Best/Worst in the Series: Round 92

[Radiant Dragon]

Alright then: let's take the extreme (I highly doubt every chapter can be completed in this timeframe, but you're implying they can): every chapter is cleared in five turns. 5 X 2 = 10, meaning every four chapters will score a support, still good in my books.

You're forgetting something very important, however: Are Lowen and Rebecca going to be standing next to each other every turn for ~12 chapters? Especially since Lowen has 2 extra move and will be performing separate tasks, and this isn't even taking into account that Rebecca can't counter at 1-range.

[Maji]

You're forgetting something very important, however: Are Lowen and Rebecca going to be standing next to each other every turn for ~12 chapters? Especially since Lowen has 2 extra move and will be performing separate tasks, and this isn't even taking into account that Rebecca can't counter at 1-range.

Yes I am, the beginning chapters aren't that hard anyway, so why not take the time to boost supports before things get nasty?

(We're also assuming that this is HM where you want to play it defensively and bunch your units, correct?)

Edited May 25, 2011 by Axefighter Maji

[Tangerine]

Stop double posting please, Maji.

[dondon151]

*cracks knuckles*

Yes I am, the beginning chapters aren't that hard anyway, so why not take the time to boost supports before things get nasty?

(We're also assuming that this is HM where you want to play it defensively and bunch your units, correct?)

You're operating under the assumption that HM is difficult enough that supports are required. They're not.

FE7 supports don't come close to breaking the game. They require a significant amount of time to build, they restrict player movement in order to take effect, and they're not even in play most of the time. Take a look at my FE7 and FE8 HM 0% playthroughs - no supports whatsoever, and I make the game look easy.

There's so many things wrong with your posts that it would be a waste of my time to respond to them point by point. Some flagrant violations include thinking that reducing weapon weight helps Soren's spd issues (Soren's spd is already low before factoring in weapon weight) and that you can permanently glue units together in every FE7 map without incurring some sort of turn cost.

The difference between abusing forges and abusing arenas is that the former requires near zero resources in the form of turncount. You tell the guy to put +5 MT, +5 hit on your Wing Spear or Ridersbane, and you're good for OHKOing the most common enemy type in the game for 14 chapters or so to come. The payoff in terms of turns saved is much greater than the opportunity cost. Whereas for arena abusing, you can spend 200 turns to make the rest of the game trivially easy, but you probably could have taken fewer turns to finish the game normally. I'd be loathe to call a feature of the game a form of "abuse" if the cost is greater than the benefit.

Please take a few minutes of your time and take a look at my FE DS 0% playthrough. I trivialize the game by using nothing less than smart forging and Warp. This should dispel any of your doubts.

Edited May 25, 2011 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

I like FE9 supports the most, you don't have to glue units together and it makes more sense for units to talk at base than on the battlefield itself.

[Maji]

*cracks knuckles*

You're operating under the assumption that HM is difficult enough that supports are required. They're not.

FE7 supports don't come close to breaking the game. They require a significant amount of time to build, they restrict player movement in order to take effect, and they're not even in play most of the time. Take a look at my FE7 and FE8 HM 0% playthroughs - no supports whatsoever, and I make the game look easy.

There's so many things wrong with your posts that it would be a waste of my time to respond to them point by point. Some flagrant violations include thinking that reducing weapon weight helps Soren's spd issues (Soren's spd is already low before factoring in weapon weight) and that you can permanently glue units together in every FE7 map without incurring some sort of turn cost.

The difference between abusing forges and abusing arenas is that the former requires near zero resources in the form of turncount. You tell the guy to put +5 MT, +5 hit on your Wing Spear or Ridersbane, and you're good for OHKOing the most common enemy type in the game for 14 chapters or so to come. The payoff in terms of turns saved is much greater than the opportunity cost. Whereas for arena abusing, you can spend 200 turns to make the rest of the game trivially easy, but you probably could have taken fewer turns to finish the game normally. I'd be loathe to call a feature of the game a form of "abuse" if the cost is greater than the benefit.

Please take a few minutes of your time and take a look at my FE DS 0% playthrough. I trivialize the game by using nothing less than smart forging and Warp. This should dispel any of your doubts.

Put down your fists, it's done.

@ All, after some thinking, I'm giving up, this started with Skl in FE11, and this is clearly not Skl related anymore. I'm sorry NinjaMonkey for making a mess out of your thread, I won't do this next time.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Axefighter Maji

[Anouleth]

Having 10% more hit >>>>>>>> not having 10% more hit, luckily you don't have to pick Str over Skl, so having a free 10% along with Str and Spd is cool if you ask me.

Sure, but when you compare the difference that 10 skill makes to the difference that 10 strength, or 10 speed, or 10 defense makes, it's apparent that it's a relatively useless stat.

The Laguz Royals are optional to use, much like forging, so I still don't see why forging is much different from using Laguz royals when both don't have to be used, Endgame restriction or not.

Did you even read my post? I said that the Laguz Royals do not 'break' endgame, and that's true. They are not the greatest units - they lack Canto, or 1-2 range, or flight in 4-E-1. They are not the best endgame units, none of them fall into that category. I didn't pull the same stupid 'it's okay because they're optional' argument you did, so I don't understand why you're acting like I did.

I wouldn't warp Sheeda to the middle of a battle frontier anyway. Warping her in let's say... Ch. 5? Whoa dude. Besides, you're piling two Warp uses a chapter, and that'd kill your supply REAL quick.

When you plan to beat the chapter on Turn 1, Shiida's durability is not a concern. Obviously, you can't full warp in every chapter, but when >half the game can be warpskipped, it still trivialises much of the game.

Why would you use Jeigan for more than the first five chapters anyway? By then, if your team can't hold themselves, obviously you're going to be screwed over when Jeigan gets outclassed by more badass units later on.

Because he can pick up a Ridersbane forge and OHKO half the game like I just said? And it just goes to show how little you know about FE11 that you think that Jagen is a poor unit, when he's at the top of High Tier on the tierlist currently (which also goes to show how unimportant stats are in FE11).

I don't think that FE11 is so difficult that you are ever forced to abuse Forging. Simple as.

Sure, but Forging does trivialise the game and can be done very easily. I'd hardly call it 'abusing'.

Then you give Barts a Hand Axe 60 Acc? Ouch, luckily he'll have his Skl to buff it up.

Just as the difference between 80 and 84 is not significant, neither is the difference between 60 and 64.

24 Mt, you're doing something wrong if you need to forge it further to ORKO people, especially if you're leveling your units correctly.

So you're perfectly happy to assume a ridiculously unnecessary +10 Ridersbane forge so you can bitch about the cost, and now we don't need to forge at all?

Besides, if you don't even need to forge the Ridersbane to OHKO the many Cavaliers and Horsemen in the game, isn't that just further proof of how badly made FE11 is?

Oh, now you're going to give everyone forged Knight Killers (granted- Wing Spear for Sheeda)? I do believe that this originally sprouted from you saying giving someone a Knight Killer breaks the game.

You can trade them around. And some people will use Poleax instead, obviously, and sometimes you'll need to bust out the Hammers for Armour Knights.

He's still damn fine with a forged Wind tome though.

Not really. Soren doesn't really have a place in efficient play... he takes too much time and training, and it's impossible to take good advantage of his offensive stats because his movement and durability are poor.

+15 Avd on an Archer is indeed useful, now they can bait attacks and come out of it unscathed. I know Crit is unreliable, but an extra boost is always good if you ask me.

Or I can bait attacks with a real unit and have them deal damage on the counter-attack?

[Rewjeo]

When I said 'useless', that was obviously hyperbole (in the same way that once you get down to brass tacks, Fiona is not 'useless', but she's damn close). Certainly, the minor difference between 75 and 90 hit given that's the effect of 15 skill is pretty low. Could you say that the effect of 15 strength, or 15 defense, or 15 speed is that low? Of course not.

It's the difference between missing 12.25% of the time and missing 1.9% of the time. And that's with someone who had pretty good hit to begin with. Take a handaxe. Going from 65 to 80 means missing 12.25% of the time instead of 24.15%. Yeah, ~10% different chance of hitting doesn't sound like much, but it greatly improves both offense AND defense. If I can actually rely on my unit to hit, my guys will take fewer attacks overall, and it of course improves offense because, well, you're reliably killing now. Especially in, say, H5 where I now either don't need to forge the hit on anymore, saving money for another forge or maybe more MT, or I don't need to risk (or there's significantly less of a risk) someone missing an attack and forcing you to restart. Sure, 15 STR or DEF does more, but SKL is far from worthless and a joke stat.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Anouleth]

It's the difference between missing 12.25% of the time and missing 1.9% of the time. And that's with someone who had pretty good hit to begin with. Take a handaxe. Going from 65 to 80 means missing 12.25% of the time instead of 24.15%. Yeah, ~10% different chance of hitting doesn't sound like much, but it greatly improves both offense AND defense. If I can actually rely on my unit to hit, my guys will take fewer attacks overall, and it of course improves offense because, well, you're reliably killing now. Especially in, say, H5 where I now either don't need to forge the hit on anymore, saving money for another forge or maybe more MT, or I don't need to risk (or there's significantly less of a risk) someone missing an attack and forcing you to restart. Sure, 15 STR or DEF does more, but SKL is far from worthless and a joke stat.

Of course it's not 'worthless' in absolute terms. But relative to other stats? Of course it is. The problem with the FE11 calculation style is that even with a low-skill unit against a relatively high avoid unit, you still pull 60s and 70s, and that's only compounded by having stuff like forges and weapon ranks and easy supports that can easily boost hit rates even higher. 10 points of skill is a huge amount, and takes something like 30 levels to build up, but in the end, all it does is the exact same thing as a B rank support or having B weapon rank or something.

[Zkirsche]

Overrated: Fe10. Too many boring routs.

Underrated: Fe9.

[Just call me AL]

Overrated: FE10, bad story, equally bad balancing, too many character derailments, badly-written/no-personality new characters. Yet people treat it so highly.

Underrated: FE7 It got a lot of things right. Why the hate?

Edited May 25, 2011 by LittleAl

[Shadow Mir]

Uderrated: FE7 It got a lot of things right, why the hate?

Personally there were some things I think it could've done better, like treating Lyn as if she was actually important after she met up with Hector and Eli - I felt not too long after that, she was pretty much swept under the rug story wise. Then again, I think FE7's hate, like FF7's hate, probably was a result of all the hype it was getting in the first place.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Just call me AL]

It's really FE4 that gets the FF7 treatment though, not FE7.

[Silvercrow]

It's really FE4 that gets the FF7 treatment though, not FE7.

No, FE4 gets more of the FF6 treatment. Except FF6 is a lot better in the context of FF than FE4 is in the context of FE so people tend to care less when people give so much love to FF6.

[dondon151]

Of course it's not 'worthless' in absolute terms. But relative to other stats? Of course it is. The problem with the FE11 calculation style is that even with a low-skill unit against a relatively high avoid unit, you still pull 60s and 70s, and that's only compounded by having stuff like forges and weapon ranks and easy supports that can easily boost hit rates even higher. 10 points of skill is a huge amount, and takes something like 30 levels to build up, but in the end, all it does is the exact same thing as a B rank support or having B weapon rank or something.

I'd say that 10 hit is sort of a big deal in the long run, but even in my style of play where I heavily abuse resets to get what I need, I'm more than willing to try things for the possibility to hit (e.g. I wouldn't mind having only 70 hit instead of 80). A far more concerning problem is actually getting the OHKO (based on str + weapon MT) or ORKO (based on AS), and surviving the enemy attack (HP + def), which can be very easily predicted.

Also, save points exist to mitigate the effects of missing to a small extent.

[Bearissoslow]

Personally there were some things I think it could've done better, like treating Lyn as if she was actually important after she met up with Hector and Eli - I felt not too long after that, she was pretty much swept under the rug story wise.

...You have played Hector mode, right?

[Rewjeo]

FE7 is just genuinely my least favorite game in the series.

[Radiant Dragon]

FE7 is just genuinely my least favorite game in the series.

Does that make it overrated, though?

[Florete]

Does that make it overrated, though?

This is something people should remember. FE4 is definitely not the lowest on my scale of good to bad for FE games. In fact, it is probably in the upper half, I just think it gets too much praise.

[Ein]

FE7 is just genuinely my least favorite game in the series.

And this is why these Best/Worst threads are complete asinine.

[Rewjeo]

Does that make it overrated, though?

To me, yes. It gets far more praise than I feel it deserves, so to me it is overrated.

[Junkhead]

And this is why these Best/Worst threads are complete asinine.

I think picking your least favorite game as "overrated" is BS. Something I've seen frequently in this thread.

[Mousefire]

I think picking your least favorite game as "overrated" is BS. Something I've seen frequently in this thread.

Somewhat of an inverse is also true. Games they like, but nobody plays, are thought of as underrated. I've never seen anyone bash Gaiden, and only ever seen Thracia bashed for it's difficulty. Even that's much outweighed by the praise given by those who are skilled enough to play it.

[Life]

Overrated: FE12. Maybe because it's still Japanese only but I didn't like FE11 and FE12 didn't really get any better for me. Got bored during Chapter 2 which is saying something.

Underrated: FE9. In a heartbeat. Nobody ever talks about this game anymore since everyone is fixated more on FE10. To me, FE9 might just be the best game in the series (though FE7 is still my favourite).

[Rewjeo]

I think picking your least favorite game as "overrated" is BS. Something I've seen frequently in this thread.

How? People praise it. I don't feel it deserves that it deserves all of the praise it gets. Therefor, it is overrated in my opinion. That's the same reason say FE4 gets votes- people don't think it's as good as all the praise it gets. Or is there an objective way to judge how good a game is compared to the praise it gets? In which case voting is pointless.