Silvercrow Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 As others have said, Lyn seems mostly ok to me, if only because the Mani Katti is such a good weapon and she's actually able to double which makes her offense good by default. She has her niche. Sol Katti is horrid though. Eliwood in my opinion suffers from the issue of bringing absolutely nothing to do the team. He needs to reliably be able to do one of the following: be durable, double, or have good mobility. Give him the ability to do one of the above and he's already in a much better place. You could argue that his mobility is decent post-promotion, and that's true, but he's still outclassed as you'll have promoted flyers, Paladins with more move, and he promotes so late that it's silly. The rapier kinda blows too compared to the Mani Katti or Wolf Beil, it could use a bit of might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 That's precisely why Hector should gain less con on promotion. I think Hector's fine as he is. Not overkill, but reliable - as Lords should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) You completely missed the point. 15 con Hector can't be rescued by promoted Fiora, Farina, Kent, Sain, Marcus, but 14 con Hector can be rescued by all of them (and I guess Isadora, but everyone uses a Body Ring on Isadora). The only good axes that weigh more than 14 are the Brave Axe and Armads. I don't think Hector minds having to lose 1 more AS from the Brave Axe and the Armads problem can be easily solved by reducing its WT. Edited December 7, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I see. I'm not one to ferry units often in terms of progressing through a chapter, so in that sense 1 less con would be a great help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahlman Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Considering Lyn is basically Guy only she loses liek every stat forever ? She loses HP (but she doesn't have a hard time getting enough to take a counter from the Dragon, which is all that really matters for a unit of her type) and Speed forever. She's caught up in Str by lv 16 unpromoted (20/16 with HM bonuses), Skill at 20/1 thanks to promotion gains (20/12 with HHM bonuses), Def at 20/20 (heh), and wins Luck (not that it matters) and Res (matters a lot in HHM; she gets +5 Res from promotion) forever (well, Res almost forever with HHM bonuses). Plus she starts with a level lead unless you skipped LHM and trained Guy in 13x. on top of a few other disadvantages Such as... ? All I can think of is sword rank, which again is reversed if you've played LHM. (and her only real advantages are mani katti Which is huge because it means she actually gets real opportunities to train (or at least take out bosses and other key units) in a crapload more early chapters than Guy does. Eliwood is kinda in the same boat, although postpromotion he's actually good, unlike Lyn I would say she gets more of what she actually needs from promotion than Eliwood does. It does depend on whether you're playing ranks or LTC though, as ranked Guy is actually good because exp rank matters ??? * If you do skip LHM then Guy only has one more opportunity to gain a level than Lyn. * You don't really need to max units out for exp rank anyway. * Lyn has a much, much easier time getting levels early because she can ORKO a Knight or cav or whatever, get healed if she didn't dodge, and then let the EP units do their thing. Guy isn't an EP unit either, and bandits and defenseless archers are kinda scarce for a while. Nobody is really "good for exp rank"; a few units are bad for it (and only if you're careless), and what really matters is scrounging up as many units as possible who don't completely suck. Granted, Guy doesn't completely suck, but that doesn't help him in the comparison to Lyn. LTC means basically anyone that isn't Marcusmounted sucks, so... Except for the part where those mounted units rescue/drop other tanky units. Or dancer utility. Or warpskipping. Or rout maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedoom Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Lyn is horrible if you dont play Lyn mode, so a + 4HP base and + 2 def are what she needs. Sol Katti is horrible, but its just one chapter, Use Athos/Canas/Hector to deal with the dragon, why do you need more units anyways? its like Athos was meant to defeat that dragon. Eliwood's just... bad. No, horrendous. I mean, the guy suffers major con problems with the durandal, and he's supposed to be an allrounder. At least dont make him get DOUBLED by the dragon! I'd say Eliwood needs + 1 con at base and then a + 2 con after promotion. It helps because he can wield lances better too. Oh, and maybe give hm more move. That, or he can just have + 10% in Str/Def. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progenitus Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Are you literally trying to argue Lyn > Guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 ...and the fact that he never really gets anywhere even after he gets past his start, and the fact that he STILL has con problems after promotion, and the fact that he can't carry Hector... I'd also give him +1 move and +2 con, but that's just me. Pick a side and stick to it. You managed to contradict yourself in a matter of sentences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Lyn is far too fragile. Guy's high HP allows him to take more hits, and he has better defense to top it off. The Mani Katti is useful for the time you have it, but once you've broken it Lyn definitely loses out to Guy, who at least gains +15% crit on promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahlman Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Are you literally trying to argue Lyn > Guy? See, this is the part where I figure you must be trolling (in the sense of trying to derail the discussion). I was refuting your arguments. Using Guy as a reference point was your idea in the first place. This is supposed to be about what buffs Lyn should get, if any, to be the character she ought to be. It's 100% subjective what tier lords even "ought to" be on in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Pick a side and stick to it. You managed to contradict yourself in a matter of sentences. well the next sentence would have been "and change the mounted aid formula" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 well the next sentence would have been "and change the mounted aid formula" Woulda, shoulda, coulda, didn't. If you meant to say "change the mounted aid formula", too bad. You didn't say it at all. You didn't even imply it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Even so, I can ask for two mutually exclusive things. The first thing I said was outlining his problems, which is what makes him bad. The part you were referring to was my solution to make those marginal, seeing as you nicely snipped out the part in the middle. Either way, semantics schemantics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Are you literally trying to argue Lyn > Guy? I would say Lyn > Guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Envoy of the Beginning Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Lyn is far too fragile. Guy's high HP allows him to take more hits, and he has better defense to top it off. The Mani Katti is useful for the time you have it, but once you've broken it Lyn definitely loses out to Guy, who at least gains +15% crit on promotion. Guy also gets HHM bounses, which is something I can't say about Lyn. Edit: Inb4hammernestaff Edited December 11, 2011 by BLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Well I don't think a Lyn v Guy debate was intended here, so I'm just gonna stop now. Unless someone else continues. THEN I'MA JUMP THE FUCK BACK IN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahlman Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I imagine that if you're the kind of player who's careless enough with the Mani Katti (i.e. using it when Iron or maybe even Steel would do) to have it run out before the end of the game, then it's liable to break before you get Hammerne anyway. I mean you can hold onto it at 1 or 2 uses for a few chapters, but then there are other things worth Hammerne-ing, too. Until Lyn gets a decent amount of training she's way more of a boss-killer type (try her against Zoldam, Uhai, and Aion) than an EP unit, but later on she can do useful things with ordinary weapons. Of course, lots of other units could do the same things, but... I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, except that Eliwood is definitely more in need of buffing than Lyn is, assuming the goal is to have the three Lords being roughly equal in value/usefulness/tier/whatever you want to call it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progenitus Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 See, this is the part where I figure you must be trolling (in the sense of trying to derail the discussion). I was refuting your arguments. Using Guy as a reference point was your idea in the first place. This is supposed to be about what buffs Lyn should get, if any, to be the character she ought to be. It's 100% subjective what tier lords even "ought to" be on in the first place. Considering in the ranked tier list Lyn is liek low tier, I was hoping she would get buffed reasonably. Around to Guy's level, who is, you know, high tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just call me AL Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Considering in the ranked tier list Lyn is liek low tier, I was hoping she would get buffed reasonably. Around to Guy's level, who is, you know, high tier. What tier list have you been looking at? And what do ranks have to do with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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