Nino vs Lilinia

[CATS]

Roy has a harem. (You know it's true.) Why would he care about Lilina?

That's my point, Roy (who is practically a manwhore) is the best she can do. Nino is much better in this department.

Why/how?

Why not? Because Nino joins later? So what? This isn't about who contributes more to a maximum efficiency playthrough. This is just about who's better, and Nino is way better. Her stats are hilariously higher. It's not at all fair or reasonable to say that Nino sucks or is way worse than Lilina just because of the limitations placed on Nino by an artificial and arbitrary mindset.

[Inui]

Nino is so much better it's not even funny. Just compare their stats at even levels.

At level 20/0:

Nino: 27.25 Hp, 14.5 Mag, 16.25 Skl, 20 Spd, 16.75 Lck, 6.25 Def, 14.5 Res

Lilina: 24.6 Hp, 18.8 Mag, 8.8 Skl, 10.6 Spd, 13.5 Lck, 3.9 Def, 13.6 Res

Lilina wins in Mag by 4 points, and then loses in every other stat. She gets horribly massacred in Skl and Spd. It's not even close and I can't believe that people are seriously somehow supporting Lilina. Not to mention Nino's affinity is better. Plus, Nino hooks up with Jaffar. Lilina hooks up with Roy. Jaffar >>> Roy.

Indeed.

You can't just move a character up like that >_>. Ray is where he is because he isn't better than the characters above him, though I could see him going a couple spots up if you tried really hard. FE6 tiers take HUGE jumps compared to other ones. For example, high tier is waaaaaay better than upper-mid in FE6, whereas in FE7 it's not too big of a difference. That's why a horrible unit like Lilina isn't in bottom tier.

Ray isn't better than them. He's certainly better than the ones IN THE CURRENT TIER HE'S IN. He should be with units of the same value...those in the next tier up.

[Tangerine]

Ray isn't better than them. He's certainly better than the ones IN THE CURRENT TIER HE'S IN. He should be with units of the same value...those in the next tier up.

Not really, I'm not seeing it. He has trouble doubling in HM, joins underleveled and loses even more AS from every dark tome in the game until he promotes (which is when he can use only Flux without AS loss). Niime has the strongest and longest range Physic in the game for quite a while and a high enough staff rank to use all of the most useful staves. I don't see how Ray is better than even the unit directly above him.

[Inui]

Joining underleveled is fine when YOU DON'T TAKE COUNTERS AND GET TO FIGHT ENEMIES WITH HORRIBLE RES AND EVD. He then gets full Hit and Evd from Lugh, who definitely wants him (lol he only has Ellen beforehand and supporting with Chad is absolute fail for anyone).

After promotion, he can heal and is literally invincible due to Nosferatu, which you can purchase. Niime's durability is so horrible. 25 HP/5 Def = getting one-shotted a lot.

It's not like Ray joins you Nino-late. It's perfectly feasible to have him promoted at the tail end of Chapter 16, and then after that he is an incredible unit. His joining situation is actually better than every single unit in the earlygame, including top tier like Lance and Alan.

[Florete]

Why not? Because Nino joins later? So what?

So, like, less time to level. Yeah, I think that's what having fewer maps means.

This isn't about who contributes more to a maximum efficiency playthrough. This is just about who's better, and Nino is way better.

wtf. Isn't our definition of who's better the one who contributes more? If you're just going to talk about performance against enemies and not compare how they are relative to the team, you're not really finding out which is more useful at all.

But wait, you weren't even doing that. You just brought up the average stats of the two at a certain level. That occasionally isn't even enough for units in the same game facing the same enemies.

[Tangerine]

Joining underleveled is fine when YOU DON'T TAKE COUNTERS AND GET TO FIGHT ENEMIES WITH HORRIBLE RES AND EVD. He then gets full Hit and Evd from Lugh, who definitely wants him (lol he only has Ellen beforehand and supporting with Chad is absolute fail for anyone).

Uh, no, it isn't fine. Ray can't double, has trouble hitting, GETS doubled when he first joins and even at 20/0 if he uses more than Flux. Supporting with Chad isn't "fail" at all early on. It provides extra durability and offense to both Lugh and Chad, which is great for before Chad caps. The early game is harder than late game; I'd take the extra durability there over the extra durability late game every time.

After promotion, he can heal and is literally invincible due to Nosferatu, which you can purchase. Niime's durability is so horrible. 25 HP/5 Def = getting one-shotted a lot.

Uh, you're relying on 100 hit and 13 AS to be "invincible". You can also only buy them in chapter 14 and chapter 23 and it costs 3000 gold per book. That is not an efficient purchase when you COULD be buying Killer weapons for the rest of your team. Niime NEVER gets killed because her primary use is staff utility. She has the longest range Physic/Status staves in the game, make use of them.

[-Cynthia-]

At level 20/0:

Nino: 27.25 Hp, 14.5 Mag, 16.25 Skl, 20 Spd, 16.75 Lck, 6.25 Def, 14.5 Res

Lilina: 24.6 Hp, 18.8 Mag, 8.8 Skl, 10.6 Spd, 13.5 Lck, 3.9 Def, 13.6 Res

Lilina wins in Mag by 4 points, and then loses in every other stat. She gets horribly massacred in Skl and Spd. It's not even close and I can't believe that people are seriously somehow supporting Lilina. Not to mention Nino's affinity is better. Plus, Nino hooks up with Jaffar. Lilina hooks up with Roy. Jaffar >>> Roy.

Why are we comparing the two at even levels when one has a large jointime advantage over the other? That's just silly.

Really, I guess the issue is what we consider better, how a unit performs against enemies, or how a unit performs against enemies relative to the rest of the team.

I personally go with the team approach, which is why in games like FE10 Micaiah> Soren, despite the fact he's better durably, offensively (higher chip and can actually double sometimes), and can get staves sooner. However, Micaiah's team struggles more against enemies, so she's better by comparison.

Edited February 2, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[CATS]

Maybe that's what you think, and it's definitely the established precedent for a tier list. This however, is not a tier list topic. The thinking of a tier list does not automatically dictate over every other topic.

Performance against enemies isn't any more relevant than join time.

Things like that are just circumstances forced on the unit by whatever game they happen to be in. Ofcourse any unit can be made to be better than another if extremely unfavorable circumstances are forced upon one party. Dart is considered bad in a game with only sword enemies and no Reaver weapons. Raven is considered bad if he joins at level 1 in the final chapter. etc. A unit's performance under that mindset depends on their circumstances at least as much as the actual qualities and traits possessed by the unit, if not moreso. It's not consistent at all.

Comparing based on the actual capabilities and inherent qualities of the units in question is much more indicative of who is objectively better. If I had to bet on an arena match between an evenly levelled Nino and Lilina, I'd put money on Nino. If I could add a level 5 Nino or a level 5 Lilina to my team, I would add Nino. etc. Now if you introduce unfair advantages to Lilina, of course she is more desirable, but if you take away the biased circumstances Nino is much better.

[Florete]

I'll just agree to disagree, since it's obvious we won't be using the same standards and I don't feel like trying to convince you otherwise.

[Inui]

Uh, no, it isn't fine. Ray can't double, has trouble hitting, GETS doubled when he first joins and even at 20/0 if he uses more than Flux. Supporting with Chad isn't "fail" at all early on. It provides extra durability and offense to both Lugh and Chad, which is great for before Chad caps. The early game is harder than late game; I'd take the extra durability there over the extra durability late game every time.

Please name enemies that are doubling Ray. The plethora of axe users? No. Those Wyverns and Cavaliers? Not at all, they are weighed down. They don't have good Evd and they have crappy Res. Ray gets to freely hit them for big damage.

Supporting with Chad is great early. And then it's not. Lugh benefits significantly more from Ellen and Ray as they provide bonuses for a significantly longer period of time due to how much longer chapters get and how infrequently you will field Chad.

Uh, you're relying on 100 hit and 13 AS to be "invincible". You can also only buy them in chapter 14 and chapter 23 and it costs 3000 gold per book. That is not an efficient purchase when you COULD be buying Killer weapons for the rest of your team. Niime NEVER gets killed because her primary use is staff utility. She has the longest range Physic/Status staves in the game, make use of them.

Yes, I am, because it's not 100 Hit. Ray gets +15 hit from Lugh (and possibly others). He's invincible because any damage he takes is instantly healed back.

As for cost...Funds is exceptionally easy in this game, just like in FE 6. Yeah, he's a bit expensive, but not much more so than Killing Edge-spamming Rutger or something like that. What you get for the cost is an invincible unit that does huge damage with his hit and can heal people. He also improves Lugh. Pretty worthwhile investment.

@ CATS: Nino is better even on a tier list.

[CATS]

I dunno. By this board's tier list thinking (i.e. non-ranked) they're both liek, utterly worthless. I guess Nino is easier to use as a sacrifice without wasting a unit slot, since she's forced on NoF and not stuck in a cage unarmed like Lilina in Ch 8.

[Inui]

Non-ranked? Are you serious? Then what's the point?

Abuse Kent to 20/1 in Lyn's mode. Best unit by far.

Abuse Dieck to 20/20 Hero in Chapter 7. Best unit by far.

Abuse the tower. Trainees are broken.

Etc.

[Tangerine]

Well, this is going nowhere just like in your debate with Fox, so I'm going to go ahead and end it here before I waste any more time.

[CATS]

Non-ranked? Are you serious? Then what's the point?

Abuse Kent to 20/1 in Lyn's mode. Best unit by far.

Abuse Dieck to 20/20 Hero in Chapter 7. Best unit by far.

Abuse the tower. Trainees are broken.

Etc.

Their definition of non-ranked/efficiency is to complete the game in the fewest number of turns with no regard given to Exp gains or Funds consumed. Thus abuse is not viable under their standards. The goal you're given in "efficiency" is consistent and clear, just like with S Ranking.

Edited February 2, 2010 by CATS

[Inui]

I see no point in devaluing being cost-efficient, though.

[CATS]

In exchange for devaluing cost-efficiency, a greater value is placed on turncount efficiency. If you're just trying to S Rank, you can fulfill the S Rank turncount requirements and stop there, no need to be any faster. "Efficiency" emphasizes completing the game even faster than that if possible (which it probably is). It's a trade-off, and both can certainly make for interesting discussion. I see no reason that people cannot give attention to both or whichever one happens to be in style at the moment.

[Inui]

I'd love to argue about both. It'd be nice if people didn't outright hate on me for using ranks, though.

[Shamanx21]

If ranks weren't taken into consideration then I don't really see a point in arguing about it.

[Hero]

If ranks weren't taken into consideration then I don't really see a point in arguing about it.

No point? Comparing these two characters from completely different games is already a waste of time, so why not be complete about it and take ranks into consideration?

It makes no less sense than fiercely arguing on strict turn-efficiency terms. Not to mention that it allows us to evaluate the original question from a different angle.

[Inui]

Nino has Experience rank value and eventually turns into a very good unit.

Lilina is always trash and even an outright burden.

So, winner is Nino?

[CATS]

Ofcourse. FE6 ranks are a joke in general, and both are utterly useless on efficiency runs. Nino can actually do a small something on FE7 ranked runs. Plus, her stats are hilariously higher.

[ReformBlade]

Normally I'm a sucker for green hair, but... I have to say Lilina.

[Hero]

both are utterly useless on efficiency runs.

No character is completely useless on an efficiency run, they all contribute at a certain level, however modest.

Didn't we establish earlier that Lilina contributes more on an efficiency run with her potshots, thanks to greater availability and less competition for deployment slots? Her usefulness will be extended further if she gets a few lucky level ups.

This is a small opportunity that practically every unit has, but it's an advantage all the same and it highlights the hopelessness of Nino's situation when you're playing efficiently. She'll never gain levels without focused kill-feeding.

Normally I'm a sucker for green hair, but... I have to say Lilina.

Any reason?

[CATS]

No character is completely useless on an efficiency run, they all contribute at a certain level, however modest.

Didn't we establish earlier that Lilina contributes more on an efficiency run with her potshots, thanks to greater availability and less competition for deployment slots? Her usefulness will be extended further if she gets a few lucky level ups.

This is a small opportunity that practically every unit has, but it's an advantage all the same and it highlights the hopelessness of Nino's situation when you're playing efficiently. She'll never gain levels without focused kill-feeding.

Lilina's not taking any "pot shots" on an efficiency run. She spends the majority of her join chapter stuck in a cage and unarmed, and then she's never worth fielding afterwards as she starts off terrible and never becomes good, she's only mediocre even if you bother to raise her. You're better off just using her as a sacrifice near the end of Ch 8.

Nino's use on a max efficiency run is similar. Neither one is getting kills without focused kill-feeding. Nino might actually have better offense than Lilina when she joins thanks to the large disparity in stats between FE6 and FE7 enemies and Nino's considerably better bases. Nino starts off with 2 more Mag against enemies that have only 1 or 2 more Res if any more at all, and her base 10 AS can actually double some of the crappier things in FE7, like steel weapon pirates and cavs, whereas Lilina's base 4 Spd won't even double knights or loldiers.

Edited February 4, 2010 by CATS

[Rewjeo]

I'd expect for YOU to know that when bad units are compared, they're compared as if they're actually used seriously. If it was just a max efficiency run, you'd have the top ~15 units up high, and then everyone else in bottom tier ordered by how much they contribute in their joining chapter.

Edit: Okay, so this isn't a tier list, so we don't have to follow those rules. But the only reason to debate who's better is in the event that both ARE used.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Slize