Hoenn region tier list

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

lv 27 mighthyena around Winona's gym while we're at it

And magneton/Electrode, never forget magneton/electrode...

[MacLovin]

Yeah, so rise the "pre-evolved" ones?

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

That is assuming we assume we skip everything and their mother.

Before that is desided I see no reason to rise a thing

[MacLovin]

I don't think thatt skipping everything is a good idea.

If it's good out of the box has good stab ad movepool, and doen't require alot of resources/babyig

Its in a higher tier.

Ralts dropping?

Sableye rise?

Fightig types rise?

[Shadow Mir]

And magneton/Electrode, never forget magneton/electrode...

Isn't the chance to find a wild Electrode/Magneton only 1% (AKA, practically discountable)?

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

We don't give penalties for being ahrd to find last time I checked...

And there are those 2 electrodes in Agua/magma hideout right next to master ball

[MacLovin]

Raised some, lowered some

[Shadow Mir]

We don't give penalties for being ahrd to find last time I checked...

And there are those 2 electrodes in Agua/magma hideout right next to master ball

Well, I'll give you those two Electrodes in the Hideout.

And on Seviper: I brought it up because I just wasn't comfortable with it being in Upper Mid.

[MacLovin]

Hmmm.

BTW, ima thinking Maril should rise a little.

Huge power, HP cushion, and loldouble edge make it an awesome suicide bomber late on.

It dishes high damage.

Comparing Shroomish and Makuhita, since I'm doing a run using both up to evolution.

Shroomish is fairly common, and gains exp fast, as well as helping beat Roxannes gym swifter.

It also is a little bulky for a 1st form.

Then, after Roxxy, the only things it fights well are waters/rocks.

And, due to averagish sp and reliance on absorb/bullet seed until mega drain comes-for stab.

Then, at lvl 23, it evolves into Breloom and gets mach punch, a good sþab move.

That's a fighting type version of QA.

But, IMO, if we're going fast, it may not evolve until Fallarbor or until in the cave with waterfall.

Now, Makuhita, comes in a place where one has to go through, and if caught at lvl 10+, gets arm thrust.

At lvl 13 (I think) it gets vital throw.

Since money isn't much of a problem in pokemon, and zigzagoons are HM slaves with pickup-they get random X attacks here and there.

I've found, that if Makuhita is lvl 13+ when leaving Slateport (assuming caught at lvl 10).

It 1-2HKOes everything and its mother on the way to Mauville, except for trainers With Roselia, and the starter that Birches kids using.

And, with an X attack and proper use of healing, a lvl 18 Makuhita clobbers Wattson quite hard.

And if it gets hit by Twave, this can be a mixed blessing.

With guts+X att+stab vital throw, it ORKOes Magneton and Manectric, but if the RNG is cranky, it'll not move, and probobly die to manectrics attacks.

After this, let's see.

Breloom loses Flannery

Both do well against Norman

Breloom gets X att+mach punch

Hariyama gets X att+vital throw

Both fail at Winona

In the ocean, both are equal IMO

Against Tate and Liza

Breloom dies quicker.

Hariyama takes another hit or 2 and rock tombs Xatu.

Against Aqua/Magma, both steamroll

Against Archie, both are equal.

But Breloom dies faster against that golbat and 4x weakness to flying.

Against Maxie, Hariyama wins.

If Camerupt has a fire move.

Against Juan, both are close, its between Brelooms grass stab/Hariyamas raw power.

Against Wally, they Steamroll all but Altaria and Gardevoir.

They rape Sidney

Mediocre against Phoebe

Rape Glacia

Mediocre against Drake

Breloom gets Sky uppercuts effect against wallaces Wailord.

And can giga drain Whishcash.

Hariyama mows through with 120 base attack, fighting stab, bulk up, X attack, and HP cushion.

So, I'm thinking Makuhita>Shroomish, switching places.

Due to being the 2nd best non-starter to beat Wattson.

And it steamrolls the bike bridge.

Shroomish is good for Roxannes gym, but despite fairly early promotion and stab+sky uppercut and mach punch-has 4x weakness to flying and is weak to ice.

Hariyama may be slow, but it steamrolls things with 120 base attack and vital throw.

Money isn't that hard to come by in PKMN

Unless were skipping everything.

[grandjackal]

Hmmm.

BTW, ima thinking Maril should rise a little.

Huge power, HP cushion, and loldouble edge make it an awesome suicide bomber late on.

It dishes high damage.

Issue being the level you catch it at. Even when you're playing trainer skip like me, it's base level is low.

Comparing Shroomish and Makuhita, since I'm doing a run using both up to evolution.

Shroomish is fairly common, and gains exp fast, as well as helping beat Roxannes gym swifter.

It also is a little bulky for a 1st form.

You mean self-sustaining because that's the beauty of Absorb, and is there to deal with Roxanne for Torchic users, allowing Torchic to pass through part of his worst time without being a negative.

Then, after Roxxy, the only things it fights well are waters/rocks.

And, due to averagish sp and reliance on absorb/bullet seed until mega drain comes-for stab.

You say it like that's all it can do. Name me another earlygame status effect spreader. Who else can paralyze Wattson's Manectric?

Then, at lvl 23, it evolves into Breloom and gets mach punch, a good sþab move.

That's a fighting type version of QA.

But, IMO, if we're going fast, it may not evolve until Fallarbor or until in the cave with waterfall.

I forget when it evolves, but I would say don't underestimate leveling speed. Even with skipping trainers, my levels haven't been looking THAT bad (not so far anyways). What leveling speed does Shroomish have?

Now, Makuhita, comes in a place where one has to go through, and if caught at lvl 10+, gets arm thrust.

At lvl 13 (I think) it gets vital throw.

Since money isn't much of a problem in pokemon, and zigzagoons are HM slaves with pickup-they get random X attacks here and there.

I've found, that if Makuhita is lvl 13+ when leaving Slateport (assuming caught at lvl 10).

It 1-2HKOes everything and its mother on the way to Mauville, except for trainers With Roselia, and the starter that Birches kids using.

And, with an X attack and proper use of healing, a lvl 18 Makuhita clobbers Wattson quite hard.

Fortunate that there is a double team forced at you before the May fight, because level 13 is realistic in your scope even under my view (that is if you catch it at level 12), and that Sableye can help out against Brawly if you so choose to tran Maku that way.

Also not a fan of having to depend on random X Attacks that may not happen (From route 101 to Mauville, I have not even gotten one Pickup, much less enough to think a bunch of X attacks will just fall on your lap. Besides, Shroomish has his own way of making Wattson easier. Stun Spore.

And if it gets hit by Twave, this can be a mixed blessing.

With guts+X att+stab vital throw, it ORKOes Magneton and Manectric, but if the RNG is cranky, it'll not move, and probably die to manectrics attacks.

I forgot it got Guts.

After this, let's see.

Breloom loses Flannery

Both do well against Norman

Breloom gets X att+mach punch

Hariyama gets X att+vital throw

Both fail at Winona

In the ocean, both are equal IMO

Freeze on the Ocean part. Breloom has Grass on his side for durability and offense, how the hell is it equal?

Only thing I could argue against Tate and Liza is in the case of death and Solrock/Lunatune/Claydol are near dead he can come in and revenge kill thanks to speed+Mach Punch for the floating rocks.

Against Aqua/Magma, both steamroll

Against Archie, both are equal.

But Breloom dies faster against that golbat and 4x weakness to flying.

Why would you have either of them fight Golbat?

Against Juan, both are close, its between Brelooms grass stab/Hariyamas raw power.

Wishcash takes x4 damage. Only issue is I forget if Kingdra has Ice Beam or not. Seriously, Kingdra...

Mediocre against Phoebe

The grassy one can actually hit them though, since he has a secondary stab that's neither weak to ghost, nor does not face immunity.

Mediocre against Drake

Last I checked, Hari couldn't Paralyze some of Drake's mons.

Breloom gets Sky uppercuts effect against wallaces Wailord.

And can giga drain Whishcash.

Uhhh, I dunno about Sky Uppercut...then again, I'm in a unique position, and am not testing Shroomish in the process. I imagine Shroomish would be a good mon anyways.

Hariyama mows through with 120 base attack, fighting stab, bulk up, X attack, and HP cushion.

But where's the speed? The enemy isn't just sitting there doing nothing while Hari sets up on them. He's gonna need supplies to get by.

So, I'm thinking Makuhita>Shroomish, switching places.

Due to being the 2nd best non-starter to beat Wattson.

You're dreaming if you think Maku's the second best mon to deal with Wattson, since half your point requires Maku get X Attacks that may not exist.

And it steamrolls the bike bridge.

...Why are we ever getting on the bike bridge? The record?

Shroomish is good for Roxannes gym, but despite fairly early promotion and stab+sky uppercut and mach punch-has 4x weakness to flying and is weak to ice.

Hariyama may be slow, but it steamrolls things with 120 base attack and vital throw.

His fat ass eats resources and time doing it too. Resources we might not even have these resources if we're depending on Pickup.

Money isn't that hard to come by in PKMN

Unless were skipping everything.

Eh, again I don't think it's that. It might be for the E4 gameplan of "Buy a shitton of Hyper Potions and Revives", but in early terms I hardly notice. dondon only brought it up cause he got the salt, since he went and bought 11 Super Potions and a bunch of Repels, then wound up spending all the money to the point where he couldn't actually enter the museum with it's $50 price and cou;dn't actually continue the game unless he sold some back. Take a word from the penny pincher.

[Bluedoom]

I sugest Vulpix going down: Its variety is absolutely horrible and its only form of offense is STAB flamethrower. It comes late, at a time when you're about to fight Team Aqua, then you need to fight the twins(whose rock/psychic mons will kill you) and then Cuan, who makes a mockery out of Vulpix. Then, Elite four time: Its doing nice stab in the first and second elite four, can take out glalie in the third, and is absolutely crushed against Drake and Wallace. :|

EDIT: Also Swablu and Solrock should switch places. Solrock at least has variety(it can fire flamethrower and solar beam off of its relatively low sp atk, but its a plus) and both Lunatone and Solrock can be handy at their respective join time. Swablu is a pain to train, suffers from a horrible lvl up moveset, and generally never pleases as a Swablu. You can get Altaria later, sure, but its pretty late, and it still needs to hog TMs.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Marth

[dondon151]

EDIT: Also Swablu and Solrock should switch places. Solrock at least has variety(it can fire flamethrower and solar beam off of its relatively low sp atk, but its a plus) and both Lunatone and Solrock can be handy at their respective join time. Swablu is a pain to train, suffers from a horrible lvl up moveset, and generally never pleases as a Swablu. You can get Altaria later, sure, but its pretty late, and it still needs to hog TMs.

Not that I particularly disagree with your assertion, but there's absolutely no reason to put special attacks on Solrock (it hits slightly harder than Linoone...); it is dependent entirely on Rock Slide and the Earthquake and Shadow Ball TMs. At least it has a decent STAB move in its level up movepool, but Swablu gets a relatively uncontested Aerial Ace, has an actual SpAtk stat, and learns Dragon Dance with a physical movepool just barely big enough to make use of it.

EDIT: in case I'm not clear, Solrock is better earlier on while Altaria is better later, but it's more valuable to be better early.

Eh, again I don't think it's that. It might be for the E4 gameplan of "Buy a shitton of Hyper Potions and Revives", but in early terms I hardly notice. dondon only brought it up cause he got the salt, since he went and bought 11 Super Potions and a bunch of Repels, then wound up spending all the money to the point where he couldn't actually enter the museum with it's $50 price and cou;dn't actually continue the game unless he sold some back. Take a word from the penny pincher.

I didn't need most of the healing items because I soloed the game with Combusken up until Wattson, and he kills everything without giving opponents a chance to attack. If you're using 3 Pokemon, you're going to see use for those Super Potions unless you retreat to the Pokemon Center after every fight.

Edited February 13, 2012 by dondon151

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

i think certain someone is forgetting certain little detail about hariyama. Stab Vital throw is egually strong to super effective stab mega drain and hari's base atk stomps breloom's spe. atk. so what if hari gets hit, it has some serious bulk. it dont have to paralyze when it 1-2 ohkos forever. absord may heal but its offence is pathetic. Harijama wins bulk, wins offence and even has better earlygame thanks to lv 13 vital throw also if my taillow evolved right before magma boss in emerald when skipping and even that included favouritism, then breloom is not evolving any earlier with superskip.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Sho.M.the.Pinkie.Pie

[dondon151]

Vital Throw is not that good of a move. You get hit by everything when you use it.

[charlie_]

Vital Throw is not that good of a move. You get hit by everything when you use it.

Early game Makuhita has enough bulk to handle getting hit first. Later it gets meh though.

[Shadow Mir]

Vital Throw is not that good of a move. You get hit by everything when you use it.

I agree. The fact that you have to go last means you're open to flinching, which is very annoying.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Firstly,

amazing enough bulk can easily compensate taking one hit. Taking status to the face because of it is no issue either because Guts exists. Accuracy/evade stuff is completely ignored thanks to Vital throw always hitting (utility points )

Secondly Flinching?

BITCH PLEASE

Flinch moves:

Astonish, Bite, Bone Club, Extrasensory, Fake Out, Headbutt, Hyper Fang, Needle Arm, Rock Slide, Rolling Kick, Sky Attack, Sky Uppercut, Snore, Stomp, Twister, Waterfall.

Out of these moves you will ever realistically see more than once:

Astonish, Bite, Extrasensory, Fake Out, Headbutt, Rock Slide

Fake out is priority anyway, Astonish and Bite do minimal damage to Hariyama and Rock Slide is only marginally existing and its users are ohkoed if their 10% flinch fail(and its not like they 2hko) so we are left with:

Extrasensory, Headbutt

Extrasensory is used only by nuzleaf so its 10% flinch or OHKO so marginally matterful at the best

Only users of headbutt that are not OHKOed by Hariyama are (possibly) Shroomish and Breloom.

Yeah, next time anyone says Makuhita has to fear Flinch I will flat out stop listening their arguments. They have at that moment offically become too unlogical to bother listening.

So in the end of the day, Makuhita + Vital Throw = Absolute rape for the entire game

[dondon151]

Early game Makuhita has enough bulk to handle getting hit first. Later it gets meh though.

You (and Sho.M, whose immaturity strikes me as amazing) are missing the point. The drawback is that Makuhita has to take a hit, not that he has any sort of trouble surviving one. Giving the opponent a free turn every turn consumes time and healing items.

Vital Throw is also not guaranteed to OHKO a lot of opponent Pokemon. Because Makuhita is slow, you're giving a lot of opponent Pokemon 2 attacking or statusing turns. Contrary to what Guts leads you to think, Makuhita does not enjoy being paralyzed, because being rendered immobile 25% of the time also consumes time.

Edited February 13, 2012 by dondon151

[charlie_]

I never said paralysis is a good thing. But with Makuhita's speed, it isn't exactly outrunning much anyway. To be honest, it only really contributes as a wrecking ball early game, and then slows down. It shouldn't be as high as it should.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Serious Sam

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

(I take that as compliment)

What Im saying is that you are making way too big deal out of it. There is no money issues in pkmn. Nobody cares if you need one potion after every 10 or so battles if its not made unneeded by we are passing by next pkmn center anyway (Opponents are that dangerous)

Its not like he is ever going to actually get serious damage outside super effective move and rare gym leader pkmn with uber offence. 70/30/30 and 144/60/60 are everything but frail defensive stats in ingame. Maku takes punches in like a boss

EDIT Makuhita desrves its spot. It wrecks stuff from Recruitment to the end of the game. It does not seriously slow down with those stats...

Edited February 13, 2012 by Sho.M.the.Pinkie.Pie

[Espinosa]

This argument about Pokemon speed makes me wonder where Snorlax would be in a Kanto tier list, since it's also really slow, not to mention problematic to catch (though its other benefits are too obvious).

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

I would see snorlax in upper mid.

Comes bit late but has instant uber bulk and is like the only reasonable rest + snore ever.

It solorapes every special oriented trainer with ridiculous overkill powers.

Speed is way overrated in the ingame.

[MacLovin]

Speed isn't a problem when one ha awesome HP, good def, and powerful stab.

Hmmmm

Since when has money been a problem n PKMN.

the rich trainers gve a fuckton

Gyms/Unavoidable trainers do too.

Archie, Maxie, May

And, there are random nuggets/stardusts to be found here and there.

Also, potions are like the cheapest thing to get.

200 Pokegold?

Thats kinda cheap, unless we're uberskipping everthing.

Makuhita is slow, but has a HP cushion, and decent def for in-game.

1-2HKOng everything is good enough anyways.

Edited February 13, 2012 by The Insane One

[charlie_]

dondon's point is that going second every time costs time. Only a few seconds, but those add up. And skipping trainers does speed stuff up, the point of a tier list is to do things efficiently.

Makuhita should be benched after Norman IMO. After that point, he stops doing much, and other Pokemon are OHKOing most stuff for you anyway. He still makes decent contributions however, I could see him dropping to below Abra, his polar opposite (starts bad and gets better) even without trade.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

If we assume enviroment where we do things as fast as we can and skip everything, that cute abra is going to make us spend way more time than Makuhita. having to be babyed the fuck and back is tall order...

Makuhita don't slow down that much. Its still behemoth even after Norman. Abra who actually has time of suck is definately not going over him. For fucks sake Abra should be under ralts.