Nino vs Lilinia

[Florete]

This whole thing about Nino getting weighed down and Lilina somehow winning as a result is total BS. Ether already explained it, but I'll do it again.

1. Nino wins base Spd and growth by a mile, so even weighed down she'll likely win.

2. Nino faces slower enemies so she doesn't even need as much to double.

3. Nino faces higher leveled enemies so she'll grow faster.

4. Nino faces weaker enemies so she doesn't even need stronger weapons to kill all the time.

Except Nino isn't getting to that level without babying.

And neither is Lilina

You also ignored Lilina's OVERKILL Magic.

So?

[Ether]

If we go from ORKOing everything to 2RKOing everything, then it could easily double the amount of time the chapter takes. It might not effect it much, but it's a big difference.

And saying "BUT RANKED RUNS" doesn't mean much. The vast majority of people don't care about ranks and would much rather play an efficient game. There's a reason FE7 was the last game with Ranks in it. IS realized how pointless they were.

What about base Nino? How comparable is she to 20/1 Erk? Not very. And that's pretty low for him to be, as well.

Saying "She's only higher because of this..." doesn't change the fact that she IS higher. That's easily weaker than my argument. You admit that Lilina is better in comparison to her team, but then try to argue that Nino's better?

I think they meant that having one team member use a slim weapon and having Nino finish it off is no different than just killing it outright,so Nino gets exp without hurting anything,not that everyone is using slim now.

Lilina doesn't need that nearly as much. Attacking armors from range. So basically by this logic we have to conclude Nino is getting ~1 kill per turn. It really isn't worth it. Lilina at least comes early enough that you don't need to stick a knife in your arm to get her kills.

It's not sticking a knife in your arm,it's just giving Nino a way to get exp.Either way,the enemy dies,and you don;t need two main combat units to do it,just 1 + Nino.

The big difference is that Nino gains EXP faster than Lilina due to higher level enemies,and doesn;t take a horrid amount of time to hold her own.The thing with Lilina is that she will never be an efficient combat unit,due to her spd,while Nino can double and kill once raised.Since neither is worth all that much while they are being babied,Nino is the superior character for being better afterward.

A debate would assume that both characters are trained. Lilina doesn't get weighed down by every tome not named fire like Nino does. The higher damage output with no/less AS loss is better than Nino getting weighed down by everything. Sage Lilina only loses 1 AS from foreblaze, while Nino loses 1 AS from thunder, 5 from elfire, etc. At base level with an elfire, their AS isn't that different. And Nino is 4 levels higher. Lilina actually gets time to level and by that time using respective tomes, Lilina's AS can be better than Nino considering that Nino loses a huge amount of speed from tomes other than fire.

Thier AS is not Similar at all.Nino has +7 base,+25% growth,is lower leveled relative to enemies,and thus grows faster,and faces slower enemies.Nino and Lilina's AS isn;t even on the same goddamn planet.Losing 2 AS from thunder isn;t gonna make her slower than Lilina

Lilina doesn't lose anything from elfire. Nino loses 6 as a mage, and 5 as a sage. That drags her down considerably. At base level with elfire, Nino goes down to 6 AS compared to Lilina's 4 AS and she's 4 levels higher. And only 4 damage more. The point is Lilina has a better arsenel of weapons that she can use properly as opposed to Nino. With the weighing down from the good tomes, she will get doubled and killed.

So Nino doesn;t use Elfire,pretty Simple.FE7 thunder has the same Mt as FE6 Elfire,so it's not like she's taking a Mt hit in comparison.And Thunder has 4 less Wt.

Minus 2 speed. With a unit with that durability into the game, it can lead to death. If you do it debate styled and move them into a spot proportional to their games, Lilina's end stats WILL beat Nino's.

9 Base AS is fine for FE7,since 13-14 doubles reliably for most of the game,she's in no danger of being doubled aside from a couple select enemies you probably want to get rid of quickly anyway.

Lilina will be doubled more than Nino.While by 13/1,Nino has 14 AS with thunder,and doubles,while also having Staves,so she is pulling her own weight.That's 8 levels,and growing faster than Lilina.

8 levels later for Lilina...7 Spd...wow,so impressive.Looks like Lilina is still holding us back.

You see,while both are bad early on,Nino becomes a competent offensive unit eventually,while Lilina does not.

Because when we finish the game, Nino will be the same level as Lilina.

She doesn't need to be.

a 20/0 Lilina has the same Spd as Base Nino,Yes Nino loses more AS from tomes,but Also fights slower enemies.

Add that to the fact that Nino is easier to raise,and it is simple to see.

In fact,even if Lilina hit 20/20,Nino would only need to hit 20/0,or any equivalent level,to match Spd,that,my friend,is pitiful.

Except Nino isn't getting to that level without babying. You also ignored Lilina's OVERKILL Magic.

Yet it would take less babying than to get Lilina to where she needs to be.

Also,lilina's mag isn't enough to OHKO,so it doesn;t save her from not doubling.

You see,the problem with your argument is that you want to favorite Lilina,but not Nino,despite the fact that it is easier and more worthwile to favorite Nino over Lilina.

As long as you continue this,you're argument won't get anywhere.

How am I babying?

The agreed levels that they could reach WITHOUT babying were 20/10 and 15/1.

heh,whaddaya know,at those levels,Nino is slightly faster

Also,WTF at Lilina hitting 20/10 without babying.mediocre offense and terribad durability =/= gaining 28 levels in any time frame without babying.if I recall correctly,20/10 is the assumed level for units like LANCE or ALLEN,not Lilina.

EDIT:Thank you Red Fox,this is getting rediculous.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Ether

[BK-201]

This whole thing about Nino getting weighed down and Lilina somehow winning as a result is total BS. Ether already explained it, but I'll do it again.

1. Nino wins base Spd and growth by a mile, so even weighed down she'll likely win.

2. Nino faces slower enemies so she doesn't even need as much to double.

3. Nino faces higher leveled enemies so she'll grow faster.

4. Nino faces weaker enemies so she doesn't even need stronger weapons to kill all the time.

1. Conceded in speed.

2. Then her speed is less valuable, at least Lilina's high magic is worth something.

3. So? Lilina gets so many more chapters.

4. Except she isn't going to be contributing even if used as a regular team member in the final chapter unless massive babying is given.

[Florete]

2. Then her speed is less valuable, at least Lilina's high magic is worth something.

No. What, pray tell, is Lilina's high Magic worth if she isn't doubling (aka killing, since she doesn't OHKO)? If Nino can double she can likely/possibly kill, and then she's on par offensively with the rest of the team while Lilina is still a potshotter.

3. So? Lilina gets so many more chapters.

Yes, she sucks for longer.

4. Except she isn't going to be contributing even if used as a regular team member in the final chapter unless massive babying is given.

Neither is Lilina. And it doesn't take "massive babying" to use Nino anyway. Once she hits 15-20/1 (aka promotion) she can hold her own pretty well.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Rewjeo]

STOP QUOTING. Seriously.

@Nino then not slowing down with the slim+Nino strategy: Unit X (who has the slim weapon) + Nino = 1 Kill. Unit x (with non slim weapon) + Erk = 2 Kills + Enemy phase stuffs. And possibly more money.

[Ether]

STOP QUOTING. Seriously.

@Nino then not slowing down with the slim+Nino strategy: Unit X (who has the slim weapon) + Nino = 1 Kill. Unit x (with non slim weapon) + Erk = 2 Kills + Enemy phase stuffs. And possibly more money.

The point is,with FE7's more competent team,we can kill enough enemies that one person using slim to not ORKO isn't much of an issue.

Lilina doesn;t have this luxury,the team can;t defend her and it can't set up kills for her without going out of it's way.

[Rewjeo]

At least she's eventually a positive, unlike Nino.

[Tangerine]

Well, Fox already won this debate before I got here. No real reason for me to reply again; Nino is the clear victor. I will reply to this though:

And saying "BUT RANKED RUNS" doesn't mean much. The vast majority of people don't care about ranks and would much rather play an efficient game. There's a reason FE7 was the last game with Ranks in it. IS realized how pointless they were.

I'm sorry, have you ever been to GameFAQs? The site with a larger debate community than this one? The site that ONLY debates ranked? Yeah, that's why I take both efficiency AND ranks into account when discussing the overall worth of a character here. I'm not arrogant enough to ignore one because I'm uninterested in it.

Saying "She's only higher because of this..." doesn't change the fact that she IS higher. That's easily weaker than my argument. You admit that Lilina is better in comparison to her team, but then try to argue that Nino's better?

No, that is not weak in the slightest. Relative tier placement is absolutely worthless. I also do not agree with Lilina's placement even on an efficiency tier list, so don't put words in my mouth.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Tangerine

[Florete]

I'm sorry, have you ever been to GameFAQs? The site with a larger debate community than this one? The site that ONLY debates ranked?

To be fair, aside from the current debate tourney (Is that even ranked?), it doesn't look like you guys have done much tier discussing lately either (I think the latest ranked list got archived). Most of this forum's debate community moved to a new forum Mekkah created, though that's somewhat dead as it is right now.

The point: I have to agree with him on this. SF is not known for caring about ranks and never has been. Sure, you guys might over at GFaqs, but this isn't GFaqs, so what you guys do doesn't really matter. Although it's fine to mention it as a side note, I wouldn't try to use it as a main point in a character's favor.

[Tangerine]

I'm sorry, have you ever been to GameFAQs? The site with a larger debate community than this one? The site that ONLY debates ranked?

To be fair, aside from the current debate tourney (Is that even ranked?), it doesn't look like you guys have done much tier discussing lately either (I think the latest ranked list got archived). Most of this forum's debate community moved to a new forum Mekkah created, though that's somewhat dead as it is right now.

The point: I have to agree with him on this. SF is not known for caring about ranks and never has been. Sure, you guys might over at GFaqs, but this isn't GFaqs, so what you guys do doesn't really matter. Although it's fine to mention it as a side note, I wouldn't try to use it as a main point in a character's favor.

That's largely because Jaffar, Reikken and I have not been able to do much with it lately. It's pretty time consuming to actually make large tier changes and none of us really have it at the moment. I haven't talked to Reikken in a while, so I at least assume he hasn't had the time anyway. It dies pretty quickly when none of us are there. I was also invited to that new forum and noticed it was dead, so I haven't really bothered to take part. I did sign up though, so maybe eventually.

I don't think I used it as a main point in her favor. In fact, if you look back, I mentioned it in passing rather than making it a main argument. There's a difference between taking note of it and completely ignoring it because "omg ranks r stupid". Oh, and yeah, the tourney assumes ranks are in play. It isn't stated because we ONLY debate ranks there, so it doesn't need to be stated.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Tangerines

[Rewjeo]

I never said that it didn't matter at all, I said it didn't count for much. It makes it so that I think Lilina>Nino instead of Lilina>>>Nino.

Didn't didn't put the words your mouth. You said, "The only reason Lilina is that high"... Relative tier placements matter because it makes it quite clear that Lilina is better than a fair portion of the cast while Nino is hard pressed to beat out people like Karla.

The only reasonable way to compare them is Lilina+her team vs. Nino+her team. Lilina is much better compared to her team than Nino is to hers.

[-Cynthia-]

Part of the issue here seems to be how we compare units on different teams.

Personally I would say that even though Nino's performance against enemies might be better, her performance relative to the team can still be worse. We have to consider that Nino's team is much better at this point in time than the team at Lilina's jointime, therefore Lilina's poor performance is more excusable. Nino's team is all promoted in a game which is generally easier all around. Basically, while we might get some use out of Lilina's potshots, Nino's chip damage really does nothing for the team at this point.

If we apply the logic here to something like FE10 that has team splits, we could easily say something along the lines of Boyd>Nolan, because Boyd is better against his Part 3 enemies that Nolan does against his in Parts 1 or 3. The reason that Nolan is clearly better than Boyd despite this is because Nolan performs favorably to the rest of the Dawn Brigade (only Sothe, Volug and the Jeigans beat him), while Boyd is pretty average in comparison to the rest of the GMs.

Edited January 18, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Tangerine]

Part of the issue here seems to be how we compare units on different teams.

Personally I would say that even though Nino's performance against enemies might be better, her performance relative to the team can still be worse. We have to consider that Nino's team is much better at this point in time than the team at Lilina's jointime, therefore Lilina's poor performance is more excusable. Nino's team is all promoted in a game which is generally easier all around. Basically, while we might get some use out of Lilina's potshots, Nino's chip damage really does nothing for the team at this point.

If we apply the logic here to something like FE10 that has team splits, we could easily say something along the lines of Boyd>Nolan, because Boyd is better against his Part 3 enemies that Nolan does against his in Parts 1 or 3. The reason that Nolan is clearly better than Boyd despite this is because Nolan performs favorably to the rest of the Dawn Brigade (only Sothe, Volug and the Jeigans beat him), while Boyd is pretty average in comparison to the rest of the GMs.

The problem is you're not seeing how long it takes Lilina to actually develop. Her bases are absolute garbage. Nino's excellent bases are what make her no trouble to train. In an efficiency playthrough where you'll be moving as fast as possible, Lilina can NOT keep up in level because she's garbage. Nino does not have this problem. Lilina is not performing better relative to their teams because Lilina cannot do anything. Her performance is NOT excusable for this reason. On her team, you absolutely NEED good characters. On Nino's team she isn't slowing you down or hurting your team at all because they're already invincible.

Didn't didn't put the words your mouth. You said, "The only reason Lilina is that high"... Relative tier placements matter because it makes it quite clear that Lilina is better than a fair portion of the cast while Nino is hard pressed to beat out people like Karla.

Relative tier placement does not matter when they're completely subject to change. Lilina is definitely going to move down, I assure you of that.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Tangerines

[NoNameAtAll]

They both suck.

So I'll say Lugh and Pent instead.

[Rewjeo]

There's still more than an entire tier between them. So even if Lilina were to move down to Low Tier, she'd STILL be a tier and then some up on Nino.

Lilina contributes more. If we're playing as efficiently as possible while deploying both of them, Nino will literally do nothing because it's more efficient to just let everyone else go out and destroy our opponents. Lilina's potshots will give us extra kills on player phase, and eventually she'll be a positive. If we're going to seriously use both of them, Nino's team requires that you go out of your way to level her and your team gets nothing for it. Lilina's team can still function as efficiently as possible while she gets experience and in the end gets a good unit.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Slize

[Tangerine]

There's still more than an entire tier between them. So even if Lilina were to move down to Low Tier, she'd STILL be a tier and then some up on Nino.

Lilina contributes more. If we're playing as efficiently as possible while deploying both of them, Nino will literally do nothing because it's more efficient to just let everyone else go out and destroy our opponents. Lilina's potshots will give us extra kills on player phase, and eventually she'll be a positive. If we're going to seriously use both of them, Nino's team requires that you go out of your way to level her and your team gets nothing for it. Lilina's team can still function as efficiently as possible while she gets experience and in the end gets a good unit.

But you don't get a good unit -_-. If we're playing as efficiently as possible, NEITHER of them do anything because Lilina's potshots DO NOT contribute anything. The only time Lilina is even safe enough to help is when she can be completely blocked off (which is not efficient at all) or when something that can't double her is the only enemy around. She has disgusting bases and bad growths; she will never develop into a good unit in an efficient playthrough. If we're assuming both are used, Lilina loses for sucking longer. Do you have any idea what Fox and I are saying?

"Nino's team doesn't need her" is a stupid argument. Lilina's team doesn't need her either. If Lilina weren't there, they could just finish on the enemy phase or another unit could do it. That is no different than killing on the player phase. Not to mention a better unit would be getting EXP instead of her. Nino's team will not be slowed down by her, Lilina's team will. It's as simple as that.

Here are some stats for you:

Chapter 10 with a level 5 Lilina (and boy is that ever generous):

Fighters: Kill Lilina in 1 hit and double her in case they miss

Mercs: Kill Lilina in 1 hit and double her in case they miss

Pirate: Kill Lilina in 1 hit and double her in case they miss

Ballista: Kill Lilina in 1 hit

etc

etc

etc...

Lilina slows your team down by an enormous amount by actively using her. This is not efficient. Nino does not have this problem because her bases don't suck. Don't even get me started on the enemies with Hand Axes, they make Lilina even more worthless than she already is.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Tangerines

[Mekkah]

not that I really enjoy Lilina but

Fighters: Kill Lilina in 1 hit and double her in case they miss

this doesn't entirely reflect reality. Lilina has 4 base spd, and Fighters/Pirates can have anywhere between 7 and 9, very occasionally 10 for high leveled ones, but a lot of them lose like 4 AS from Steel Axes.

Doesn't mean Lilina isn't terrible though.

[Tangerine]

Yeah, I realized that most of them had Steels as their 1 range weapon after that post. Doesn't change the fact that they kill her in 1 hit though.

[Balcerzak]

And saying "BUT RANKED RUNS" doesn't mean much. The vast majority of people don't care about ranks and would much rather play an efficient game. There's a reason FE7 was the last game with Ranks in it. IS realized how pointless they were.

I'm sorry, have you ever been to GameFAQs? The site with a larger debate community than this one? The site that ONLY debates ranked? Yeah, that's why I take both efficiency AND ranks into account when discussing the overall worth of a character here. I'm not arrogant enough to ignore one because I'm uninterested in it.

Thanks Tangerines. Personally, I'm only ever insterested in ranked runs these days, and I had been floored that nobody had even mentioned it, until you did in passing.

So far in my experiences, FE7 XP rank is the most strenuous but Tactics is also very harsh, while Combat was a joke. In FE6 Combat rank was the most pressing, as Tactics was a joke and XP wasn't much harder.

Nino is almost mandatory for XP, at the expense of Combat and (if you're doing it wrong) Tactics.

Lilina is in a similar boat, helping XP at the expense of Combat.

One of these characters is clearly doing the better thing for their game's requirements.

Victory, Nino.

And maybe I'm the only one, but I'm still hoping IS brings back ranks in a future game.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Rewjeo]

Just lost my post. Dang browser.

Anyways, I'll admit that Nino wins in a ranked run. However MOST people don't particularly care about those, myself included.

Lilina's potshots don't do anything? I guess helping your other units to ORKO isn't helpful. Meanwhile Nino also needs to be walled in unless there's only one enemy nearby (unlikely), and sometimes even then. And she doesn't ever give them anything in return. Lilina eventually becomes good because, believe it or not, if we're seriously using her, we'll, y'know, have her ATTACK. And in the process of becoming good she does to some helpful things (someone doesn't want to take a counter? Lilina can weaken the enemy first) while Nino is only a negative. She also needs to be walled in as well as requiring you to intentionally sandbag your team.

Yeah, none of this "Lilina can't attack because it isn't efficient, but we can slow down and make our team significantly worse in order to use Nino!" crap.

[Tangerine]

And saying "BUT RANKED RUNS" doesn't mean much. The vast majority of people don't care about ranks and would much rather play an efficient game. There's a reason FE7 was the last game with Ranks in it. IS realized how pointless they were.

I'm sorry, have you ever been to GameFAQs? The site with a larger debate community than this one? The site that ONLY debates ranked? Yeah, that's why I take both efficiency AND ranks into account when discussing the overall worth of a character here. I'm not arrogant enough to ignore one because I'm uninterested in it.

Thanks Tangerines. Personally, I'm only ever insterested in ranked runs these days, and I had been floored that nobody had even mentioned it, until you did in passing.

So far in my experiences, FE7 XP rank is the most strenuous but Tactics is also very harsh, while Combat was a joke. In FE6 Combat rank was the most pressing, as Tactics was a joke and XP wasn't much harder.

Nino is almost mandatory for XP, at the expense of Combat and (if you're doing it wrong) Tactics.

Lilina is in a similar boat, helping XP at the expense of Combat.

One of these characters is clearly doing the better thing for their game's requirements.

Victory, Nino.

And maybe I'm the only one, but I'm still hoping IS brings back ranks in a future game.

Yeah, FE6 ranks are stupid. I believe I posted the Tactics rank/EXP numbers here when I first joined, but nobody here really cares about ranked runs so it died pretty quickly. I've been debating on GameFAQs since we started our first serious tier list; you can count on me to give credit where it's due :o!

Anyways, I'll admit that Nino wins in a ranked run. However MOST people don't particularly care about those, myself included.

I seriously have no idea where you're getting this. Like I said, GameFAQs' debate community is much larger than any other site for serious tiering and they only debate ranked. How does this translate to "most people don't care about ranked"? Seriously, you don't want to know how much tier list discussion we've had at GameFAQs. It completely and utterly dwarfs every other site. Part of the reason we're starting to tank right now. After a few years of it it just gets stale. Same goes for this site too, it seems.

Lilina's potshots don't do anything? I guess helping your other units to ORKO isn't helpful. Meanwhile Nino also needs to be walled in unless there's only one enemy nearby (unlikely), and sometimes even then. And she doesn't ever give them anything in return. Lilina eventually becomes good because, believe it or not, if we're seriously using her, we'll, y'know, have her ATTACK. And in the process of becoming good she does to some helpful things (someone doesn't want to take a counter? Lilina can weaken the enemy first) while Nino is only a negative. She also needs to be walled in as well as requiring you to intentionally sandbag your team.

Helping your other units ORKO ISN'T helpful if you need to be completely blocked off to do it. That is the LEAST efficient way to advance in the entire game, short of just standing at the starting point and hoping you win by stalling out the AI.

You still don't get it. Lilina does not eventually become good because she isn't even good at end game and she levels extremely slow because she dies in one hit, gets doubled by nearly everything, slows the team down, has weak attacks and bad accuracy if she upgrades to Thunder. Guess what, Lilina STILL dies in one-two physical hits at end game and she doesn't have the speed or luk to avoid well.

Nino does not slow the team down, Fox and I have already said this multiple times. As soon as Nino promotes (and she has absolutely no competition for the promotion item), she is ready to contribute to the team. She stops needing to be babied unpromoted after only a couple levels thanks to her great bases and growths. The crappy FE7 enemies help too.

Look at it this way: Lilina sucks for an enormous amount of time and eventually becomes an average unit, but NEVER makes up for the time she was horrible. Nino is not contributing OR detracting from the team for a long time, making her an average unit. She is bad for two-three chapters after joining and is then an average unit. Lilina is an enormous negative for much longer than Nino is.

[Florete]

I seriously have no idea where you're getting this. Like I said, GameFAQs' debate community is much larger than any other site for serious tiering and they only debate ranked. How does this translate to "most people don't care about ranked"? Seriously, you don't want to know how much tier list discussion we've had at GameFAQs. It completely and utterly dwarfs every other site. Part of the reason we're starting to tank right now. After a few years of it it just gets stale. Same goes for this site too, it seems.

Don't begin sounding elitist here. Back in the day, this forum had a very large and active debate community, much larger than what I've ever seen from GFaqs. Not really anymore as you can see, but it's relatively the same on GFaqs anyway right now. Maybe you have done more, but don't go using words like "dwarfs."

Besides, the only reason I can think of that we stopped is because our tier lists are losing discussion value as a result of everything falling into place. I know that's what happened to FE10, and FE6 and 9 feel a lot better as well. No one will be talking when there's nothing to discuss.

Also, as a response to How does this translate to "most people don't care about ranked"?, this is not GFaqs. Here, on SF, most people don't care about ranks. In fact, almost no one does, and we never have. Since we're currently talking on SF, that is how we reach such a conclusion.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

To be fair, aside from the current debate tourney (Is that even ranked?)

Yeah, what happened to you there?

[Tangerine]

I seriously have no idea where you're getting this. Like I said, GameFAQs' debate community is much larger than any other site for serious tiering and they only debate ranked. How does this translate to "most people don't care about ranked"? Seriously, you don't want to know how much tier list discussion we've had at GameFAQs. It completely and utterly dwarfs every other site. Part of the reason we're starting to tank right now. After a few years of it it just gets stale. Same goes for this site too, it seems.

Don't begin sounding elitist here. Back in the day, this forum had a very large and active debate community, much larger than what I've ever seen from GFaqs. Not really anymore as you can see, but it's relatively the same on GFaqs anyway right now. Maybe you have done more, but don't go using words like "dwarfs."

Besides, the only reason I can think of that we stopped is because our tier lists are losing discussion value as a result of everything falling into place. I know that's what happened to FE10, and FE6 and 9 feel a lot better as well. No one will be talking when there's nothing to discuss.

Also, as a response to How does this translate to "most people don't care about ranked"?, this is not GFaqs. Here, on SF, most people don't care about ranks. In fact, almost no one does, and we never have. Since we're currently talking on SF, that is how we reach such a conclusion.

I'm not being elitist, I'm proving that ranked tier lists are not forgotten and have never been irrelevant. Saying that it was larger when you first started is obvious, it works both ways. If you were here when this site's debate community was still blooming and were not present when GameFAQs' was, that is not a very accurate comparison. GameFAQs' debate community has been dead for going on two years, relatively. We've only had 8-15 active debaters over that time. I use the word "dwarf" because I have been there for most of that time and I saw how large a community it was in its prime. On a site with over two million registered members, it's common sense to assume the boards would be bigger on a new release.

Well, what's funny is that I recognize people on this site FROM GameFAQs. It doesn't matter if you don't care about ranks, they're still a part of the game and this is not a specific tier list topic, so I'm taking the two most widely accepted ways to tier characters and applying both characters to these rules. That is how we do it on GameFAQs, that's how I'm going to do it here. We don't ignore efficiency tier list rules, we just don't tier with them. I don't see why it isn't the same here, with reversed roles of course.

[Florete]

To be fair, aside from the current debate tourney (Is that even ranked?)

Yeah, what happened to you there?

I got busier than expected. The cutoff time was also earlier than I'd planned.

I seriously have no idea where you're getting this. Like I said, GameFAQs' debate community is much larger than any other site for serious tiering and they only debate ranked. How does this translate to "most people don't care about ranked"? Seriously, you don't want to know how much tier list discussion we've had at GameFAQs. It completely and utterly dwarfs every other site. Part of the reason we're starting to tank right now. After a few years of it it just gets stale. Same goes for this site too, it seems.

Don't begin sounding elitist here. Back in the day, this forum had a very large and active debate community, much larger than what I've ever seen from GFaqs. Not really anymore as you can see, but it's relatively the same on GFaqs anyway right now. Maybe you have done more, but don't go using words like "dwarfs."

Besides, the only reason I can think of that we stopped is because our tier lists are losing discussion value as a result of everything falling into place. I know that's what happened to FE10, and FE6 and 9 feel a lot better as well. No one will be talking when there's nothing to discuss.

Also, as a response to How does this translate to "most people don't care about ranked"?, this is not GFaqs. Here, on SF, most people don't care about ranks. In fact, almost no one does, and we never have. Since we're currently talking on SF, that is how we reach such a conclusion.

I'm not being elitist, I'm proving that ranked tier lists are not forgotten and have never been irrelevant. Saying that it was larger when you first started is obvious, it works both ways. If you were here when this site's debate community was still blooming and were not present when GameFAQs' was, that is not a very accurate comparison. GameFAQs' debate community has been dead for going on two years, relatively. We've only had 8-15 active debaters over that time. I use the word "dwarf" because I have been there for most of that time and I saw how large a community it was in its prime. On a site with over two million registered members, it's common sense to assume the boards would be bigger on a new release.

Well, what's funny is that I recognize people on this site FROM GameFAQs. It doesn't matter if you don't care about ranks, they're still a part of the game and this is not a specific tier list topic, so I'm taking the two most widely accepted ways to tier characters and applying both characters to these rules. That is how we do it on GameFAQs, that's how I'm going to do it here. We don't ignore efficiency tier list rules, we just don't tier with them. I don't see why it isn't the same here, with reversed roles of course.

I'm fine with you mentioning ranks here, I never said you weren't allowed. I'm just trying to make sure you don't start saying things like "lol GFaqs says this and we're better than you so listen," and what you've been saying is starting to sound dangerously close to that.

At the same time, it's true no one should be blowing off ranks either, though he did admit that Nino wins in a ranked run anyway. It's also true that most people on this site don't care about ranks, so don't expect most people to care about the points you make regarding ranks. It's just like when I posted the unranked list on the FE6 board. 85% of the discussion was on why it existed in the first place. Different boards have different ideas. Don't go getting offended because one board doesn't share yours.

And I've been at this forum since it opened, I was here when the debate community started up and as it kept going. I, just like you at GFaqs, saw how large a community this was in its prime.