Return of the Emblem: Chat

[roymbrog]

This isn't based off CAFE, no

I'm not familiar with LoAF's system, so I can't say if that one is either.

Edited March 4, 2011 by roymbrog

[Zsword]

LAOF to me looks like a more up to date version of CAFEs, though... instead of Cap 7 on stats... it's just whatever it happens to be that you reached...

aah... my plan for Zeph... 7 health, 7 defence, 7 Resistance... he was going to be quite literally invinciable... but uh yeah...

main complaint: Shamans are UPed (actually, magic classes in general are especially considering that they don't count as a ranged attack in combat...) Cause Mages do more damage, are more accurate, and faster... and almost have the same resistance... and clerics and troubs get far more accurate and far more resistance... making Shaman's kinda pointless as a class....

[roymbrog]

Shamans heal themselves when they attack. I think that helps.

[Zsword]

Not really, it doesn't counter act the sheer amount of doubling and tripling that mages get to give things dead, and everything and it's uncle doubles you for obscene damage cause you have no defence stats what so ever on top of being really slow. The most optimum shaman statting would be HP, Mag, and Skl.... cause otherwise your not hitting anything, your not doing damage, and if you invested in spd or a defence skill you wouldn't be getting the most out of your Heal when you can use it...

[Dark Sage]

I have a question for you Z.

Is it impossible for you to not whine about how Phoenix's system is unbalanced in some way? Remember. It's also about weapons. Phoenix's system is actually somewhat different than Snowy's. Some basic ideas are present but there are a lot of major alterations.

I'm sorry for sounding really harsh but this has been getting under my skin for awhile. Please do not ignore things like weapons for example when complaining classes are different.

Also. Base stats.

You don't even know what enemies we're going to face. So don't make assumptions like "mages will always double" or thieves will always do high damage with the combat knife."

And finally, speed helps prevent GETTING doubled. That 7 defense isn't always going to be enough to help and same with resistance. It also allows you to DOUBLE to deal more DAMAGE.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Laughing Unicorn

[roymbrog]

Mages aren't going to be doubling and tripling like crazy either. To do that you need a weapon that lowers the amount needed for doubling, and there are no tomes that do that. I think all the magic classes got the shaft, to be honest, but Shamans aren't as bad off as you say.

[Zsword]

@ Unicorn: Not really, kinda halfway scarred after how bade CAFE was...

@ weapons: tomes=hosed, as they only get the basic tier up... and some other odd bonus that I don't even know what it does cause it wasn't mentioned in the OP. (like, 'Runed Dark Tomes')

@ Spd: I can't really afford to invest in that when I'm trying to play the magic tank that shamans are meant to be. (which to pull off right, means having obscenes amounts of health, cause a point in health is as good as a point in defence and Resistance at once... (and when did I say I was giving my Shaman Defence? note the name differance, Zephys is an old character of mine that was in a Snowy system.

@ roy: Yeah, but they atleast can invest in spd enough to NOT get doubled and tripled by anything faster than an Armor and be well off.

[Dark Sage]

Not. Every. Enemy. Is. Not. Going. To. Double. Us. Or. Be. Too. Fast. To. Be. Doubled. And. No. Those. Aren't. Only. Going. To. Be. Armors.

Get that through that thick head of yours.

[roymbrog]

Your speed complaint is funny because Shamans and Mages have the same base speed. I'm kinda surprised you didn't notice that yet.

Also, something I didn't even notice, clerics have more resistance than shamans.

Edited March 4, 2011 by roymbrog

[Zsword]

Dawned on me later, forgot it when reviewing posts, cause anyone who understood that the only way to utilize the shaman properly is to play a tank, which requires defence and not spd, Mages are meant to be played as Glass canons, so they can afford to get spd.

Edit: Another reason shamans get effed in the A, there are 2 classes that do their jobs better than them. (cause both Clerics and troubs actually have more defence)

*reads unicorns set of sentences*

so... my point still stands.... cause that's a double negative...

but in all seriousnes, it doesn't effect me considering I won't be hitting many things cause I'm playing a tank anyway, but that's the proper way to play shamans considering they get a bonus to health every other attack... but even then they barely scratch up enough defencive stats to do that much.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Zsword

[roymbrog]

Have you considered that maybe here the shamans are the glass cannons? They do have more base magic then any of the other classes, after all.

[Zsword]

but they get less on promo, making mages better for it, a smart mage ties with them at tier two, and then out classes at three.

I guess one minor redeeming factor is versatility... but... in a game like this that's almost more of a bane cause you WILL get side shot to a certain role.

[Dark Sage]

I'm finding it hard to take you seriously since for one thing you seem to be drawing a lot of conclusions about all the enemies we'll fight through one fight. Exactly one fight. Which frankly, is retarded. The second thing is the whole "meant to be played thing." It's true. Shamans are good at being magic tanks. But that's not the only path they could go. Phoenix did give each class their own strengths and weaknesses but he also allowed for things like raising an armor like a myrmidon or a thief like a fighter. Stuff like that. Of course some classes can do it better than others, but the point is, the way things were "meant to be played" doesn't make it the only way or the main way to play.

I know this because I was actually around to see all the changes he made and learned his design process when Merc and I acted as testers (Merc did pretty much everything though XD).

Edited March 4, 2011 by Laughing Unicorn

[13th]

^This. And I haven't been in a real battle.

[Mercakete]

This system makes statbuilding unpredictable. I don't think there's any class that's really "supposed" to fill a certain role. Build up your wyvern rider's resistance and you have a magtank. Build up your myrm's defense and you have a tank...tank... Build up your mage's skl and you get a never-miss sniper (not the calss, mind you). By tier 3, level 5, any class can fill virtually any role (though I personally like units that can fill nearly any of the classic roles (dps(melee/ranged/mag), tank(melee/ranged/mag), healer, cc (crowd control)).

In short, I don't see what you're complaining about. It sounds like you're disillusioned into thinking someone's forcing you to have a role you don't want. :/

[Phoenix]

@ System

The only unaltered things left of the LoAF system present in this one are the stat sets(hp,str,mag,skl,spd,lck,def,res), and the dice rolling basics. Everything else was torn down and rebuilt with just a few things coming up somewhat the same.

@ Spd

You know that no two classes start off with more than 3 points difference in speed, right? The longer the rp goes on, the more the doubling gap is going to shrink.

If you can't afford to invest a little in speed, then I'm imagining that you're trying to polarize your class or something(spending only in three specific categories on all level ups).

@ Tomes

I wrote a bit for this in the OP. Surprisingly I ran out of ideas for items around 80+ or so, so I figured we would just start the rp and let the system get broken in(maybe past chapter 2? <_<) before trying to implement every tome imaginable. Another thing to note is that new items created for the rp aren't going to get unlocked any sooner than what's appropriate for them.

eg: Don't invent something particularly useful/powerful and expect it to be available before you hit a certain level or become buyable the next chapter. If you're in no rush to use something, then waiting for awhile to get it implemented and on the list should be just fine, no?

@ Magic users in general

We're dealing with very small numbers at base levels, mind you.

Abilities

Clerics: Their ability is healing centric and so they operate with no bonuses of any kind by default in combat.

Troubs: Their ability is useless without a KO'd ally, so same as clerics in combat.

Mages: Mages can increase their mt but they take a noticeable stat hit somewhere else as a result. Lowering their skill(increase miss odds), speed(lowering AS), luck(lowering counter evasion chance), or defense/res(no explanation needed there) could cost them pretty heavily, especially at lower levels.

Shamans: Their ability let's them (with no penalties of any kind mind you) convert half of their damage to hp.

Now Shamans only need a little investment in skl/spd to not be screwed in those areas. Also classes have default uses but can be tailored to whatever playstyle someone wants to give them. I don't much like the term "proper way to use ____"(unless we're talking about thieves or myrms) when applied to some of these classes since if you haven't noticed, you can get a powerful/versatile/attack-centric/defense-centric character out of any and all of these classes, with or without weapon effects.

@ Rune Dark Tomes

Those don't exist, and I don't recall that being mentioned anywhere. Not to mention the Shamans have that as a skill in essence :/

[Zsword]

Except I'm rather comfortable with about the whole auto dodge tanks thing, which as the only fight I've seen, makes it rather lame I know, but I haven't referanced it yet this discussion.

As for meant to vs how your going to: I'm kinda aware of this, I'm my character is going to have a LOT of health by the time we're done, cause I only plan on investing in three stats, maybe 4.

Health, Magic, Skill, and maybe the occasional resistance if I feel that one of the other ones are doing okay, other wise this is my lvling plan. Which, considering my complaints, is wrong cause I should go mostly Res instead of Health. I don't argue for me, I argue for the game, cause I'm a total balance nut...

Also: I like how I'm thinking up more arguments against myself that you guys are, cause there's this one factor you have yet to really mention I think that actually does help balance this out a bit, right now I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Zsword]

btw: I should mention that when it comes to games, I actually tailor the game and my complaints around what your typical Min/Maxer (AKA, powergamer) thinks of for these sorts of things, cause all the combat systems and RPs I had to design were full of them, I myself has as such developed some of these tendencies in the process. (example here)

@ rune dark tomes: Ok, quoted directly from the OPs weapon types list. (though it has been updated recently with descriptions, and Light tomes lost their unique tome type in some form or another)

TYPES OF WEAPONS:

Spoiler () Iron: Default weapons

Slayer: Grant bonuses toward three types of units

Killer: Increase critical hit chance

Reaver: Reverse weapon/magic triangle

Slim: Reduce Doubling and Tripling requirements

Poison: Inflict poison ailment causing three phase hp loss

Steel: MT augmenting weapons

El: MT augmenting tomes

Silver: Superior MT augmenting weapons

Arc: Superior MT augmenting tomes

Brave: Perform consecutive attacks

Ranged: Attack from a distance only taking counters from certain units

Siege: Attack from a great distance taking no counters normally

Imbued(Anima): Use magic as well as strength to increase MT

Light: Target defense or resistance

Rune(Dark): Steal hp

Skill: Weapons where skill determine MT

ayep.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Zsword

[Phoenix]

Ah, so you are polarizing. Weeeeeell I guess someone was bound to. Just one thing though. Polarized classes can always be gods in a certain stat category(or a few actually), but it comes at an interesting cost of them being absolute garbage in other vital areas.

Something I made when I was checking the level up restrictions:

(Basically wanted to see an actual example of what someone might try to pull off for better or for worse)

note: These are very old so ignore the class names

Wyvern knight: Wyvern rider

Wyvern lord: Wyvern knight

Dragon lord: Wyvern lord

Class: Wyvern Knight

Mounted stats (tier 0)

HP: 4 STR: 3 MAG: 0 SKL: 3 SPD: 3 LCK: 1 DEF: 1 RES: 1

Wyvern Knight stats (tier 1)

HP: 5 STR: 4 MAG: 0 SKL: 3 SPD: 3 LCK: 1 DEF: 3 RES: 1

<Customizable until promotion at level six>

CLASS REFLECTING LEVEL UPS

Wyvern Knight stats level 2

HP: 5 STR: 5 MAG: 0 SKL: 4 SPD: 3 LCK: 1 DEF: 4 RES: 1

Wyvern Knight stats level 3

HP: 6 STR: 5 MAG: 0 SKL: 4 SPD: 4 LCK: 1 DEF: 5 RES: 1

Wyvern Knight stats level 4

HP: 6 STR: 6 MAG: 0 SKL: 5 SPD: 4 LCK: 1 DEF: 6 RES: 1

Wyvern Knight stats level 5

HP: 7 STR: 7 MAG: 0 SKL: 5 SPD: 5 LCK: 1 DEF: 7 RES: 1

POLARIZED LEVEL UPS

Wyvern Knight stats level 2

HP: 5 STR: 4 MAG: 0 SKL: 5 SPD: 6 LCK: 2 DEF: 3 RES: 1

Wyvern Knight stats level 3

HP: 5 STR: 4 MAG: 0 SKL: 6 SPD: 7 LCK: 3 DEF: 3 RES: 1

Wyvern Knight stats level 4

HP: 5 STR: 4 MAG: 0 SKL: 7 SPD: 8 LCK: 4 DEF: 3 RES: 1

Wyvern Knight stats level 5

HP: 5 STR: 4 MAG: 0 SKL: 8 SPD: 9 LCK: 5 DEF: 3 RES: 1

<Promoted Wyvern Knight>

Class Wyvern Lord (Class reflecting)

HP: 8 STR: 9 MAG: 0 SKL: 5 SPD: 5 LCK: 1 DEF: 8 RES: 1

Class Wyvern Lord (Polarized)

HP: 6 STR: 6 MAG: 0 SKL: 8 SPD: 9 LCK: 5 DEF: 4 RES: 1

<Customizable until promotion at level six>

CLASS REFLECTING LEVEL UPS

Wyvern Lord level 2

HP: 9 STR: 10 MAG: 0 SKL: 6 SPD: 5 LCK: 1 DEF: 8 RES: 1

Wyvern Lord level 3

HP: 10 STR: 10 MAG: 0 SKL: 7 SPD: 6 LCK: 1 DEF: 8 RES: 1

Wyvern Lord level 3

HP: 10 STR: 10 MAG: 0 SKL: 7 SPD: 6 LCK: 2 DEF: 9 RES: 2

Wyvern Lord level 4

HP: 10 STR: 10 MAG: 0 SKL: 8 SPD: 7 LCK: 2 DEF: 10 RES: 2

Wyvern Lord level 5

HP: 10 STR: 10 MAG: 0 SKL: 9 SPD: 8 LCK: 2 DEF: 11 RES: 2

POLARIZED LEVEL UPS

Wyvern Lord level 2

HP: 6 STR: 6 MAG: 0 SKL: 9 SPD: 10 LCK: 6 DEF: 4 RES: 1

Wyvern Lord level 3

HP: 6 STR: 6 MAG: 0 SKL: 10 SPD: 11 LCK: 7 DEF: 4 RES: 1

Wyvern Lord level 4

HP: 6 STR: 6 MAG: 0 SKL: 11 SPD: 12 LCK: 8 DEF: 4 RES: 1

Wyvern Lord level 5

HP: 6 STR: 6 MAG: 0 SKL: 12 SPD: 13 LCK: 9 DEF: 4 RES: 1

<Promoted Wyvern Lord>

Class Dragon Lord (Class reflecting)

HP: 11 STR: 12 MAG: 0 SKL: 9 SPD: 8 LCK: 2 DEF: 12 RES: 2

Class Dragon Lord (Polarized)

HP: 7 STR: 8 MAG: 0 SKL: 12 SPD: 13 LCK: 9 DEF: 5 RES: 1

<Customizable until 3/5>

CLASS REFLECTING LEVEL UPS

Dragon Lord level 2

HP: 12 STR: 12 MAG: 0 SKL: 10 SPD: 8 LCK: 2 DEF: 13 RES: 2

Dragon Lord level 3

HP: 12 STR: 12 MAG: 0 SKL: 11 SPD: 9 LCK: 2 DEF: 14 RES: 2

Dragon Lord level 4

HP: 12 STR: 12 MAG: 0 SKL: 12 SPD: 10 LCK: 2 DEF: 14 RES: 3

Dragon Lord level 5

HP: 12 STR: 12 MAG: 0 SKL: 12 SPD: 10 LCK: 2 DEF: 14 RES: 4

POLARIZED LEVEL UPS

Dragon Lord level 2

HP: 7 STR: 8 MAG: 0 SKL: 13 SPD: 14 LCK: 10 DEF: 5 RES: 1

Dragon Lord level 3

HP: 7 STR: 8 MAG: 0 SKL: 14 SPD: 15 LCK: 11 DEF: 5 RES: 1

Dragon Lord level 4

HP: 7 STR: 8 MAG: 0 SKL: 15 SPD: 16 LCK: 12 DEF: 5 RES: 1

Dragon Lord level 5

HP: 7 STR: 8 MAG: 0 SKL: 16 SPD: 17 LCK: 13 DEF: 5 RES: 1

FINAL PRODUCTS

Dragon Lord level 5

HP: 12 STR: 12 MAG: 0 SKL: 12 SPD: 10 LCK: 2 DEF: 14 RES: 4

Dragon Lord level 5

HP: 7 STR: 8 MAG: 0 SKL: 16 SPD: 17 LCK: 13 DEF: 5 RES: 1

You see anything funny here?

Rune(Dark): Steal hp

^That doesn't say tome anywhere

The "dark" was put there to make sure people knew I was referring to dark magic, aka "Rune Swords/weapons"

Edited March 5, 2011 by Phoenix

[Mercakete]

lol; I remember this example. Brings to mind a funny quote when you were explaining this.

"The first is what a standard wyvern lord would be. The second is...probably Tas. "

[Zsword]

oh wait... so you mean to tell me that Tomes are even more screwed over than I originally thought.

At polarized stats: lrn 2 polarize? Str, Def, Spd, and Skill is a much better polar set for Dragon Lords, why the HECK did you give it a pile of Lck? Dragon Lord's don't need luck, they need ouch and soak ouch.

So yeah, either way: besides, the reason I'm statting the way I am is cause it's 'smart' (quoted for opinions), if I start getting my butt royally handed to me on a platter I'll change my plan, or use the 150 points it takes to re-stat. woo hoo.

[Inactive Account]

...Since when did the point of the RP become munchkinning? I thought the main point was to enjoy things, namely the plot, and the stats were only there as icing. :/

[Mercakete]

I stat my characters based on how I designed them/ their backstory/their personality. I love this system cause it lets me do that freely. In LoAF I have a wyvern rider named Tas who I stacked luck and speed on because he's a courier and so has been trained to fly away if attacked. As such, he should be good at avoiding things. So that would be one reason to stack luck and speed on a wyvern rider. Rp's are largely based on story and characters from what I've seen. This is less of a game, more of an rp, I think, so someone shouldn't be chastized for statting their character in an unconventional way.

[Phoenix]

At polarized stats: lrn 2 polarize? Str, Def, Spd, and Skill is a much better polar set for Dragon Lords, why the HECK did you give it a pile of Lck? Dragon Lord's don't need luck, they need ouch and soak ouch.

You missed the point of that. It wasn't about the class, it was about the other stats that ended up suffering considerably.

oh wait... so you mean to tell me that Tomes are even more screwed over than I originally thought.

Nothing is screwed, it's only chapter 2 <_<

So yeah, either way: besides, the reason I'm statting the way I am is cause it's 'smart' (quoted for opinions), if I start getting my butt royally handed to me on a platter I'll change my plan, or use the 150 points it takes to re-stat. woo hoo.

Every character is going to end up in a battle where there are enemies they really aren't suited for. It's being designed that way. It's half the reason for combat teams. Characters getting royally stomped either got the short end of the stick on EP or bothered going after ill-advised units.

[Mercakete]

Also, from what I can tell, tomes can get the same buffs as def-attackers. That is, you can get brave tomes, reaver tomes, slayer tomes... They're just titles you can stamp on your weapons for the effects. I don't see how tomes are underpowered. (Phoenix, please correct me if I'm wrong)