to your turn start, meaning Burton could've came out and ROFLSTOMPED Micaiah. It's pretty hard to complete the chapter with a dead Micaiah. Micaiah has to move in the Arrive Range on the same turn sothe is blocking Burton. It's takes the same amount of turns to have anyone lure out Burton, have Micaiah kill Burton, while at the same time have Micaiah more in arrive range, and next turn Arrive.