Best/ worst Lord in FE 6,7,8

[Ansem]

Being good in Eliwood Mode doesn't make him better, Ephraim is still great in Hard Mode, that's why he is better.

- He doubles reliably

- His offense is great

- His growths are better

- His Defense is reliable

Hector is just all Str and Def, his Hit isn't bad, of course, but his Spd is rather below average, especially when it comes to Hector Hard Mode, unit's performance is best qualified on how well it does when the game offers all it has. Yeah, like RedFox told me

Don't need any speed if the only people who can double you are swordmasters

And they cant even scratch him

[Just call me AL]

@Oliver X Renning: You forgot that Lyn does receive Def bonuses as well by supporting the other support options you mentioned. (Actually all of her supports give her Def bonuses except for Wil and Rath, both of whom she doesn't want anyway.)

And you got the support bonuses wrong. It's actually +10 AVO, +2.5 Def, +20 CRT, and 3.5 ATK.

As for the Heaven Seals, you get one from Pent, and another from Queen Hellene.

[Junkhead]

Don't need any speed if the only people who can double you are swordmasters

And they cant even scratch him

Oh, so not doubling and not always hitting is good? Is that better than Ephraim? Especially when Ephraim CAN double swordmasters even when it comes to his Hard Mode?

And there's also Nomadic Troopers.

[Inui]

I've done this before and I'll do it again: I question the viability of Roy supporting Alan and Lance, at least after the first few maps. Once the two build support with each other, they'll be capable of running off and doing their own thing, not wanting to stick with Roy and his pitiful 5 move (especially when they promote and he's still level capped). As for Lyn's durability, it's not as bad as you make it sound. She has a lot of natural avoid and access to Lancereavers and Bows. I don't care if Roy's weapon is broken when he only has it for a few maps and the rest of the team is still largely capable anyway.

In FE 7, Tactics is the gay rank. In FE 6? It's not Tactics anymore. FE 6 is more lenient with Tactics, meaning the Paladins moving at Roy's pace doesn't hurt so much. Roy must be escorted to the throne/gate in every single chapter, and who's better to do that than two top tiers that support him?

Roy has the option to receive insanely good support bonuses. Lyn does not, no matter who she chooses, because her affinity blows.

Let's analyze them further.

Lyn joins in Chapter 16 and has to go through lances and swords. Then in the next chapters...more lances and bows, and only mounted units are of any real worth after that early part. Port of Badon...all axes, but are you really bringing her when she doesn't need that EXP due to her late promotion? Then it's all magic, swords, lances...pretty much forever. She never has a period of "wow, I'm raping and I'm useful" at all in her game.

Roy has an earlygame period of time where he's awesome. He's very durable after gaining a few levels and his support bonuses. In the first 10 or so chapters, you often want to stay clumped together to prevent being surrounded and to get needed bonuses. Marcus is the only unit that can ignore that and do whatever he wants. Roy is an amazing character until Chapter 13, when Wyverns start existing and Cavaliers becoming more common.

Let's compare at around that Chapter 13 time, and count that as around Chapter 20 or so of Lyn's game, since it's at about the same point.

Roy: 13/0 Lord

HP: 27.6

Str: 9.8

Skl: 11.0

Spd: 11.8

Lck: 14.2

Def: 8.0

Res: 3.6

Can get +20 Evd, +15 Crit, +4 Atk, and +1 Def/Res from B Lance/B Alan.

Base durability: 27.6 HP, 8 Def, 3.6 Res, 37.8 Evd (weapons have less Hit in his game, btw)

Lyn: 13/0 Lord

HP: 24.4

Str: 8.8

Skl: 14.2

Spd: 16.2

Lck: 11.6

Def: 4.4

Res: 3.6

Can get +5 Evd, +2 Def/Res, +5 Atk, and +20 Crit from A Florina/B Kent

Base durability: 24.4 HP, 4.4 Def, 3.6 Res, 44.0 Evd

Unless you want to harp about a base Evd win of less than 7, Roy is absolutely slaughtering her in durability. He wins concrete stats due to HP/Def wins that add up to a lot and then he has the option to obtain +20 Evd and +1 Def/Res vs +5 Evd and +2 Def/Res. Also, Lyn's support situation is significantly worse than Roy's. Roy gets to use and give his bonuses early on for a long time and he supports top tier. Florina's use is questionable and Lyn's ability to stay near her supporters is even worse given her durability and not being fielded in every chapter like Roy always is.

@Bolded: Lyn is not Dart.

The Heaven Seal has a large value, just like the Ocean Seal. It detracts from Funds to use it.

Lyn receives AVO bonuses from supports with Kent, Hector, Eliwood, and gets a DEF bonus from Florina. I have NO idea why you think she can't get AVO from her supports. And getting a B with Eliwood/Hector and a C with Florina, she gets +10 AVO, +1.5 DEF, +15 CRIT, and +2.5 ATK.

See above. 5 Evd isn't doing much. Roy slaughters her in every area but Atk Spd and Hit, and neither miss or get doubled.

Eliwood does not want to support her. Ever. EVER. Eliwood x Hector could be done and at an A before Lyn even joins and Lowen and Marcus can be at a C or B and give him much better bonuses. Why would Eliwood wait to support the worst affinity in the game on a medicore character when he can support top tier for a long time and get way better bonuses?

Roy also has rather bad supports with SEVERAL bad characters outside of Lance/Allen.

This doesn't matter because he always gets Alan and Lance. They want him. He wants them. Pretty simple. Outside of that, he can snag a C with Marcus for the earlygame to extend Marcus's usefulness and make them both pretty much invincible early on, or he can wait to fill his last slot with Lalum, Cecilia, Lilina, and a plethora of other units. Roy's support situation is great.

And Roy/Lyn both share durability issues later on; in fact, Roy keep shaving issues until he promotes late and even THEN, the ONLY reason he is good is because of SoS.

Roy doesn't have durability issues due to massive Evd from supports and decent HP/Def. Lyn loses to him badly in durability.

Who cares if it's the SoS that makes Roy good? The only reason Lyn isn't absolute bottom tier is the Mani Katti, since everything else about her sucks.

And Lyn, at the earliest, can promote at 24.

26. Hop off of Eliwood normal mode and maybe you'll get better.

AND YOU GET TWO HEAVEN SEALS FOR FREE YOU DOLT, one from Hawkeye and the other from Pent. So yeah, you're an idiot.

Did you know that holding onto the item and not using it adds a massive amount of cash to your Funds rank, and then using the item detracts that amount from your Funds rank? It doesn't matter if it's free. Using it hurts Funds. You're ignorant.

Roy promotes for free.

And Lyn does actually fight plenty of axe-users throughout her earlygame as well as in Eliwood/Hector parts as well, and even when she doesn't have the advantage, she'll double FUCKING EVERYTHING anyway and has Mani Katti, which is probably the best non-legendary weapon in the game. Insane critical bonus plus boost against horses and armors, the few classes that give Lyn problems? Yes plz.

Nobody cares about Lyn's mode. It's not considered for HHM tier lists and never debated...because anyone can take out the garbage. Lyn is facing WTDA or WTN for most of the game in HHM.

Roy < Lyn, for sure. And if you know what you are talking about.

Nope. I just proved that wrong.

And for the record, just because Roy is supported by Top Tier characters does NOT make HIM better. By that logic, we should say Lyn is better since she is supported by Florina and Hector. OHWAI-

They don't want to support her. Lance and Alan want Roy.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[CATS]

Um, Eph Route Ephraim is the one with a case for most broken unit ever, not whatever incarnation of Hector. Hector still has flaws even without a late promotion, his promo item costs twice the normal value on Eliwood Mode, he has Spd issues for a good while and Hit issues early on, and he still only has 5 move later in the game. Ephraim excels at everything forever, his Prf weapon is better with more uses and the ability to more consistently OHKO enemies (thanks to tripled Mt on effective weapons in FE8 as opposed to double in FE7), he gets an absurdly powerful Prf legendary weapon for the lategame, his promotion is free, and he never has poor mobility. Ephraim kicks the shit out of any other GBA lords.

On the other side of the coin, Lyn is ugly as hell and sucks ass.

Roy does get second place, but he's still clearly better than Lyn. Move gap is a terrible reason for him to not support Alan/Lance, this is FE6, enemies are tough and don't get instantly raped in one round on the counter. You can't blow through the maps nearly as easily as in FE7 or 8; Alan and Lance have to actually stop and spend a turn or two engaging a group of enemies before moving on, as opposed to the easier games where mounted units rush ahead, rape everything on counter, rush ahead again, and repeat. Roy has no trouble keeping up. On large maps with empty sections where units use the full extent of their move for multiple turns, Roy can be rescued by a Cav, still builds supports while rescued, and is often the highest priority for rescuing since he's the one that has to seize and thus getting him ahead is most important for minimizing your turn count.

More importantly Roy never consumes a deployment slot. He also is actually useful in combat during early and late sections of the game, he fizzles out for a time while waiting for his promo, but he is still useful at some points. Lyn is never useful and isn't even required. She's only like half a lord anyways.

[Blutritter]

Roy is hardly durable against horsemen, flyers (definitely wyverns) and the even speedier enemies.

The Sword of Seals is good, not Roy......that is, if you consider a legendary weapon you need to repair before long if you want Roy to be of any use to be worth a whole lot. Roy starts out with copious doubling and if not, one-rounding issues on ch. 22 because he's only 20/1 while the rest of the team is in all likelihood well into the second half of their promoted levels and creaming him all over in stats. So he has to be babied in part even with the Sword of Seals.

[Inui]

I love CATS/WJC, lol. Good stuff. I agree entirely.

[CATS]

Roy is hardly durable against horsemen, flyers (definitely wyverns) and the even speedier enemies.

The Sword of Seals is good, not Roy......that is, if you consider a legendary weapon you need to repair before long if you want Roy to be of any use to be worth a whole lot. Roy starts out with copious doubling and if not, one-rounding issues on ch. 22 because he's only 20/1 while the rest of the team is in all likelihood well into the second half of their promoted levels and creaming him all over in stats. So he has to be babied in part even with the Sword of Seals.

Roy may not be durable, but regardless of what Roy's durability is, Lyn is less durable than him. Her defensive stats are much lower. There is no argument against it.

The Sword of Seals is good, not Roy? That's like saying the Mani Katti is good, not Lyn. Should we start making tier lists that rank weapons instead of characters? Reginleif for Seth tier imo.

Back to actual character discussion, Roy getting a stupid uber weapon with few uses is much better than Lyn never getting a stupid uber weapon at all.

[Inui]

The Hammerne is best reserved to repair the SoS at least once, anyways.

Even if Roy promotes super late, he still has wtfh4x support bonuses from B Lance/B Alan/C someone to make him good anyways. +25 Evd and +4-5 Atk ftw.

[CATS]

People act like Roy is the only one with a late promotion. Lyn's promotion is almost as late as Hector's. You either have to promote her in NoF, or not use Eliwood/make Eliwood wait to promote (which sucks and is bullshit). She's only promoted two chapters sooner than Hector.

[Rewjeo]

Obviously you'd be comparing Hector to Eph route Ephraim, not averaging both routes. That just doesn't make sense.

Why? There's no reason to asssume that we're always going Ephraim's route. Although I guess averaging isn't the best method. Still, assuming best case scenario for Ephraim all the time doesn't make much sense.

[Inui]

Ephraim is better than Hector even on Eirik's route.

[dondon151]

ATTN Inui: we've long moved past debating FE games on the basis of ranks. So no one accounts for FE6 having a very lenient tactics requirement.

[Florete]

ATTN Inui: we've long moved past debating FE games on the basis of ranks. So no one accounts for FE6 having a very lenient tactics requirement.

We have, here at SF. If you (Inui) still want to discuss ranks, GFaqs still bases everything off them.

Of course, no one is going to stop you from bringing ranks up, that's fine, but most people won't respond in kind. I will get to your post later, since I definitely have more than one bone to pick with it but it will take more research than I feel like doing at the moment.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[The Divine Swordmaster]

Um, Eph Route Ephraim is the one with a case for most broken unit ever, not whatever incarnation of Hector. Hector still has flaws even without a late promotion, his promo item costs twice the normal value on Eliwood Mode, he has Spd issues for a good while and Hit issues early on, and he still only has 5 move later in the game. Ephraim excels at everything forever, his Prf weapon is better with more uses and the ability to more consistently OHKO enemies (thanks to tripled Mt on effective weapons in FE8 as opposed to double in FE7), he gets an absurdly powerful Prf legendary weapon for the lategame, his promotion is free, and he never has poor mobility. Ephraim kicks the shit out of any other GBA lords.

On the other side of the coin, Lyn is ugly as hell and sucks ass.

Roy does get second place, but he's still clearly better than Lyn. Move gap is a terrible reason for him to not support Alan/Lance, this is FE6, enemies are tough and don't get instantly raped in one round on the counter. You can't blow through the maps nearly as easily as in FE7 or 8; Alan and Lance have to actually stop and spend a turn or two engaging a group of enemies before moving on, as opposed to the easier games where mounted units rush ahead, rape everything on counter, rush ahead again, and repeat. Roy has no trouble keeping up. On large maps with empty sections where units use the full extent of their move for multiple turns, Roy can be rescued by a Cav, still builds supports while rescued, and is often the highest priority for rescuing since he's the one that has to seize and thus getting him ahead is most important for minimizing your turn count.

More importantly Roy never consumes a deployment slot. He also is actually useful in combat during early and late sections of the game, he fizzles out for a time while waiting for his promo, but he is still useful at some points. Lyn is never useful and isn't even required. She's only like half a lord anyways.

So we criple the combats abilites of one of the cavs for a Roy support?

[Candlejack]

Funds rank? In MY FE7?

In MY FE7 where you get Matthew and Silver Card?

Funds rank is a problem in MY FE7?

[Inui]

Tactics rank = being efficient with turns. What is the difference?

The game itself gives you ranks. You think "moving on" from them puts you in some higher tier of FE debating or something? It merely takes being cost efficient and throws it out the window while leaving more room for abuse even if you say "don't abuse."

[Florete]

Inui, you won't be able to convince us that ranks are the proper way to go. I'm just saying it as it is; people here largely don't care about ranks. We've been over this many times before and have lived by it for quite some time now.

It merely takes being cost efficient and throws it out the window

Please elaborate.

leaving more room for abuse even if you say "don't abuse."

No, and I don't see how you can come to that conclusion after all that's been said. (Wtf @ "Don't abuse = more abuse")

[Dat Nick]

im fine with ranks being considered

It's people who still hold to them like they're the only thing that matters is what irritates me. Rankings were ditched for a reason because like all of them except for tactics were contradictory, it cannot be assumed people will follow those restraints every time. Furthermore, ranked FE4 anyone? You know, the one where you have to RNG abuse? Fuck considering FE4 ranked at all.

also in b4 f5 stupid stupid stupid

In fact, I'll ask Mekkah to make seperate ranked tier lists for 6&7 on FEG right now.

[Inui]

Inui, you won't be able to convince us that ranks are the proper way to go. I'm just saying it as it is; people here largely don't care about ranks. We've been over this many times before and have lived by it for quite some time now.

I don't need to convince you to abide by the rankings the games provide to argue about turn efficiency or make a case for cost efficiency. I abide by the Tactics rank. You don't. In the end, what's the difference? Almost nothing, brah.

Please elaborate.

If you don't count the Funds rank, it means you can just have 0 Gold all the time by spending it all on expensive weapons and spamming them. You can S rank Funds without damaging the "efficiency" you speak of without hoarding stat items. Using less money is better even without counting that rank because allows use of more weapons and allows you to convert promotional items into gold.

No, and I don't see how you can come to that conclusion after all that's been said. (Wtf @ "Don't abuse = more abuse")

Without a Tactics rank, you can make arguments for sitting and waiting a few turns per chapter for supports and use the arena a bit and stuff like that. That's not "abuse" in my mind. "Abuse" is relative to each person. The Tactics rank, however, is not. It is a concrete number the game provides that makes sense.

The only rank I see as gay and pointless is Experience. All of the other ones make perfect sense in terms of the efficiency you speak of.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

I don't need to convince you to abide by the rankings the games provide to argue about turn efficiency or make a case for cost efficiency. I abide by the Tactics rank. You don't. In the end, what's the difference? Almost nothing, brah.

In the end, the difference is that almost no one here will care about the arguments you make. It's kind of hard to discuss something when you aren't on the same topic as anyone else.

Using less money is better even without counting that rank because allows use of more weapons and allows you to convert promotional items into gold.

Then that's what we do. By our standards, the money is simply used in the best way possible. What did you think we were doing? Blowing all our cash A.S.A.P. on crack and whores? We assume the player is not an idiot.

Without a Tactics rank, you can make arguments for sitting and waiting a few turns per chapter for supports and use the arena a bit and stuff like that. That's not "abuse" in my mind. "Abuse" is relative to each person. The Tactics rank, however, is not. It is a concrete number the game provides that makes sense.

No, you can't. Why not? Because we said so. We made it a rule, just like you follow ranks as your rules. Characters who help beat the game faster are ranked higher, so a character that needs 10 extra turns is obviously not going to be as good.

[Dat Nick]

Using less money is better even without counting that rank because allows use of more weapons and allows you to convert promotional items into gold.

In a completely "theory-FE" stance, let's assume units cannot promote at 21 in FE9, and that the amount of seals you get is doubled.

Now, are you going to sell all the seals and use only prepromotes for more money that you can't do anything with, or are you actually going to not be stiny and use your seals?

It's a hyperbole, but it is a point to be made, especially so in FE6. I love how you keep not addressing gems and superflous stat boosters, btw.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Inui]

What if one argues for those 10 extra turns creating something way better?

Say you argue for 10 turns of support abuse for Harken and Isadora so they have can have an A instead of B and rape Cog of Destiny. Such an argument can easily be made because your only rule is "don't abuse" which can vary from one person to another and is opinion-based. There are waaaaay too many different arguments you can make based on "don't abuse" that are just really gay. Trying to blast through as quickly as possible would even weaken your team quite a bit. Might as well spam Marcus forever, huh?

The Tactics rank is not opinion-based. I see no room for silly arguments if you abide by it.

I no longer have a desire to continue this debate. Neither of us will budge on our positions.

In the end, we both value efficiency, just by a different number for Tactics and Funds.

It's a hyperbole, but it is a point to be made, especially so in FE6. I love how you keep not addressing gems and superflous stat boosters, btw.

Use the stat boosters and sell the gems for cash. I'm not saying to adhere strictly to the Funds rank. The Experience rank is gay and I don't care for it and the Funds rank itself is kinda gay, but being cost efficient is not.

Tactics, Combat, and Survival are the ranks the game provides that make 100% perfect sense and don't leave room for silly arguments like "don't abuse" does.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Inui

[CATS]

So we criple the combats abilites of one of the cavs for a Roy support?

I assume you're referring to rescuing Roy. When there's no enemies in the way and an open stretch of the map, yes, because the Cavs do not need their combat abilities on such a turn, and it is important to keep Roy moving towards the throne as fast as possible in order to minimize turncount. The fact that this happens to allow him to keep building support is a convenient side effect and another reason to do it..

Edited February 2, 2010 by CATS

[Florete]

What if one argues for those 10 extra turns creating something way better?

Say you argue for 10 turns of support abuse for Harken and Isadora so they have can have an A instead of B and rape Cog of Destiny. Such an argument can easily be made because your only rule is "don't abuse" which can vary from one person to another and is opinion-based. There are waaaaay too many different arguments you can make based on "don't abuse" that are just really gay. Trying to blast through as quickly as possible would even weaken your team quite a bit. Might as well spam Marcus forever, huh?

The mistake you're making here is that you're assuming "don't abuse" is our only rule. Want me to try to find all the discussions about opportunity costs we've gone through? 10 turns of support abuse for Harken and Isadora can be easily shot down.