Growths vs Bases

[eclipse]

Not everyone plays for efficiency, and it's not like every single person out there plays to keep everyone alive. Let's say someone killed off Gilliam for IDK reason. Amelia can then promote to Knight, and, um, attempt to take his place (she'll be bad at it. . .uh, never mind, crappy example. . .)

[Anouleth]

Not everyone plays for efficiency, and it's not like every single person out there plays to keep everyone alive. Let's say someone killed off Gilliam for IDK reason. Amelia can then promote to Knight, and, um, attempt to take his place (she'll be bad at it. . .uh, never mind, crappy example. . .)

Right, and I don't think there's anything wrong with Amelia being able to pick between General and Paladin. But that's not a good enough reason to give her low growths as well as bad bases.

[Narga_Rocks]

Could you imagine if they capped every single stat what some people would be saying about the units? There are still a lot of places where you can see people talk about how good the 3 trainees are as it is, low bases and bad growths and all. Now imagine even giving +5 or +10 to each growth and see how stubborn they are with refusing to accept Amelia and friends are bad units.

When you talk about people willing to go into random battles repeatedly just to train up the trainees so they don't suck, giving bigger growths to them would be a little much. Like, imagine if you increase Kurth's growths what people willing to have Kurth solo 4-E-3 would be saying about how omg amazing he is.

[Rewjeo]

Well, there would at least be some substance to what they're saying since they actually would end up better than other units.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, there would at least be some substance to what they're saying since they actually would end up better than other units.

Until you consider how you can complete the game quite quickly even on zero growths, apparently, so all that time and effort in raising them would still be a waste.

[XiSrOn]

I always liked the units that were little kids and started out awful, but then dominated everyone and everything later on. I love Rolf in FE9 despite him leeching all of my BEXP - purely because he's like 7 years old and rapes older men with his bow. That said, in games without Tower of Valni or BEXP there is a line I draw - if the unit is a class that is usually a front-line fighter and I have to go ridiculously out of my way (Marisa being a prime example, she has no 2-range and pitiful defenses) or I'm doing a run where I care about efficiency then I won't use anyone with terrible bases. But on the flip side, in FE:DS, I can't stand Jagen and most of the other pre-pro's because their growths are just awful - I care too much about how useful they are to me at the end of the game, so I'll only use them to chip and to clear out bosses whenever I absolutely HAVE to.

[Aethereal]

Could you imagine if they capped every single stat what some people would be saying about the units? There are still a lot of places where you can see people talk about how good the 3 trainees are as it is, low bases and bad growths and all. Now imagine even giving +5 or +10 to each growth and see how stubborn they are with refusing to accept Amelia and friends are bad units.

Well, two things. In order for a unit who starts with bad bases to have any kind of purpose, they need to turn out good. Not just average, like the trainees do. I agree the idiots would be annoying, but idiots are always annoying. But also, they really don't need to cap every stat, they need to be above average for the latter portion of the game if you drag yourself through training them.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, two things. In order for a unit who starts with bad bases to have any kind of purpose, they need to turn out good. Not just average, like the trainees do. I agree the idiots would be annoying, but idiots are always annoying. But also, they really don't need to cap every stat, they need to be above average for the latter portion of the game if you drag yourself through training them.

"Every stat" was a bit of hyperbole on my part, but it's not as if Franz doesn't already cap spd and near-cap str. Moulder almost gets skl and spd. Even Artur almost gets all of str, skl, spd, res as a bishop. (only res is more than 1.2 away from a cap at 20/20)

They'd have to at least cap str and spd to be worth raising. And do so by 10/20/10 or something. Getting at least close on hp and skl and def would be nice, and cracking 25 luck by 10/20/10 would be nice as well. They already get pretty close to the last part.

Then consider that if you just fight story battles you likely aren't breaking 20/10 ...

[Lord Raven]

I don't even think 20/10 is all that viable for story battles, it'd be like 20/3 or 4 for foot units and like 20/7 or 8 for mounted units, with Seth/Duessel hitting the teens. Not that you'd promote at Level 20 anyway.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[sunshineYON]

Early game recruitable unit -> look at growth

Late game recruitable/ prepromote unit -> look at bases.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't even think 20/10 is all that viable for story battles, it'd be like 20/3 or 4 for foot units and like 20/7 or 8 for mounted units, with Seth/Duessel hitting the teens. Not that you'd promote at Level 20 anyway.

I had the interesting experience of Seth having a higher --/x level than the others had x/ levels. Like, he was 20/8 while nobody was higher than level 8 themselves, and they had less exp towards level 9 than he had towards 20/9. That didn't last forever, of course, as a couple of units eventually "passed" him (tier 1 level to his tier 2 level). But it was quite amusing when I first noticed he was beating everyone by 20 levels.

[Lord Raven]

That's the way Titania generally was on my efficiency run for the first quarter (or thirds?) of the game. Endgame levels are weird overall, I bet Titania hits --/20 really easily (she was --/10 or --/11 by Chapter 16) and so do Marcia/Jill, and I doubt anyone else hits the double digits except Ike. 20/10 I feel is a huge stretch for endgame... pretty much shows how growths only matter in FE9 and bases matter way more than growths at any rate. Those who start out strong will stay strong because they'll keep nabbing kills and those who start out weak will lag because they can't get as many kills without getting babied or ganging up on shit.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

FE9 Titania is an interesting case for me, since she usually doesn't end up as the highest leveled unit at the end of the game, unlike most other Jeigans in other games. Ike, Marcia and Astrid usually surpass her in my runs.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Anouleth]

iirc, Aquilae got Seth to level 20/20. I doubt that Duessel would hit the teens, since even in Ephraim Route he's relegated to secondary combat duties.

And if we're talking a truly efficient playthrough, I doubt that any combat foot unit would even hit level 20. Even Gerik is not going to pass 10/5 before he's inevitably ditched.

EDIT: I checked, and even dondon got Seth to level 17, so I can definitely see Seth reaching an even higher level in a more normal playthrough where he can make use of his excellent growths.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Anouleth

[Narga_Rocks]

And if we're talking a truly efficient playthrough, I doubt that any combat foot unit would even hit level 20. Even Gerik is not going to pass 10/5 before he's inevitably ditched.

You know, you could turn Gerik into a Ranger. Though hand axes are really rather useful. But 1 extra move and less con (easier to ferry) could be worth it. It depends how important the hand axes are to strategy. Also 7 move isn't as good as 8. It's too bad that the ranger isn't more like a Nomad Trooper (ie: 8 move). Also there's the spd issue of only getting +1 at promo instead of +2.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

The reason why Gerik gets to 10/5 in the first place as a hero is because of his combat. Take that away and ranger Gerik might be struggling to hit 10/5 even if he's used until the end of the game.

[Othin]

Because of course there's a point to actually playing the game when your options are that ridiculously limited.

[Lord Raven]

Doesn't mean Gerik's any worse at what he does. His bases are ridiculous anyway; he rivals Seth's bases except he's at Level 10. He's probably way more preferable than a bunch of units in that chapter.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

You know, you could turn Gerik into a Ranger. Though hand axes are really rather useful. But 1 extra move and less con (easier to ferry) could be worth it. It depends how important the hand axes are to strategy. Also 7 move isn't as good as 8. It's too bad that the ranger isn't more like a Nomad Trooper (ie: 8 move). Also there's the spd issue of only getting +1 at promo instead of +2.

I think that Ranger can't really keep up any more than Hero can. It would get Gerik into Chapter 18, that's for sure (since he can wield Longbows), but at the cost of a weaker midgame. Chapter 18 gives really good experience, so it might be enough for him to reach a higher level.

Still, I prefer Gerik to have a strong midgame rather than try to extend his lifespan.

[Salad Utensil]

cough *got Gerik to 11/11 in his No Seth play through that is largely ignored since the last third of the game can be warp-skipped so high move is less important* cough