Mechanics that you want

[Vicious Sal]

Um, didn't we hav glare in Fe10? The one with the horrible accuracy?

Glare was neat.

[Othin]

Capturing isn't just any old mechanic; I would argue that it's one of the best mechanics in the series, if not the best. Certainly, it doesn't have to happen exactly the way it did in FE5, and I'd say any other adjustments necessary to make capturing fit well into an FE game would be worth it more often than not.

[dondon151]

As novel as capturing was, I don't agree that it is anywhere near the best mechanic in the series. It worked extremely favorably for the player and there were very few circumstances where one would choose to capture rather than outright defeat an opponent.

[Lord Raven]

The only reason capturing was good in FE5 was because there wasn't much in the way of funds to begin with so you'd want to capture for your weapons. In other words, it only would've been favorable to do in FE5 and everywhere else gives you too much money for capturing to be that big a mechanic.

[Othin]

The only reason capturing was good in FE5 was because there wasn't much in the way of funds to begin with so you'd want to capture for your weapons. In other words, it only would've been favorable to do in FE5 and everywhere else gives you too much money for capturing to be that big a mechanic.

The other games give you too much money and too many good items available for unlimited purchase in shops, period. That's something that should be fixed no matter what, so the alternative is no reason to keep capturing out of a better-designed game.

[Anouleth]

The other games give you too much money and too many good items available for unlimited purchase in shops, period.

If shops don't stock good items, then there's no incentive to try and accumulate money. This was seen in FE9 where the game gave you masses of cash to spend but very little to spend it on: and it was redressed in FE10 with the addition of Bargains which provided an incentive to manage money. FE11 and FE12 also gave you a strong incentive with the return of Forging (and increasing the amount you could forge by), and in FE12, more buyable statboosters and the Training Arena. FE6 also had buyable Boots, which again, gave a big incentive to manage money intelligently.

[Aethereal]

To be honest, I wasn't a big fan of capturing, and I'd rather not see it implemented again. I can't place my finger on it, I guess I just didn't care for having to use drop/be hampered for a turn for a mechanic that didn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Othin]

The key word here is "unlimited". FE10's Bargain shop is a limited shop, which can potentially solve the issue entirely, but in its actual implementation, it failed to take over much of the unlimited shops' role in supplying relevant equipment. If it had kept the Steel Great-class weapons to the Bargain shop and left most of the other items it stocked such as skill scrolls as content in the maps themselves (something FE10 was seriously lacking), it would have been much closer to an ideal system.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Othin

[dondon151]

The other games give you too much money and too many good items available for unlimited purchase in shops, period.

I also disagree with this reasoning. FE5 was no less of an offender with it handing the player super powerful prfs like candy, and recruited units had their fair share of good weapons (Dean's and Eyrios's starting equips come to mind). In fact the only reason I had to use capturing in FE5 was to make enough money off selling weapons to buy S Drinks in chapter 14. Well, maybe that isn't exactly true - I needed a few Iron Axes for combat purposes - but the point is that I didn't really use capturing at all with the goal of getting good items.

Also think about how much design space in the realm of game difficulty is actually compromised by capturing. You can't give enemies strong weapons any more (like in harder modes of DS FE games) because you could just capture them and take them for yourself. Then consider the lack of design space that it reciprocates. Everyone hated those mandatory-capture gaiden bosses in FE5 because they were impossible to finish off with the player units having halved stats. If the player should desire a boss's items, then either make them droppable or stealable. If the goal is to not kill certain aggressive enemies, then introducing a mechanic that temporarily paralyzes, disarms a unit, etc. can accomplish the same thing.

[Anouleth]

It would be nice to see more sleep and berserk staves. And siege tomes...

The key word here is "unlimited". FE10's Bargain shop is a limited shop, which can potentially solve the issue entirely, but in its actual implementation, it failed to take over much of the unlimited shops' role in supplying relevant equipment.

I don't really see why it matters whether the shop is limited or unlimited. Even if the FE10 Bargain shop sold unlimited Beast Killers or Wind Edges or whatever, it likely wouldn't make any difference at all since you simply don't use that many weapons.

If it had kept the Steel Great-class weapons to the Bargain shop and left most of the other items it stocked such as skill scrolls as content in the maps themselves (something FE10 was seriously lacking), it would have been much closer to an ideal system.

I don't really see what difference limiting Steel Great weapons makes. They're not really game-breaking or overpowered, and you rarely go through weapons that fast. In comparison to the forging mechanics that ensure that you practically never use a storebought weapon, Steel Great weapons are quite balanced and don't really need to be turned into "rare" weapons.

[Colonel M]

I don't really see why it matters whether the shop is limited or unlimited. Even if the FE10 Bargain shop sold unlimited Beast Killers or Wind Edges or whatever, it likely wouldn't make any difference at all since you simply don't use that many weapons.

Keep in mind that FE10 also (could) have unlimited Hammers and Horseslayers. Not to mention that Physic Staves would suddenly become a non-issue, barring your financial issues.

[Anouleth]

Keep in mind that FE10 also (could) have unlimited Hammers and Horseslayers. Not to mention that Physic Staves would suddenly become a non-issue, barring your financial issues.

Having unlimited Hammers and Horseslayers wouldn't make it broken, and neither would Physic staves. If the game gave you five Hammers and five Horseslayers, you would have enough that you basically don't need to worry about running out. Yet the supply is still technically "limited". If the game gave you ten Physic staves, you would never have to worry about running out, even though in theory you eventually will run out.

And there is always a cap on the number of items you can acquire. It's called "money". Even if you had unlimited Hammers available to buy, you are not going to buy an infinite number of Hammers. If nothing else, you would run out of Convoy space.

[Momo]

Would definitely agree you're given way too much money in these games. While I haven't played 5 much (a few chapters), not even having the cash to buy simple weapons seems a little extreme, though. I'd like to actually have to think about what I buy, instead of having shopping sprees every time there's a new store.

[Lord Glenn]

As someone else brought up already I believe, the reason capturing "worked" so well in FE5 was mainly because Leaf's "army" is a small little resistance group that can't really fund much of anything; thus, they're forced to take what they can get from their enemies. In basically every other game, the group of player characters is financially backed through the actions of nobles at some point and thus have no reason to need to take weapons/gear from their enemies (unless they're a thief in FE9/10). Bringing capturing back just for the sake of having it is silly. If it's going to be brought back, it needs to have a reason (story and gameplay) for doing so.

As for the availability of money and weapons, I agree that money is largely prevalent in most games. Granted, Intelligent Systems may be doing this to account for new players and such; players unfamiliar with the given game (or with the series in general) may be more apt to spend larger amounts of money, as they won't know when the next shop will appear, what they'll be fighting, etc. It's partially silly to comment on this when the majority of players discussing this are highly experienced in the series and can make optimal use out of everything they're given. Reducing money to a level that we find acceptable may harm newer players.

For weapons/shops, I think a combination solution works the best. The fundamental weapons (Iron, Steel, maybe Silver, Fire, Elfire, etc.) should remain unlimited at the Armory. Anything beyond that, be they Horseslayers, etc. should have a limited stock (not necessarily 1) to signify that blacksmiths aren't continually churning the non-standard weapons out. Should the shopfront have two hammers and you buy both but want more, you could then request the blacksmith to make another one via Forging (though, I would personally suggest that non-standard weapons not be allowed to have as much customization as regular weapons produced via the forge). So, in the end, you're combining the Armory, Bargains, and Forge to make something more reality-based and easily less game-breaking. (Granted, I suppose that this would really depend on how the game is set up; the Steel Blade is really only broken in FE9 due to what you're fighting and the AS formula. In FE9, limiting Steel Blades might make sense, whereas limiting them in FE7 might not.)

[Colonel M]

Having unlimited Hammers and Horseslayers wouldn't make it broken, and neither would Physic staves. If the game gave you five Hammers and five Horseslayers, you would have enough that you basically don't need to worry about running out. Yet the supply is still technically "limited". If the game gave you ten Physic staves, you would never have to worry about running out, even though in theory you eventually will run out.

And there is always a cap on the number of items you can acquire. It's called "money". Even if you had unlimited Hammers available to buy, you are not going to buy an infinite number of Hammers. If nothing else, you would run out of Convoy space.

Keep in mind I didn't mention anything "broken" nor was it intended. I did mention "unlimited", but it was also tagged with "barring financial issues", which would obviously be a problem. Horseslayers are something that doesn't matter much, since the only times Paladins show their faces is rare. Hammers, though, make a fairly bigger impact, since it makes opportunity cost of Hammers a smaller issue (the only one that would exist is the money being spent elsewhere), and it possibly saves a Hammerne use as well, which could be used on something else.

Certainly, unlimited weapons doesn't make it broken since money is obviously the issue of the day. It's mainly that the game's difficulty can drop a little bit with it. I understand that there's a limited number of Axe users in the Greil Mercenaries and Dawn Brigade, but when Jill, Nolan, Ike, Titania, and Haar get such nice weapons you can't say it doesn't help more than it would have originally.

[Othin]

As someone else brought up already I believe, the reason capturing "worked" so well in FE5 was mainly because Leaf's "army" is a small little resistance group that can't really fund much of anything; thus, they're forced to take what they can get from their enemies. In basically every other game, the group of player characters is financially backed through the actions of nobles at some point and thus have no reason to need to take weapons/gear from their enemies (unless they're a thief in FE9/10). Bringing capturing back just for the sake of having it is silly. If it's going to be brought back, it needs to have a reason (story and gameplay) for doing so.

In a real war, if a country is under serious military threat, it's going to need every bit of money it has and probably still won't have enough to buy everything it wants. There have been times when a desperate country has sent out soldiers without proper equipment and expected them to just pick up whatever they can along the way. And that sort of desperate situation is precisely what a video game should have to make for a good story. In FE9, you were drowning in funds by the end because you had an alliance of several countries against a single country with nowhere near enough power to stand against the alliance, let alone Begnion alone. That weakened the story due to a serious lack of tension at the end, and it is something that should be avoided.

Again, I must suggest a comparison to Berwick Saga. The Raze Empire spends most of the game ripping the Berwick Alliance apart, so the Berwick Alliance spends whatever money it has on the war. As a result, Reese gets a lot of funding, but far from enough to simply buy everything he wants because the funds to do that just don't exist or are being spent otherwise. So he takes whatever he can from enemies using the (substantially different) Capture system to have somewhat more reasonable equipment for his soldiers.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Othin

[Aethereal]

In a real war, if a country is under serious military threat, it's going to need every bit of money it has and probably still won't have enough to buy everything it wants. There have been times when a desperate country has sent out soldiers without proper equipment and expected them to just pick up whatever they can along the way. And that sort of desperate situation is precisely what a video game should have to make for a good story. In FE9, you were drowning in funds by the end because you had an alliance of several countries against a single country with nowhere near enough power to stand against the alliance, let alone Begnion alone. That weakened the story due to a serious lack of tension at the end, and it is something that should be avoided.

The threat near the end of the game was the Fire Emblem, and the potential reawakening of the dark god. Obviously Gallia Crimea and Begnion were stronger than Daien, but you were meant to fear that the dark god could awaken at any time and wipe out the continent.

While I agree that you had far too much money in FE9, that's mostly due to us getting a watered down hardmode. FE8 and FE9 had big issues with difficulty, and provided you with far too much money. As much as I'd like for the game to provide you with less gold throughout, FE8 and FE9 weren't trivialized because of money at all, and even if money had been scarce I doubt it would have made the games significantly more difficult or enjoyable.

[eclipse]

In a real war, if a country is under serious military threat, it's going to need every bit of money it has and probably still won't have enough to buy everything it wants. There have been times when a desperate country has sent out soldiers without proper equipment and expected them to just pick up whatever they can along the way. And that sort of desperate situation is precisely what a video game should have to make for a good story. In FE9, you were drowning in funds by the end because you had an alliance of several countries against a single country with nowhere near enough power to stand against the alliance, let alone Begnion alone. That weakened the story due to a serious lack of tension at the end, and it is something that should be avoided.

What you think is a good story and what I think is a good story widely varies. The story became political the minute Elincia showed her face, and started getting countries to back her. While it would've been cool to see one mercenary company's struggle to survive as the war went on around them, that's not how the later FEs work. Tellius works as a political story. Thus, I don't see the problem with huge amounts of money everywhere.

I haven't played FE5, so I don't know how good/bad capturing is. Sounds like an interesting concept, but forcing boss captures doesn't.

[Colonel M]

Yes, because I want to play a game that happened with most Russians with WW2.

1 man had ammo, 1 man had guns, 1 man had a knife (I think).

This is the most brilliant idea I've ever heard of, I don't know what could go wrong with this!

Capturing is an okay mechanic, but dondon explained why it has its major downfalls. Perhaps if the lock item system was re-established, or you can only take items that glow or something. *shrugs.

[Anouleth]

What you think is a good story and what I think is a good story widely varies. The story became political the minute Elincia showed her face, and started getting countries to back her. While it would've been cool to see one mercenary company's struggle to survive as the war went on around them, that's not how the later FEs work. Tellius works as a political story. Thus, I don't see the problem with huge amounts of money everywhere.

Well, the GMs are pretty poor, but Daein and Crimea are pretty rich, so once you join up with the CRKs and Sigrun, you're rolling in money.

Which makes sense, really.

[dondon151]

There have been times when a desperate country has sent out soldiers without proper equipment and expected them to just pick up whatever they can along the way.

This made me think back to chapter 5 of FE5 where I basically had only 1 Steel Sword and had to trade it between 3 people who wanted to use it. That's a good implementation of this scenario. Capturing is not, however. Most players will go from lacking any serious weaponry whatsoever to drowning in Iron Axes, Iron Bows, and Short Lances over the course of 1 chapter. All of a sudden this "help I need weapons" scenario goes bust.

Actually, here's an idea for a hard mode: limit weapon availability and decrease the allotted funds over the course of the game. Assuming that the player has experience with the game anyway, he should be expected to plan around this.

[Othin]

Actually, here's an idea for a hard mode: limit weapon availability and decrease the allotted funds over the course of the game. Assuming that the player has experience with the game anyway, he should be expected to plan around this.

Now there's a great idea I agree with wholeheartedly. There's a lot that can change on a Hard Mode rather than just enemies and Exp formulas.

[Vicious Sal]

Crap I had a really nice idea that was an addition to something... I forgot... I'll remember one day.

NVM remembered it now.

Ok, listen up... We are gonna nerf HIGH move units on some chapters! Take a look at the Sneak chapter in fe9, the prison.

Now picture an ambush of some sort, and your entire team of deployed units has to stay together! No one may be away from eachother further than 5 spaces. OR 6 or so, so everyone is hustled together. PReventing you from using your OP Jeaigan with awesome growths and stats (jeigan what actually?) from going ahead and decimating the enemy. He has to stay close to the lord, other units and that pink 5 move armor. Fuckyeah.

Some chapters, not all of them. Just where the situation calls for hustle together. (Even though we have an OP unit who destroys the enemy.)

Any comments on this btw? People keep raging about how Op some hig move units are... So...

[Phoenix Wright]

As someone else brought up already I believe, the reason capturing "worked" so well in FE5 was mainly because Leaf's "army" is a small little resistance group that can't really fund much of anything; thus, they're forced to take what they can get from their enemies. In basically every other game, the group of player characters is financially backed through the actions of nobles at some point and thus have no reason to need to take weapons/gear from their enemies (unless they're a thief in FE9/10). Bringing capturing back just for the sake of having it is silly. If it's going to be brought back, it needs to have a reason (story and gameplay) for doing so.

I think the capturing worked so well because it was a good idea. I don't care if I can fund an army or not. I don't very much care for realism in my video games...

[CT075]

Actually, here's an idea for a hard mode: limit weapon availability and decrease the allotted funds over the course of the game. Assuming that the player has experience with the game anyway, he should be expected to plan around this.

That is actually really brilliant.

You could probably throw in factors like Fatigue, etc. (probably not capturing for the reasons dondon outlined) on another difficulty.

Like, NM is with unlimited shops, etc.

H1 is this scenario.

H2 is this scenario with fatigue.

And so on and so forth.