Mechanics that you want

[Othin]

Honestly, I probably wouldn't care about reclassing if it was only as a second playthrough bonus, separating it from the "main" part of the game and making it just a bonus which could be more easily considered non-canon compared to the first playthrough. I wouldn't be too happy, but I'd feel much more comfortable just ignoring it that way.

And no, FE really isn't that complex, especially recent games. I barely have to think while playing an FE game not made by Kaga, and those games are all quite simple in terms of features compared to other games I play.

Might have time to respond to the other things later, but probably not.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Othin

[arvilino]

I don't think that's necessarily true. For instance, I wouldn't say that adding Warp staves really improves FE11 because it completely trivialises the game. Difficulty, challenge, and strategy are rendered moot by Warp staves.

And making games more complex doesn't necessarily make them better, either. Fire Emblem is already an extremely complex game, and I don't think that more options are really needed in it.

Warp staves remove most of the game(turns chapters into 1-2 turn finishes) which is negative to the game. But Class Change isn't as comparable, it offers more options for characters and is limited(by the [recruited version of initial class]+1 limit) and can dig characters out of a hole of being unusable.

If anything, stuff like Warp Staves should be a 2nd run bonus and Mechanics like Class Change should be there from the get-go.

Edited October 14, 2011 by arvilino

[Snowy_One]

Personal list:

Reflexive enemy list: Don't set enemies aside from bosses or key foes. If people use a lot of axe-users, increase the numbers of lance and sword users on the map. If they use magic, make them fight more knights and high-RES units and so forth. That way, they don't get punished for using the units they want, but are encouraged to do more than 'spam axes' or something.

Better-balanced weapons: It sucks when there is little point in using specialty weapons (they suck except against one type of unit type weapons blow) and games where one weapon-type is dominate REALLY blow.

Free-flowing supports, but still support convo's: Let our units support anyone, but let certain pairings allow for full-on conversations and paired endings.

PAIRED ENDINGS DAMNIT!: FE10 complaint, but Ike and Ranulf get a ending while Zihark and Ilyana don't?

Removal of the shove-system: It didn't help much. Just let it go.

More active skills: In FE9/10, most skills either were passive (Celerity always was active), passive skills that activated with a certain percent chance (adept activated at SKL/2 chance IIRC), or very rarely actually active (Gamble). When they were active, they sucked too much to be worth activating. Give us skills that we can activate during the Player Phase, but carry some sort of penalty. Example: Arcanium: User gets to add their MAG and STR attacks together, but gets attacks on the DEF/RES on the EP. That would reward characters who are balanced out and make it so MAG isn't useless for melee-fighters (outside of a select few) and RES is useless when not fighting magic users (which are far from a enemy-majority). Hell, you could even invert it and force them to use their lower offensive stat, but in return get to use the higher defensive one!

More status-effects: Make us actually think about how to best use seemingly bizzare skills. Make charging in blindly HURT!

No/better Laguz: They sucked in FE9 because of transform gauge, and either sucked or rocked in FE10 depending on if their were royals or not. Just drop the mechanic and give us a concrete reward for being in normal form and able to switch at will.

Customizable characters: Maybe not a lot, but maybe giving us the option to 'train' characters in certain stats which gives them a extra 10% growth in one, but 10% lower growth in another would be interesting.

Replayable maps: Idea! Replay mode! After beating a map, you can replay it with a party of appropriate level for the map.

Challenge maps: No ties to the story, but meant to be outright grueling. Average stats for all units (what their average stats would be at that level) and so-forth. No story focus, just sheer gruel.

No-RNG-levelups mode: Sort of like fixed. Every level-up the character gains their growth in a stat. When it's higher than .5, you gain a level-up, but it keeps going behind the scenes. EX: Larry has a 40% STR growth and a base of 1 STR. At level 1, his STR is 1. He levels up and now his STR is 1.4. In combat this functions as if he only had 1 STR. Next level-up, he has 1.8. This functions like he had 2. Next level he has 2.2 STR, which functions as if he had 2 STR, and so forth.

[Dark Sage]

Honestly, I probably wouldn't care about reclassing if it was only as a second playthrough bonus, separating it from the "main" part of the game and making it just a bonus which could be more easily considered non-canon compared to the first playthrough. I wouldn't be too happy, but I'd feel much more comfortable just ignoring it that way.

And no, FE really isn't that complex, especially recent games. I barely have to think while playing an FE game not made by Kaga, and those games are all quite simple in terms of features compared to other games I play.

Might have time to respond to the other things later, but probably not.

I'm sort of appalled by this method of thinking. It's basically creator worship of Shunzou Kaga and I hate creator worship because it tends to make people shitheads, like nearly every Silent Hill fan in existence. Kaga's games weren't perfect. In fact, FE1-4 were quite flawed games, FE4 less so. FE4 was a great game IMO, but it was supremely unbalanced and not always in a fun way. It was also often slow and grueling to play as well. I don't think Kaga made FE5 (I believe he was working on TRS) btw.

I don't think many of FE5's mechanics should return. Rescuing and capturing are the best options, but stuff like movement stars are quite random and unpredictable and PCC is sort of a pointless mechanic IMO. I find that the mechanics actually work rather well in FE5, but only capturing and rescuing I believe can belong in another FE game without feeling out of place.

On another note, I'd like an FE game where thieves are very useful. Some playable monsters would be cool too I guess. Can't think of much else right now, but I'll post any that occur to me.

[CrashGordon94]

No it doesn't. Hand your cart to someone to play the first run if you're that annoyed about it. It gives incentive for a game to be replayed. And it's a nice midground between "reclass is awesome yay!" and "no we hate reclass >|". I don't see the problem with unlocking gameplay. Hell, if playing FE7 10 times will unlock capture, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But as it stands, it doesn't. So I'm not gonna play FE7 10 times.

Yes it does. You shouldn't have to beat the game in order to get that should've been there from the start. That's not an acceptable way to encourage more playthroughs, things like Trial Maps and alternative routes and Gaidens are. And no, having someone else do the first run does NOT help, I should be able to have access to all the main game stuff from my very own FIRST playthrough.

I just keep saying this because it REALLY irks me, I think the way FE12 unlocked Male Reclass sets was an awful design decision, they really should've been unlocked from the start. Same with Pelleas and Sephiran in FE10, AND the Bands in FE9.

[Thor Odinson]

Then that's just you. I'm not going to go out and buy a game that I'm only going to play once. From what I have gathered, most people are totally neutral or are in favor of it, so it would be a viable marketing strategy. Not to mention it'd really calm this shitstorm down a notch. Don't like? don't play it then. It's like reclass. Don't like it? Don't use it. Or just deal like I have dealt with terribly balanced con in the gba games these years.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Luminescent Kitty

[CrashGordon94]

I'm not going to abandon an entire game because of one awful feature.

Tell me Lumi, would you play the game more than once if there were Trial Maps, splitting routes and more than one story? That's a much better way to arbitrarily lock features that should be there from the start.

[dondon151]

And no, FE really isn't that complex, especially recent games. I barely have to think while playing an FE game not made by Kaga, and those games are all quite simple in terms of features compared to other games I play.

This gave me a good chuckle. I'm not sure if Othin realizes that both DS FE games are remakes of FE games made by Shouzou Kaga.

Certainly, I didn't have to think very much at all when playing FE4, and FE6 required more brainpower than FE5.

[Othin]

I'm sort of appalled by this method of thinking. It's basically creator worship of Shunzou Kaga and I hate creator worship because it tends to make people shitheads, like nearly every Silent Hill fan in existence. Kaga's games weren't perfect. In fact, FE1-4 were quite flawed games, FE4 less so. FE4 was a great game IMO, but it was supremely unbalanced and not always in a fun way. It was also often slow and grueling to play as well. I don't think Kaga made FE5 (I believe he was working on TRS) btw.

I don't think many of FE5's mechanics should return. Rescuing and capturing are the best options, but stuff like movement stars are quite random and unpredictable and PCC is sort of a pointless mechanic IMO. I find that the mechanics actually work rather well in FE5, but only capturing and rescuing I believe can belong in another FE game without feeling out of place.

On another note, I'd like an FE game where thieves are very useful. Some playable monsters would be cool too I guess. Can't think of much else right now, but I'll post any that occur to me.

I don't worship Kaga. I worship FE4, FE5, and Berwick Saga. I choose to mention Kaga because he's the best way to associate those three games.

This gave me a good chuckle. I'm not sure if Othin realizes that both DS FE games are remakes of FE games made by Shouzou Kaga.

Certainly, I didn't have to think very much at all when playing FE4, and FE6 required more brainpower than FE5.

I suggest reading my post a bit more carefully and noting that I did not say anything about the quality of the games that were made by Kaga, as I fully recognize that they can be either bad or good. The only things I spoke about were the games that were not made by Kaga. I choose all of my words carefully, and this was no exception.

Furthermore, I do not believe I have said anything about the overall quality of FE11 and FE12 in the first place. In fact, I believe I have specifically noted that while I despise the reclass system, I do not think it hugely impacts my overall view of the quality of the respective games, and I think FE12 in particular appears to be an excellent game that I intend to play eventually. But back to my first point on this subject, I believe I have only discussed the reclass system, which was not at all implemented by Kaga, so what relevance could it possibly have? If you're going to take a break from the argument to challenge me personally, I suggest you try thinking before you post and not make such a spectacular fool out of yourself again.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Othin

[Paperblade]

There is no way that reclassing does not make the game easier. Reclassing gives the player more usable options. More usable options equates to easier games.

ftfy

[Rewjeo]

I don't worship Kaga. I worship FE4, FE5, and Berwick Saga. I choose to mention Kaga because he's the best way to associate those three games.

So you just meant that you have to think while playing FE4 but not FE6 HM, HHM, RD HM, H5, or Lunatic Reverse? Really?

[Thor Odinson]

Tell me Lumi, would you play the game more than once if there were Trial Maps, splitting routes and more than one story? That's a much better way to arbitrarily lock features that should be there from the start.

Honestly, if the gameplay sucks, I won't. If I have to play something more than once to get gameplay features I like, then so be it. I never even play trial maps anyway. I like capture, and I like reclass, and say the next game have those unlocked at secondplaythrough+, then I will play it to unlock it. Simple.

And as I said many times, it's a good compromise to calm this shitstorm that STILL haven't stopped. It's getting ridiculous now.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Luminescent Kitty

[Phoenix Wright]

I don't think that's necessarily true. For instance, I wouldn't say that adding Warp staves really improves FE11 because it completely trivialises the game. Difficulty, challenge, and strategy are rendered moot by Warp staves.

And making games more complex doesn't necessarily make them better, either. Fire Emblem is already an extremely complex game, and I don't think that more options are really needed in it.

But...the choice of whether or not to use these things exist. Also, adding good mechanics can only add to the overall enjoyment of a game. The reclassing system is an excellent new mechanic. If you don't like it, though, don't use it. You, and only you, can make that choice.

Any argument against the reclass system is moot because you have to the choice to use it or not. It's like complaining about Casual mode because your units come back--choose Classic!

[CrashGordon94]

Honestly, if the gameplay sucks, I won't. If I have to play something more than once to get gameplay features I like, then so be it. I never even play trial maps anyway. I like capture, and I like reclass, and say the next game have those unlocked at secondplaythrough+, then I will play it to unlock it. Simple.

And as I said many times, it's a good compromise to calm this shitstorm that STILL haven't stopped. It's getting ridiculous now.

But if all those cool features were available, wouldn't that gameplay not suck?

If you love capture and reclass, then wouldn't it be more fun to be able to have fun with them right from the get go rather than to have to do a run without them first?

Besides, even if you never played it more than once a a result, it'd be better to have one really cool playthrough than to have to drag yourself through the game in order to have a cool playthrough. Not to mention that, if you only ever replayed the game to unlock those things and try them out, then you're not going to play the game a lot more than you wouldn't normally, and if you did, you very well wouldn't be ENJOYING IT because if you were then you wouldn't need the unlocks to force you to do it.

No it's not, it isn't even remotely reasonable, if you want it to stop you can back down and let me win the argument.

[Aethereal]

But if all those cool features were available, wouldn't that gameplay not suck?

If you love capture and reclass, then wouldn't it be more fun to be able to have fun with them right from the get go rather than to have to do a run without them first?

Besides, even if you never played it more than once a a result, it'd be better to have one really cool playthrough than to have to drag yourself through the game in order to have a cool playthrough. Not to mention that, if you only ever replayed the game to unlock those things and try them out, then you're not going to play the game a lot more than you wouldn't normally, and if you did, you very well wouldn't be ENJOYING IT because if you were then you wouldn't need the unlocks to force you to do it.

No it's not, it isn't even remotely reasonable, if you want it to stop you can back down and let me win the argument.

Giving an incentive to replay a game does not make the initial playthrough of a game bad. A huge part of Fire Emblem's appeal, imo, is good replay value. You don't "drag yourself" through your first playthrough of Radiant Dawn, you enjoy it, and when you go back and find out more about Sephiran, you enjoy that you gained a little extra, instead of the plot being a complete copy. Well, maybe you didn't but I enjoyed my first playthrough of RD, and I enjoyed playthroughs after that as well.

I think you made a typo or something in the sentence that starts "Not to mention" because it's confusing the crap out of me. If it means what I think it means, then you're talking about some one making really dumb decisions. There are no Fire Emblem games where you're missing out on a huge portion of the game by not playing it a second time (Besides having different parents in FE4, different supports, etc). If, to keep the RD example going, some one finished RD then found out "Oh, hey, there's a little bit of extra stuff that you can get from playing again", but didn't think they would enjoy the playing it again, they really should just put the game down. If you aren't enjoying a video game, why in the world would you play? This is a pretty bad argument. :/

[arvilino]

Honestly, if the gameplay sucks, I won't. If I have to play something more than once to get gameplay features I like, then so be it. I never even play trial maps anyway. I like capture, and I like reclass, and say the next game have those unlocked at secondplaythrough+, then I will play it to unlock it. Simple.

And as I said many times, it's a good compromise to calm this shitstorm that STILL haven't stopped. It's getting ridiculous now.

I don't think it's a good compromise to lock out features like that from the games first run.

If Capture was an unlockable feature for the second playthrough, what would that mean?

The game would have to give you access to enough weapons to get any player through the game without this feature on the first run. Which means all the feature does for you is allow you a gigantic surpluss of weapons and items that you don't really need for additional runs. The feature couldn't be as well implemented as if it was available on a first run basis. Taking FE5 as an example, without using capture weapons will be sparce thus adding strategy of needing to decide what to capture for what weapons for who and when.

[Othin]

So you just meant that you have to think while playing FE4 but not FE6 HM, HHM, RD HM, H5, or Lunatic Reverse? Really?

Never played FE6 HM or Lunatic Reverse. I've never found any of the others particularly thought-provoking. Same basic strategies, only taking longer.

[CrashGordon94]

Giving an incentive to replay a game does not make the initial playthrough of a game bad. A huge part of Fire Emblem's appeal, imo, is good replay value. You don't "drag yourself" through your first playthrough of Radiant Dawn, you enjoy it, and when you go back and find out more about Sephiran, you enjoy that you gained a little extra, instead of the plot being a complete copy. Well, maybe you didn't but I enjoyed my first playthrough of RD, and I enjoyed playthroughs after that as well.

Except that it does make the first playthrough literally and technically weaker because you don't have access to something that you did the first time.

TO take the FE10 example, wouldn't it have been fun to get Seph the first time? Yes it would! If you're going to enjoy it again, you can do it while the game stays the same and if not then you're still not because the feature wasn't enough, and if it WAS enough it should've have been there the first time to make the first run more enjoyable.

If you like futer runs being different, then alternate routes and different stories work infinitely better. What do you think would be a better motivation to play the game again: FE10 unlocking a people of random units (one of whom would be more logically necessary on the first run anyway because he's an Endgame crutch) and FE12 defuxing the male Reclass sets to how they should've been initially or FE7 letting you play Hector's story and FE8 letting you take the other Lord's route? The latter is obviously a much better technique.

I don't think it's a good compromise to lock out features like that from the games first run.

If Capture was an unlockable feature for the second playthrough, what would that mean?

The game would have to give you access to enough weapons to get any player through the game without this feature on the first run. Which means all the feature does for you is allow you a gigantic surpluss of weapons and items that you don't really need for additional runs. The feature couldn't be as well implemented as if it was available on a first run basis. Taking FE5 as an example, without using capture weapons will be sparce thus adding strategy of needing to decide what to capture for what weapons for who and when.

See! Someone understands what I'm trying to say!

[Thor Odinson]

I don't think it's a good compromise to lock out features like that from the games first run.

If Capture was an unlockable feature for the second playthrough, what would that mean?

The game would have to give you access to enough weapons to get any player through the game without this feature on the first run. Which means all the feature does for you is allow you a gigantic surpluss of weapons and items that you don't really need for additional runs. The feature couldn't be as well implemented as if it was available on a first run basis. Taking FE5 as an example, without using capture weapons will be sparce thus adding strategy of needing to decide what to capture for what weapons for who and when.

Capture is not an optional feature, however. You start with no money and you NEED capture to get any extra weapons. Reclass is completely optional.

And CG, you refer to this measly argument as a shitstorm? Don't think so highly of yourself. I'm talking about those several-paragraph-long bantering on reclass that is happening alongside this discussion.

I don't have anything against reclass as firstplaythrough thing, personally, if you're getting that vibe. I'm just saying it as a potential solution to that other argument that's happening in a parallel conversation, because quite honestly, it's getting ridiculous. And I honestly don't care if it's second or third or nth playthrough. If I really wanted it, then I'll work for it. Then people can stop bitching about how reclassing's ruining their story because it's no longer existent on the first run. And maybe finally see it as what it is: A completely optional mechanic that no one is forced to use.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Luminescent Kitty

[CT075]

To be fair, the capture example with FE5 isn't really a good one. Capture is a part of the story. Not just the gameplay. You have units like Treck, or Misha whom you have to capture to recruit, for example. Reclass... is it EVER mentioned in ANY part of the story, EVER? The tutorial does not count. I'm not even going to get into how much more complicated capture makes gameplay, since you could make that argument for reclass as well.

A better example would be if you could not save Evayle until the second playthrough, since that has an effect that is roughly as minor as Sephiran/Pelleas. Hell, at least there's some legit story reason as for why you could/couldn't get her (the Kia staff was taken away or not, etc. etc.). There is literally NO REASON WHATSOEVER for reclass to exist. Honestly, I think having it unlocked for new game+ is the idea solution.

EDIT: And, Crash, Sephiran is essential for RD? Don't make me laugh, I've never bothered using Sephiran for anything, ever, even on HM. That Ashera Staff? hahahahahaha, shiny!

Edited October 15, 2011 by 王運鈴

[Thor Odinson]

So I was out hanging the laundry, and I thought of another idea.

Reclass mode. Like Casual vs Classic.

Now you can pick for an utterly optional mechanic to even be available or not! Totally redundant, but hell, if it will end this BS...

[CrashGordon94]

Now THAT'S a good compromise!

[Phoenix Wright]

There's already a choice like that...they just don't have to use it during the regular game.

[Othin]

Keep Casual Mode, make Reclass Casual-only. Separates it from the game's real story and gameplay while still making it readily available.

Are we all happy now?

Edited October 15, 2011 by Othin

[Phoenix Wright]

Keep Casual Mode, make Reclass Casual-only. Separates it from the game's real story and gameplay while still making it readily available.

Are we all happy now?

No. I want the choice to use it on any game mode. It's silly to have this mechanic universally available, and then in the very next game it becomes limited. It doesn't make any sense.