[OUTDATED] Elibian Nights

[Celice]

When the sprite was created, it was purple. It shifted to the golden orange in the next game. "First" means the sprite which existed before the sprite used in FE7.

As for your Lowen, all he's done is gone to the armory and got the tackiest coloured armour he could find and chucked it on, which is the same colour as his hair, he probably decided to do this either for lols, or to distract people from the fact his hair is still hanging over his face.

It's not just this mushy-haired knight either. Numerous sprites don't look like anything more than edits. A grasp of age isn't there.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Celice

[Crimson Red]

Woah woah woah

more important than anything else, you call Marcus' FE7 armor BROWN? Orange is reasonable but his armor is clearly in the "salmon" category (given that there are different shades, i.e. light salmon, dark salmon, etc.). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_%28color%29

It's all about the small and pointless things in life :D

[NICKT™]

When the sprite was created, it was purple. It shifted to the golden orange in the next game. "First" means the sprite which existed before the sprite used in FE7.

That's what I meant, my bad. Thanks Celice.

[Arch]

The point was, changing your armor color isn't unheard of. It's been three years since the end of FE7 (Marcus, whom you cite, had 20 years to age); he donned new armor, grew a little bit of facial hair and kept his character-definitive hairdo. I have no personal complaints about the sprite, because I feel it's completely an appropriate aging of the character.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Arch

[Caliban of Sycorax]

It depends on how old Lowen was in FE7. If he's late teens/early 20's he's not gonna age much. If he was earlier teens I'd say yeah, he should age some more.

[Celice]

It's not wholly a matter of whether his physical features are going to change. It's a matter that an aged Lowen is apparently just a new set of armor. It's not a drawn to match a new time and place--it's a brute foot-in of the last sprite trying to be passed as a new one.

Give Bartre a new shirt and change little else, then call him older. A stone-image of his past self, with a new shirt.

[Aethereal]

It depends on how old Lowen was in FE7. If he's late teens/early 20's he's not gonna age much. If he was earlier teens I'd say yeah, he should age some more.

I've always looked at him as at least being 17. Sain and Kent are guessed to be in their 20s, and they don't seem particularly older. That being the case, I know a lot of people who look basically the same as they do when they went from their late teens to early twenties.

[Arch]

Celice, I feel like the new chin hair and the new armor (which is considerably bulkier than his last set, showing physical growth) show his age adequately. He was late teens in FE7, probably now 20-21, and thus he shouldn't have changed that much.

[Celice]

Celice, I feel like the new chin hair and the new armor (which is considerably bulkier than his last set, showing physical growth) show his age adequately. He was late teens in FE7, probably now 20-21, and thus he shouldn't have changed that much.

dats coo'

[NICKT™]

Three years is a long time, you'd be surprised at how long it would be if you did nothing but sit there, so in the end, it's not nothing. Plus, I doubt Lowen wouldn't have changed in any way, that's one thing that I hate about movies, tv shows, cartoons, video games etc, is that the characters never develop. Look at the faces between the two Karel's, I'm not sure if it's just me, but the one from FE6 looks a lot less "I'm gonna kill you if you don't get out of my way", where as your Lowen just seems to be the exact same one, as if he had just gotten out of a time portal and donned the latest armour. Why can't he have a different facial angle? A different hair do?

You're shooting your creativity in the foot, you have so much open potential, possibly more so than the programmers since they had to slave themselves with the engine, etc, and yet here you are, setting yourself short. It's sad.

[shadowofchaos]

Ninian with boots would be sexya valuable utility.

Hey hey hey. Watch it there. That woman belongs to no one but Eliwood.

As for the other topic.

I personally have no problem with the "color choice" for the armor. There's no law saying that they have to make use of all 16 colors on the sprite, right? I mean, look at Pi's sprite that looks like MASTER FREAKING ASIA on Lyn's tale.

What are you idiots talking about Lowen's sprite for? What you should be focusing on is that Lowen doesn't deserve Rebecca. *Shot for shipping comment*

Arch, that ASM routine decreasing supports offer still stands.

And in all seriousness... I'm feeling like this is gonna be kinda like the FE12 translation thread... where focus is... a little misdirected.

[Arch]

You're shooting your creativity in the foot, you have so much open potential, possibly more so than the programmers since they had to slave themselves with the engine, etc, and yet here you are, setting yourself short. It's sad.

Shut up, will ya? It's one sprite in the entire game, and suddenly I'm not being creative, I'm boxing myself in and doing poor work. You're being utterly silly, Nickt.

To your points: Karel's face expression because his character changed, your point there moot. Lowen hasn't changed in the way Karel did, and he has gone through 3 years of growth, not 20 like the gap between 7 and 6. The hairdo is Lowen's signature point of his appearance, taking that away just wouldn't feel right. Could you imagine seeing Lowen's eyes? It just wouldn't be Lowen anymore with a clean-cut 'do.

Now, why is Lowen not totally redrawn? I'm realistic fellow with realistic expectations. I don't have a huge art division devoted to completely redrawing every character in a cast of 50+. My apologies for not being a slave-driver, but I have down-to-earth expectations and would like to make a project that, ya know, might actually be completed someday. I like being reasonable in my requests since, after all, the artists are doing me the favor, not the other way around. I asked for an aged Lowen, I got a perfectly adequate Lowen mug that met all of my expectations.

With that out of the way, can we please stop being so absurd?

[NICKT™]

I personally have no problem with the "color choice" for the armor. There's no law saying that they have to make use of all 16 colors on the sprite, right?

This argument only really works if the colours worked and were used well, incredibly well and did not require any more of the 16 colours. But as it stands, Lowen could use more colours, it's as simple as that. Even if it's just for aesthetic purposes, as having a person who is wearing green, orange and then green on top looks a little ridiculous, especially when that poor excuse for a colour green is used both for hair and armour. Personally, when I use hair and armour that are the same colour, I try to vary it a bit, maybe by using only the darker two shades of hair, so it appears darker, or using two shades from hair and adding a third, so it's kind of like a new colour, but only one new shade, taking full use of the colour palette.

Don't get me wrong though, it's not a bad sprite, it's just the hairstyle seems like it's pulling at straws way too much, by then, he'd definitely would have gone through a style change, along with the colouring.

And in all seriousness... I'm feeling like this is gonna be kinda like the FE12 translation thread... where focus is... a little misdirected.

If graphics are a misdirection, then why was so much effort put into them in the first place? Why not just use the ones from FE7/6, or better yet, I have an idea, if graphics don't matter that much, and are a misdirection, then just use this for Lowen;

At least he'll look older and make use of all the available colours.

Come on, if graphics didn't matter and were a misdirection, then Call of Duty and Skyrim(etc) would still be looking something like this;

http://www.onlytoptens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-10-retro-games-goldeneye.jpg

Edited December 1, 2011 by 暁

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i don't see what the big deal is, this Lowen that is in the game looks like Lowen in the original game but abit older, therefore its perfectly valid.

[FalconVegeta1986]

Didn't some new guy just post this in his topic not too long ago?

[NICKT™]

A different outfit + facial hair does not equal 'older'.

Three years, do you really think that all is gonna change is some facial hair and clothes? If he's going to grow facial hair, instead of shaving, then that would mean he felt like a change, right? Why wouldn't the same thought be applied to the hair on his head instead/as well?

Didn't some new guy just post this in his topic not too long ago?

Quite so indeed.

Edited December 1, 2011 by 暁

[Arch]

It's. His. Signature. Hairdo. Let's give Cloud Strife a buzzcut in the next Final Fantasy, shall we?

[NICKT™]

In actuality, they did change Cloud's hair from FF7 to Advent Children and also his outfit isn't the same colour as his hair, and he's gone through major personality changes. In the most basic of understanding, it doesn't and will not seem like he just came out from one and into the other, his character in total gives the impression that there was time between them, where as your Lowen doesn't give off that same impression.

(and on a side note, Lowen is NOT Cloud, by any means. So that's a poor comparison.)

Your Lowen looks like he had just been apart of the fight against Nergal yesterday. He broke his armour and was depressed so he didn't feel like shaving and had to beg Markus to allow him to get new armour, upset with Lowen, Markus decides to punish Lowen by giving him a ridiculously coloured suit of armour.

Edited December 1, 2011 by 暁

[The Blind Archer]

For crap's sake, Nickt, this ain't YOUR project. So what if his portrait doesn't use all 15 available colors? Does Kishuna ring any bells? Or how about most NPCs or Fighters? And dare I mention Anna? But, I digress...

If graphics are a misdirection, then why was so much effort put into them in the first place?

Two words: Why not?

Have you seen how many hacks people make that take place in existing worlds? It's so they don't have to create many new characters and settings; they get to lazy their way out by just recycling whatever's already available like Corrupt Theocracy. How many Elibe projects are there that don't involve the Black Fang, Nergal, Athos, or Renault in some form? Hard Mode: Mage Knight 404's hack doesn't count due to being strictly a fanservice/crossover hack. And even then, most returning characters receive no updates. The fact that Arch is having designs updated alone sets this project apart from every other ctrl+c/ctrl+p hack out there. And that's before you consider all of the programming involved in changing FE7 from it's vanilla form to what it has become.

I have an idea, if graphics don't matter that much, and are a misdirection, then just use this for Lowen;

At least he'll look older and make use of all the available colours.

Come on, if graphics didn't matter and were a misdirection, then Call of Duty and Skyrim(etc) would still be looking something like this;

http://www.onlytoptens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/top-10-retro-games-goldeneye.jpg

Oh boy, I love these all-or-nothing arguments. They pretty much boil down to "I love steak, but I can't eat it raw so I'll have it well done and dripping with sauce and spices". What, there can't be any middle ground? No in between? He can't order his t-bone medium-rare with just a little lemon pepper? Does he either have to use Lowen as he was or replace him with something entirely different? Does he HAVE to use all available color slots just because they're there? The answer is simple: no, he doesn't. It's his damn project. Nothing has to get a complete overhaul, touch every edge of the hack box, and use all fifteen colors. As far as aging, it's an anime game. Apart from subtleties, at most, anime aging generally stops around the early 20's at latest, and doesn't rear it's ugly head until about 35. Can't wait to be told I'm not allowed to exaggerate. And consider the following: He won't physically change as much in what has been established as a three year gap.

Here's what I think about the sprite. He looks like his class, the shading and detail is well executed, it's within the limits set by GBA, and yet it's still immediately recognizable as the character we all know as Lowen. It works. That's all that matters.

But whatever, I've said my piece. Keep arguing if you want.

And I'm loling hard at you using Call of Duty of all things as an argument for graphical updates in a video game

Edited December 1, 2011 by The Blind Archer

[Arch]

Random update time.

Getting progress on having all the achievements functioning (going through them all one by one as I rebuild the game to test and make sure everything's 100% spot-on working). Tale 1's also completely rebuilt, so now I get to start importing the other chapters and working on the new Tale 4.

[NICKT™]

For crap's sake, Nickt, this ain't YOUR project. So what if his portrait doesn't use all 15 available colors? Does Kishuna ring any bells? Or how about most NPCs or Fighters? And dare I mention Anna? But, I digress...

I never said it was MY project, but that point doesn't matter at all, so just because it isn't my project means I can't have an opinion? So somehow, people aren't able to comment on something on how it could potentially be better or just comment in general because it's not in their possession and they don't outright own it? That's balls man, big red balls.

Come on Dei, I didn't think you were so stupid, Kishuna doesn't show any hair, so that scratches off the need for 3-4 colours, you can't see his eyes either, eliminating more of a need for varied colours. And if you look, it doesn't re-use a colour for any different section, and it looks smooth and well made.

As for NPC's, of course minor characters are going to recieve less of attention than other major characters, the same applies to generic enemies and bosses. As for fighters, I'm assuming you mean Dorcas and the sort, and if you look at Bartre and Dorcas from FE7, they don't use the hair colour for the clothing or vice-versa. Neither do the fighters from FE6, or FE8. Dorcas and Bartre from FE7 have three different parts which use three different colours, unlike Lowen who has the same amount of parts(not including the shirt under the shirt), and yet re-uses the hair, so obviously as well.

As for Anna, like I mentioned earlier;

Personally, when I use hair and armour that are the same colour, I try to vary it a bit, maybe by using only the darker two shades of hair, so it appears darker, or using two shades from hair and adding a third, so it's kind of like a new colour, but only one new shade, taking full use of the colour palette.

Take a look at FE6/8 Anna(I say them too cause I don't have a FE7 Anna on my sheet.), the red on the shirt is darker than the hair.

Two words: Why not?

Have you seen how many hacks people make that take place in existing worlds? It's so they don't have to create many new characters and settings; they get to lazy their way out by just recycling whatever's already available like Corrupt Theocracy. How many Elibe projects are there that don't involve the Black Fang, Nergal, Athos, or Renault in some form? Hard Mode: Mage Knight 404's hack doesn't count due to being strictly a fanservice/crossover hack. And even then, most returning characters receive no updates. The fact that Arch is having designs updated alone sets this project apart from every other ctrl+c/ctrl+p hack out there. And that's before you consider all of the programming involved in changing FE7 from it's vanilla form to what it has become.

Oh, so other people do shitty jobs, that gives me an excuse to do a next to shitty job and it's ok? Come on, really? You're grasping at thin air, and falling over and tumbling down a cliff face. Just because other people are lazy and lack imagination, etc, doesn't mean that anyone else has to half-arse it. Why settle for a lower standard because everywhere you look all you see is crap?

Also, I was only commenting on the graphics, one mug, that was it. I didn't mention any of the gameplay features, which mind you I think are impressive considering the original, but that wasn't what I was talking about, was it? Besides, it doesn't matter how well something works, if it doesn't look good, then all in all, it's crap.

Oh boy, I love these all-or-nothing arguments. They pretty much boil down to "I love steak, but I can't eat it raw so I'll have it well done and dripping with sauce and spices". What, there can't be any middle ground? No in between? He can't order his t-bone medium-rare with just a little lemon pepper? Does he either have to use Lowen as he was or replace him with something entirely different? Does he HAVE to use all available color slots just because they're there? The answer is simple: no, he doesn't. It's his damn project. Nothing has to get a complete overhaul, touch every edge of the hack box, and use all fifteen colors. As far as aging, it's an anime game. Apart from subtleties, at most, anime aging generally stops around the early 20's at latest, and doesn't rear it's ugly head until about 35. Can't wait to be told I'm not allowed to exaggerate. And consider the following: He won't physically change as much in what has been established as a three year gap.

It wasn't an all-or-nothing argument, it was simply me poking fun at the fact that people assumed that graphics don't have any major part in a production. Also, I never said there couldn't be middle ground, all I offered was my opinion, and since that comment, all I've been doing is offering reasoning for my argument and opinion, don't make it out like it was a do or die situation, it wasn't. At least, I never intended it to be.

I never said he had to use all the available colour slots, I simply said that he should have made better use of them. Also, I was never against his aging, yeah, in three years, people won't age all that much to be heavily and easily recognizable, it was more the fact that his hair remained exactly the same, and that it was a poor choice of colour in the armour, those were my two problems with the mug, and those two problems were my opinion, and just an opinion.

And I'm loling hard at you using Call of Duty of all things as an argument for graphical updates in a video game

It was the first thing that came to mind when I tried to think of a game that a lot of other people played. *shrug*

[Aethereal]

Wait, I'm confused on the aging bit. Changing his haircut is taking away the only physical distinguishing feature we have on the guy. Not only that, it's a very unique one, there aren't any other FE characters that I'm aware of that have hair anything like that. Changing that seems like you're changing Lowen entirely.

As far as facial expression, what would you change Lowen's expression too? The dude's an insecure but determined soldier, who's a bit awkward. That odd frown is a fitting default expression. I don't think either of these two factors would change in the course of 3 years, and while some people develop and change a lot from their late teens to early twenties, Lowen does not seem like the type that might. He's perfectly mature as is, so a more mature demeanor isn't necessary, He's also not some one to have gone through some sort of enlightenment, the way Karel had, or anything of the sort. After the war, Lowen stays in service, living a similar life to the one he had before: that of a soldier. Obviously there will be some minor changes, as very few people are perfectly stagnant for very long times, but I don't think Lowen would have been in for some drastic changes that would warrant a change in his default facial expression, or his signature haircut.

[Epic Fail]

With regard to Lowen's haircut, if Arch had changed it (e.g. removed the fringe) then we'd have to stare in to the gaping abyss where his eyeballs are supposed to be (how else can you explain 20% Skill growth).

[Nintenlord]

Hey Arch, why won't you be more creative? Add aliens, trains, looooooooong cutscenes and something completely random such as Dorcas and Eliwood being in bath together! That would be creative!

[NICKT™]

Wait, I'm confused on the aging bit. Changing his haircut is taking away the only physical distinguishing feature we have on the guy. Not only that, it's a very unique one, there aren't any other FE characters that I'm aware of that have hair anything like that. Changing that seems like you're changing Lowen entirely.

As far as facial expression, what would you change Lowen's expression too? The dude's an insecure but determined soldier, who's a bit awkward. That odd frown is a fitting default expression. I don't think either of these two factors would change in the course of 3 years, and while some people develop and change a lot from their late teens to early twenties, Lowen does not seem like the type that might. He's perfectly mature as is, so a more mature demeanor isn't necessary, He's also not some one to have gone through some sort of enlightenment, the way Karel had, or anything of the sort. After the war, Lowen stays in service, living a similar life to the one he had before: that of a soldier. Obviously there will be some minor changes, as very few people are perfectly stagnant for very long times, but I don't think Lowen would have been in for some drastic changes that would warrant a change in his default facial expression, or his signature haircut.

Thank you for at least having the decency to provide a good reply. The reason the hair bugged me so much was because he decided to grow facial hair, it seemed weird he would change his facial hair and yet leave the hair on his head alone, especially considering his personality.

Also, Nintenlord, I never said he needed to be more creative. :L