Mechanics that you want

[Celice]

There is literally NO REASON WHATSOEVER for reclass to exist.

To beef-up the game play of a rudimentary, 20-year-old game. And also, as its own gimmick the series is known for having for each of the different environments.

Your literalism might be blocking your view.

[Anouleth]

Lots of people like Reclass, so obviously it's not the case that there is literally no reason. And we can't read IS' minds. They might have had very good reasons. I highly doubt that they picked the idea for Reclass out of a hat.

[Momo]

So I was out hanging the laundry, and I thought of another idea.

Reclass mode. Like Casual vs Classic.

Now you can pick for an utterly optional mechanic to even be available or not! Totally redundant, but hell, if it will end this BS...

Um, why would they do this? You can play Non-Reclass mode by simply not using it. There's no point at all in making it a different mode.

Keep Casual Mode, make Reclass Casual-only. Separates it from the game's real story and gameplay while still making it readily available.

Are we all happy now?

Really, why do you want people to have less options? Why? People like Reclass and want to be able to use it whenever they can. Why do you want people to have less fun?

[Aethereal]

Except that it does make the first playthrough literally and technically weaker because you don't have access to something that you did the first time.

TO take the FE10 example, wouldn't it have been fun to get Seph the first time? Yes it would! If you're going to enjoy it again, you can do it while the game stays the same and if not then you're still not because the feature wasn't enough, and if it WAS enough it should've have been there the first time to make the first run more enjoyable.

If you like futer runs being different, then alternate routes and different stories work infinitely better. What do you think would be a better motivation to play the game again: FE10 unlocking a people of random units (one of whom would be more logically necessary on the first run anyway because he's an Endgame crutch) and FE12 defuxing the male Reclass sets to how they should've been initially or FE7 letting you play Hector's story and FE8 letting you take the other Lord's route? The latter is obviously a much better technique.

I understand that it makes it weaker, but in a pretty negligible way. If you think a playthrough of FE12 would be significantly more fun with the new classes to reclass to, or that FE10 would be much funner if Pelleas and Sephiran live, then I think you're putting too much stock in those two very minor changes.

You're also contradicting yourself. You lose much much more by not seeing an entire chunk of the plot on the first playthrough than you do by not having Sephiran, or not being able to reclass. If you want everything up front in your first playthrough, so you don't feel forced to replay, what do you think is a bigger difference. Pelleas' contributions to the story, Sephiran's memory scene and epilogue(minor changes to a few chapters), or the entire Grado/Jehanna campaign,(6 entirely new chapters in a game with 30) and some interaction with Lyon changed (minor changes to a few chapters)?

To answer your question, I like the latter, because I love having new stuff to replay the game with. I usually replay Fire Emblem games, and I enjoy doing it, so having changes is fun. However, I don't really see how you can think not having Pelleas/Sephiran, or a few classes to reclass to are nearly as large as missing chapters. If you don't want to feel "forced" to replay, or to "drag through" to get a replay feature, you definitely wouldn't like Hector mode, or the choice between the siblings.

And yeah, if they decide to implement reclass, it doesn't make any sense to me to make it a different option, as it's already optional.

[Othin]

No. I want the choice to use it on any game mode. It's silly to have this mechanic universally available, and then in the very next game it becomes limited. It doesn't make any sense.

In FE4, Re-Move could be used only after attacking. In FE5, it was extended to be usable after any action. In FE6, it was changed again to be usable after any action except attacking.

The FE series does strange stuff with its mechanics. This would be no stranger than anything it's done before.

Really, why do you want people to have less options? Why? People like Reclass and want to be able to use it whenever they can. Why do you want people to have less fun?

I want Reclass to be recognized as separate from the "normal" way to play the game, so that the game's official story is not tainted with its nonsense and so that the game recognizes a distinction in playing through it without using Reclass. This is one way of doing that while still making the option fully available on every playthrough, just as it always has been; there's nothing to complain about, and if you insist on doing so, would you care to suggest a better method that would accomplish the same goal?

Really, this would give both of us exactly what we want. If you want to use Reclass under that system, you can just play on Casual Mode and reset whenever a character dies as if you weren't doing so, making it function exactly the same as otherwise. Or if you want to play with deaths, bench them permanently if they "die", like a Pokemon Nuzlocke run. It may seem arbitrary, but it's no different than not using Reclass on a mode where it's offered.

[Momo]

But if reclass is still in the game, that means Canas can still be something that isn't a dark magic user, which is exactly what you didn't want. You're backpedaling now and just want to be contrary because you don't like Reclass. If you don't like it, do not use it, don't punish other people by making it a hassle to use.

[Othin]

I try to be reasonable and suggest a compromise and you accuse me of backpedaling... then demand I throw away the point entirely. What the hell do you want?

And no, I hardly think it's a hassle to move the cursor to select "Casual Mode" before pressing A to start a file.

[Phoenix Wright]

In FE4, Re-Move could be used only after attacking. In FE5, it was extended to be usable after any action. In FE6, it was changed again to be usable after any action except attacking.

The FE series does strange stuff with its mechanics. This would be no stranger than anything it's done before.

It would very strange and very silly. Re-move wasn't removed (:P) in double-EXP mode in FE5. It stayed.

The core mechanic stayed in these games. It was not removed for any one game mode, or any one game type. It was available universally. Which is as it should be.

I want Reclass to be recognized as separate from the "normal" way to play the game, so that the game's official story is not tainted with its nonsense and so that the game recognizes a distinction in playing through it without using Reclass. This is one way of doing that while still making the option fully available on every playthrough, just as it always has been

Who defines the "normal way" to play the game? You sound like those people who play Call of Duty and come up with arbitrary rules and limits so as to make the game harder for new people, and easier for skilled players. I'm not liking the elitism, brah.

And yes of course, changing the class of a unit "taints the story." You do realize that this makes little sense, yes? General's are not actually generals, knights can sometimes be Fighters, commanders can be Swordmasters. No one cares what the classes are in the story. If Joshua were a mercenary in FE8, no one would give a shit.

[T]here's nothing to complain about, and if you insist on doing so, would you care to suggest a better method that would accomplish the same goal?

I suggest that people who do not like the reclass system not use the reclass system.

Really, this would give both of us exactly what we want. If you want to use Reclass under that system, you can just play on Casual Mode and reset whenever a character dies as if you weren't doing so, making it function exactly the same as otherwise. Or if you want to play with deaths, bench them permanently if they "die", like a Pokemon Nuzlocke run. It may seem arbitrary, but it's no different than not using Reclass on a mode where it's offered.

It's very different. Because you refuse to have the choice, you would rather have us go through the hassle of playing "Casual" mode just so we can use reclass. How about---*gasp*--you choose to not fucking use it?! There is absolutely no need for a compromise because this is a non-issue. Just don't use reclass. Don't use it. Use it. It. .

EDIT: You are not being reasonable at all, despite your efforts, sir.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Phoenix Wright

[Othin]

It would very strange and very silly. Re-move wasn't removed (:P) in double-EXP mode in FE5. It stayed.

The core mechanic stayed in these games. It was not removed for any one game mode, or any one game type. It was available universally. Which is as it should be.

Who defines the "normal way" to play the game? You sound like those people who play Call of Duty and come up with arbitrary rules and limits so as to make the game harder for new people, and easier for skilled players. I'm not liking the elitism, brah.

And yes of course, changing the class of a unit "taints the story." You do realize that this makes little sense, yes? General's are not actually generals, knights can sometimes be Fighters, commanders can be Swordmasters. No one cares what the classes are in the story. If Joshua were a mercenary in FE8, no one would give a shit.

I suggest that people who do not like the reclass system not use the reclass system.

It's very different. Because you refuse to have the choice, you would rather have us go through the hassle of playing "Casual" mode just so we can use reclass. How about---*gasp*--you choose to not fucking use it?! There is absolutely no need for a compromise because this is a non-issue. Just don't use reclass. Don't use it. Use it. It. .

EDIT: You are not being reasonable at all, despite your efforts, sir.

Core mechanics have never changed between modes in any FE game other than FE12. Unless you count features such as the weapon triangle being removed in FE10 Hard Mode, which is precisely the same situation, although I admit that particular change was not a good one.

In all of the other FE games, playing the game means playing the characters as they are. Extending that to FE11 and FE12 is perfectly reasonable.

How laughable that you would make a straw man argument nitpicking word meanings and then make a grammar mistake. The names of the classes are not an issue here; the issue is the capabilities, that characters can learn to use any fighting or movement style competently in an instant and at the same time forget everything else.

You have yet to explain how it is any more of a hassle for you to play Casual Mode and play it as if you were playing Standard Mode (or whatever it's called; I don't really care) than it would be for me to play the current "Reclass Mode" and play it as if I was playing the hypothetical "Non-Reclass Mode".

[Marthur]

Lots of people like Reclass, so obviously it's not the case that there is literally no reason. And we can't read IS' minds. They might have had very good reasons. I highly doubt that they picked the idea for Reclass out of a hat.

http://fire-emblem.com/shadowdragon/interview/interview3.html

Sakurai

Also, in terms of new features, there’s reclassing Units. This idea was stunning. Such a bold step in game development surprised me.

Narihiro

This was also our answer to people who may react and feel this game is too hard. For example, by changing a Knight to a Mage, etc., you can adjust the balance of your own forces. From Chapter 4 onward, you can use this feature to change the composition of your forces, and to prepare before going into battle.

Sakurai

For instance, if you’ve lost your Knights, you’ll suffer through battle because you don’t have anyone playing defense for your forces. From among your remaining Units you can convert someone to a Knight to shield others.

Narihiro

So even if you lose an important Unit, by changing a Unit’s type, it becomes easier to battle. And in this game there’s various ways you can play... For example, some players create forces using only female characters. Except for Marth, all of the Units are girls! (laughing) Even with that kind of army if you can change the Unit-types, the fighting will become much easier.

[Phoenix Wright]

Core mechanics have never changed between modes in any FE game other than FE12. Unless you count features such as the weapon triangle being removed in FE10 Hard Mode, which is precisely the same situation, although I admit that particular change was not a good one.

Exactly. They've never changed. And when one did in FE10, it was a bad idea.

In all of the other FE games, playing the game means playing the characters as they are. Extending that to FE11 and FE12 is perfectly reasonable.

Yeah, it is. So don't use it.

How laughable that you would make a straw man argument nitpicking word meanings and then make a grammar mistake. The names of the classes are not an issue here; the issue is the capabilities, that characters can learn to use any fighting or movement style competently in an instant and at the same time forget everything else.

It's interesting that you don't see my question valid. Who defines the "normal way" to play? Is it elitists like you, or newbies, or experienced players? The answer is up to the individual. You have no say in how to tell someone else to play the "normal way." There is no normal way.

Holy shit! I had made a grammar mistake! Where?

OK, big deal if their weapon knowledge fluctuates. No one cares. Games aren't made to be mirror images of reality.

You have yet to explain how it is any more of a hassle for you to play Casual Mode and play it as if you were playing Standard Mode (or whatever it's called; I don't really care) than it would be for me to play the current "Reclass Mode" and play it as if I was playing the hypothetical "Non-Reclass Mode".

Now I'm sure you're trolling.

You're requesting that the coders:

--Take out reclass mechanic from Classic mode

You're requesting that players:

--Choose Casual mode, regardless of the mode they want to play

When you can just:

--Ignore that the mechanic even exists

Edited October 15, 2011 by Phoenix Wright

[Othin]

Exactly. They've never changed, and when it did in FE10, it was a bad idea.

Yeah, it is. So don't use it.

It's interesting that you don't see my question valid. Who defines the "normal way" to play? Is it elitists like you, or newbies, or experienced players? The answer is up to the individual. You have no say in how to tell someone else to play the "normal way." There is no normal way.

Holy shit! I had made a grammar mistake! Where?

OK, big deal if their weapon knowledge fluctuates. No one cares. Games aren't made to be mirror images of reality.

Now I'm sure you're trolling.

You're requesting that the coders:

--Take out reclass mechanic from Classic mode

You're requesting that players:

--Choose Casual mode, regardless of the mode they want to play

When you can just:

--Ignore that the mechanic even exists

False. They changed in FE12, in Casual Mode and in Lunatic Reverse Mode.

So give each group a mode to satisfy them. Simple as that.

General's are not actually generals

I'm honestly appalled that you couldn't see the mistake for yourself by checking your own post. Do you seriously not know the difference between a plural and a contraction?

As I've explained many times, I'm requesting not reality, but simply characters with believable attributes (within their setting) which are substantially demonstrated in the game.

The game already checks the mode selected when a character dies to determine whether or not the character has died permanently. All the coders would need to do is extent that check to the base when you want to select Reclass, and make the option not available if it is not Casual mode. Not that difficult.

And all you have to do is, as I have already explained, absolutely nothing. You continue to act as though playing Classic Mode as though it were non-Classic Mode is somehow more of a hassle than playing Reclass Mode as though it were non-Reclass Mode, yet I have already explained why that is false and you have not provided any evidence to the contrary.

[Mikethfc]

And all you have to do is, as I have already explained, absolutely nothing.

Its funny cos that's exactly what he's suggesting you do with reclass.

[dondon151]

I want Reclass to be recognized as separate from the "normal" way to play the game, so that the game's official story is not tainted with its nonsense and so that the game recognizes a distinction in playing through it without using Reclass.

The lack of reclassing makes completing certain tasks nigh impossible on FE3 DS H3. I would suggest that it is the "normal" way to play through the game on that difficulty setting.

[Phoenix Wright]

False. They changed in FE12, in Casual Mode and in Lunatic Reverse Mode.

I forgot about Lunatic Reverse. The two different systems of play aren't very core-changing (because, again, it's two different modes of play). It's just going to bring more sales, theoretically.

So give each group a mode to satisfy them. Simple as that.

This is inefficient. When a mechanic is avoidable, it should be universal. I cannot fathom why you cannot comprehend this. Reclass doesn't need its (hey look, I do know the difference between contractions and possessives at least) own mode of gameplay. Just ignore it and you'll be fine.

I'm honestly appalled that you couldn't see the mistake for yourself by checking your own post. Do you seriously not know the difference between a plural and a contraction?

I should be executed for having a typo in my post. Indeed, sir.

I don't check my posts. I'm all natur-al, man, and if I overlook a mistake then I overlook a mistake. My edits, usually, are when I need to add more sentences, clear up what I feel is not articulated well enough, fix errors in sentence structure, et cetera. I do not see an accidental apostrophe as world-breaking.

Fact is, though, you've had mistakes everywhere. Numbering in the thousands, possibly tens of thousands. I'm just that guy. That guy that doesn't dwell on minor mistakes, know what I's-a sayin', mon?

As I've explained many times, I'm requesting not reality, but simply characters with believable attributes (within their setting) which are substantially demonstrated in the game.

Then don't use it. For someone like you who cares about these things, you simply shouldn't use it. Why limit players to selecting modes when you can just ignore it?

The game already checks the mode selected when a character dies to determine whether or not the character has died permanently. All the coders would need to do is extent that check to the base when you want to select Reclass, and make the option not available if it is not Casual mode. Not that difficult.

So, indeed, coders would have to add in coding just to make you happy. In contrast, they won't have to do anything and all you need to do is ignore it.

Lots of sense in your argument; I can barely keep up with your magnificent points.

And all you have to do is, as I have already explained, absolutely nothing. You continue to act as though playing Classic Mode as though it were non-Classic Mode is somehow more of a hassle than playing Reclass Mode as though it were non-Reclass Mode, yet I have already explained why that is false and you have not provided any evidence to the contrary.

All you have to do is absolutely nothing. That's it. Just play the game. That mechanic doesn't even exist for you. It never did and never will.

Your suggestion is inefficient.

What evidence is there to be had? It's just a matter of efficiency. Should people who do not like the reclass system ignore it, or should those who do be forced to play Casual just to use it?

The correct answer is that players who do not agree with the reclass system should just ignore it. It's easiest for everybody.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Phoenix Wright

[Thor Odinson]

Um, why would they do this? You can play Non-Reclass mode by simply not using it. There's no point at all in making it a different mode.

Obviously you didn't get my point. I'd personally prefer that reclass stays the way it is, but the redundancy of my idea (which I even said so in my previous post) was to drive the idea home to the people bitching about reclass that it's TOTALLY optional, and in making something totally redundant like an optional feature EVEN MORE optional, maybe they'll finally get it and stop trying to ruin reclass for those of us who really like it.

[Jediabiwan]

Sorry to be a bit off topic, but I was wondering how many of you guys support a map like in FE2 and FE8 with repeatable battles and stuff like that? Looks like we could be getting something like that from the video, so I was wondering what your thoughts were.

[Celice]

Response: happiez

[BwdYeti]

So, indeed, coders would have to add in coding just to make you happy. In contrast, they won't have to do anything and all you need to do is ignore it.

As far as I know we're still talking about what they should do for FE13, not what they should somehow go back and change for FE11/12. So

*So, indeed, the coders would have to add in no coding at all just to make you happy because reclass doesn't exist. In contrast, they would have to code the entire reclass system and all you need to do is ignore it.

http://fire-emblem.c...interview3.html

This was also our answer to people who may react and feel this game is too hard.

xd reclassing is literally easy mode

I'm opposed to the idea of tying reclassing to casual mode so that if you want reclassing you're required to have no permanent death, but I am really liking the idea of no reclass, permadeath mode being Classic mode, since... well the name says it all doesn't it

[BrightBow]

Why don't we make casual mode the only to play? You don't have to use units who already died after all.

We could also have players decide whether they want to take damage from attacks or not, or whether having your units attack will reduce weapon usage or not, or whether you can use swords to attack in melee or ten squares apart...

There is no way such options would not improve gameplay. More usable options equates to better gameplay. Always.

It's time to finally relief game developers from the burden of actually designing a game by just putting he player into complete control of absolutely everything.

Edited October 15, 2011 by BrightBow

[Phoenix Wright]

As far as I know we're still talking about what they should do for FE13, not what they should somehow go back and change for FE11/12. So

*So, indeed, the coders would have to add in no coding at all just to make you happy because reclass doesn't exist. In contrast, they would have to code the entire reclass system and all you need to do is ignore it.

I'm opposed to the idea of tying reclassing to casual mode so that if you want reclassing you're required to have no permanent death, but I am really liking the idea of no reclass, permadeath mode being Classic mode, since... well the name says it all doesn't it

Like Celice has posted time and time again, FE 3DS is in its latest stages of development, so if the mechanic is in the game, they'd definitely have to delay the game to do what Othin suggested. As far as I know, we have no proof whether the reclass system exists or not, so I do not think you are in a position to say it does not exist.

The second sentence makes no sense at all.

Why should the reclass system be taken out? Who cares if the game is "easy mode," as long as it has harder modes of play? Gamers that have never played Fire Emblem before will enjoy this game even more if the reclass system, a Casual mode, and harder modes of difficulty all existed within this game.

I'm not getting how people can disagree with an optional game mechanic. I barely used the reclass system in FE1DS and FE3DS, but it was always nice to have it. It added variety to the game, which is lacking in the other ones that I have played (after you've beaten them plenty of times).

Why don't we make casual mode the only to play? You don't have to use units who already died after all.

We could also have players decide whether they want to take damage from attacks or not, or whether having your units attack will reduce weapon usage or not, or whether you can use swords to attack in melee or ten squares apart...

There is no way such options would not improve gameplay. More usable options equates to better gameplay. Always.

It's time to finally relief game developers from the burden of actually designing a game by just putting he player into complete control of absolutely everything.

In order to argue the extremes, the argument has to be logical. Yours is not.

I am not suggesting that players become the developers. All I'm saying is that the people who are against the reclass system don't make sense because they can just ignore it.

But anyway, nice idea. If I ever felt like it, I would just become god and massacre the game in a few minutes.

EDIT:

@Jediabiwan: I would love it haha.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Phoenix Wright

[Momo]

Why don't we make casual mode the only to play? You don't have to use units who already died after all.

We could also have players decide whether they want to take damage from attacks or not, or whether having your units attack will reduce weapon usage or not, or whether you can use swords to attack in melee or ten squares apart...

There is no way such options would not improve gameplay. More usable options equates to better gameplay. Always.

It's time to finally relief game developers from the burden of actually designing a game by just putting he player into complete control of absolutely everything.

Did you also agree with Sakamoto's "If we allow for different control schemes, we have failed as designers" stance?

[BrightBow]

Did you also agree with Sakamoto's "If we allow for different control schemes, we have failed as designers" stance?

You mean the guy from the Metroid series? I haven't played "Other M" so I don't really know the context. I will try to google it.

Edited October 15, 2011 by BrightBow

[Othin]

Like Celice has posted time and time again, FE 3DS is in its latest stages of development, so if the mechanic is in the game, they'd definitely have to delay the game to do what Othin suggested.

You could say that about any suggestion in this thread; no one's telling the developers to do anything specific with FE13 at this moment. We're just stating what we'd like to either have happened or to eventually happen for a future game.

Let's look at this from another angle. In FE8, Paladins lost the access to axes they had in FE6 and FE7. I'm sure many new players were disappointed; I was among them. But I think we can all agree that this was a good thing for the game, as access to three weapon types along with their superior movement made Paladins overpowered. But according to the logic of the suggestions you and others have given, the players could have simply chosen not to use the axes if they were so detrimental to the game and treat the Paladins as though they only had access to swords and lances.

In fact, we could apply this to every weapon and give all characters access to all weapon types at all times, encouraged to use the ones associated with their class by having higher starting weapon levels in their classes, but still fully able to use the other weapons. Wouldn't it seem a bit ridiculous? Hypothetically, we could choose to just use the weapon types they start out with higher levels, but does anyone really want to do that?

This is how the matter looks to me and others who are opposed to reclassing. We have the option, and we can ignore it, but let's be honest: for the most part, no one really likes doing that. Hypothetically, you can ignore any option and make it the same as if the option wasn't there, but in reality, it isn't the same. You can never expect it to feel the same, just as playing on only Casual Mode and restarting it as if it was Classic Mode probably wouldn't feel the same, even though it, on some level, should feel the same.

This is especially true if the game is built to expect you to use the mechanic. According to dondon, some of the higher difficulty levels require or nearly require reclassing to complete. I don't know if it's true or not, but if it is, then it means no, we can't just choose to not use reclassing and expect to get the otherwise full experience of the game.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Othin

[Phoenix Wright]

Let's look at this from another angle. In FE8, Paladins lost the access to axes they had in FE6 and FE7. I'm sure many new players were disappointed; I was among them. But I think we can all agree that this was a good thing for the game, as access to three weapon types along with their superior movement made Paladins overpowered. But according to the logic of the suggestions you and others have given, the players could have simply chosen not to use the axes if they were so detrimental to the game and treat the Paladins as though they only had access to swords and lances.

In fact, we could apply this to every weapon and give all characters access to all weapon types at all times, encouraged to use the ones associated with their class by having higher starting weapon levels in their classes, but still fully able to use the other weapons. Wouldn't it seem a bit ridiculous? Hypothetically, we could choose to just use the weapon types they start out with higher levels, but does anyone really want to do that?

This is how the matter looks to me and others who are opposed to reclassing. We have the option, and we can ignore it, but let's be honest: for the most part, no one really likes doing that. Hypothetically, you can ignore any option and make it the same as if the option wasn't there, but in reality, it isn't the same. You can never expect it to feel the same, just as playing on only Casual Mode and restarting it as if it was Classic Mode probably wouldn't feel the same, even though it, on some level, should feel the same.

It's not the same at all. Weapon ability and the weapon triangle are crucial mechanics to these games, and screwing around with them can be very detrimental to the game.

Reclassing, on the other hand, I see to be similar to bonus experience in the Tellius games. Don't want to use BEXP? Don't use it. Let people who do, use it. Same with the arenas. And you don't seem to have any problem with the arenas.

Just because they're (reclass and weapon ability) both gameplay mechanics does not mean you can compare the two. Screwing with the former is very detrimental to the game's gameplay, with the latter, it is not.

This is especially true if the game is built to expect you to use the mechanic. According to dondon, some of the higher difficulty levels require or nearly require reclassing to complete. I don't know if it's true or not, but if it is, then it means no, we can't just choose to not use reclassing and expect to get the otherwise full experience of the game.

I believe he means to beat it efficiently. All of the players that play for efficiency either have no quarrels with the system, or love it. You can still beat it without the reclass system.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Phoenix Wright