Rate the Unit Day 6: Vanessa

[Titamon]

Earlygame peg 7.5/10

[eclipse]

Her combat leaves much to be desired. . .like, at least Florina's got her sisters to help her damage output.

7/10

[frat_tastic]

9.5/10

Flying pony

[Integrity]

I should probably put my words in here so I don't forget.

Horse, wings, stuff, other stuff. She usually turns out pretty solid for me in the fightings, but I have that luck with early pegasseuses so such it is. Plus, I like her.

I'm willing to grant her a 9/10.

[Narga_Rocks]

That won't change my rating, since Ephraim Route is always the best route.

How do you figure that she's better in Ephraim Route? That's what the rule means, btw. Whichever route it is in which the performance of the unit is better. Not which route you believe in general to be the best, or whatever.

[Anouleth]

How do you figure that she's better in Ephraim Route?

It was a joke.

[Sunwoo]

Hmm ... I'd LIKE to give Vanessa a good score because she's the first earlygame flier, but ... I'm using her right now in a draft I picked up from The Creeper, and she's been causing me nothing but problems. Perhaps it's because this is my first draft and I don't know how to play well. Maybe I just got REALLY screwed with her. But, objectively ...

She can fly and reach places others can't, and get them there faster. But her starting statistics are weak, and she's terrible against axes and bows (which are common in at least three out of four of her starting maps, plus the fifth one is fog of war with axemen and archers). Even if you only use her for ferrying, you have to make sure you put her ONLY where she cannot be hit. Two hits, she's gone. One if an archer gets her. Not to mention that if she's rescuing someone, she loses half her speed and may get doubled. Unpromoted, she loses AS to everything but a slim lance, which is bad even if you only use her for rescuing. You'll probably have to give her some experience and levels if you want to continue using her for ferrying.

7/10, and I think that's fair. Being an earlygame flier and the only one until the route split gives her major points, but minus three for being a pain to level up and keep alive.

[Baldrick]

She can fly, but there's not too many chapters where that's important before you get another flier. Only 2, 5 and 7.

Her stats are pretty ordinary, so unless you train her, later on there's not too much reason to use her. Though she might have some niche as a wyvern rider.

6/10

[Lightli]

9/10. If you are taking the SETH route, she's almost as important as SETH himself. However, SETH is usually banned, and while she's still incredibly important for speed-running the game, she still doesn't quite measure up to Franz in destroying the game.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Vanessa is all flying up in here and junk. Javelining things and rescuing others. Forde's got the hots for her.

Pros:

Flies.

Joins early.

Rescue shenanigans.

Good supports.

Cons:

Shaky start in axe land.

Strength can get super screwed.

Lance lock (even forever if you make her a Wyvern.)

I like Vanessa. Of course i love PegKnights in general. Shes handy to have though. Especially on chapters like Phantom Ship and Scorched Sand. (and that one level with the gorgon eggs.)

7.5/10 Biased rating: 9/10. I love me some PegKnight!

[Integrity]

You know, Florina, you could put that bias to good use and make the rating an 8.5.

[riariadne]

9/10

-1 for being not Seth or Franz- flies, joins early, ferries, not that good a fighter but important utility still.

[Renall]

7.5/10. She's a great early flying unit which has tons of utility and good for Sethskipping. Long-term, she's fine. Not perfect, not amazing, but pretty good. Good SPD, okay STR (seriously, her STR isn't that bad at all, getting screwed is possible but it's not like her average is super low), some DEF issues. She's not Cormag, but she still has wings, and she is around a bit longer.

[Pat]

I'd rate Vanessa 6/10... she's really handy in certain chapters, and she has some potential... but she's weak. The only time I really used her, I made her a Wyvern Knight, and her speed, skill, and I think luck were through the roof... but her strength and defense were pitiful.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'd rate Vanessa 6/10... she's really handy in certain chapters, and she has some potential... but she's weak. The only time I really used her, I made her a Wyvern Knight, and her speed, skill, and I think luck were through the roof... but her strength and defense were pitiful.

Did you compare those to her averages? Because I have to say, if you are ranking her based on her being 2 or 3 str/def below her average, that's silly.

[Sunwoo]

Vanessa has 20.3 strength and 14.6 defense on average as a wyvern knight. I don't think it's much different for a falcon knight. Combined with her speed and luck, which makes her good at dodging, those aren't too bad stats. But she's still rather frail even at 20/20. Also, what if she wasn't 20/20? If she was, say, 15/10 or 20/10, her stats would be lower ... which means that her strength and defense would've been lower assuming no screwage or blessings. Whether you think Pat's reasoning is silly or not, he still explained himself well enough for his vote to count. Plus, other people have rated Vanessa 6/10 or 7/10, including me, and there have been far sillier reasonings that have nonetheless been accepted in other rating threads.

[Narga_Rocks]

Vanessa has 20.3 strength and 14.6 defense on average as a wyvern knight. I don't think it's much different for a falcon knight. Combined with her speed and luck, which makes her good at dodging, those aren't too bad stats. But she's still rather frail even at 20/20. Also, what if she wasn't 20/20? If she was, say, 15/10 or 20/10, her stats would be lower ... which means that her strength and defense would've been lower assuming no screwage or blessings. Whether you think Pat's reasoning is silly or not, he still explained himself well enough for his vote to count. Plus, other people have rated Vanessa 6/10 or 7/10, including me, and there have been far sillier reasonings that have nonetheless been accepted in other rating threads.

I didn't say it's silly if he didn't like her averages, whatever the level. I said it's silly specifically if she was screwed and he's rating her entirely on the basis of a str screwed run. You disagree? Because your post seems to indicate you completely misunderstood my point. You, nor I, have any idea what her actual stats were, but it seems like you think I'm complaining about him rating an average Vanessa.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Narga_Rocks

[Sunwoo]

I didn't mean to sound like I was complaining, but I'm just saying that it's entirely possible that his Vanessa was actually at average strength and defense. It's hard to exactly tell since he didn't give stats, but he could've still been talking about an average Vanessa.

[Baldrick]

I didn't say it's silly if he didn't like her averages, whatever the level. I said it's silly specifically if she was screwed and he's rating her entirely on the basis of a str screwed run. You disagree? Because your post seems to indicate you completely misunderstood my point. You, nor I, have any idea what her actual stats were, but it seems like you think I'm complaining about him rating an average Vanessa.

Because Vanessa's average physical stats are mediocre, there's no solid evidence to suggest she was RNG screwed. She may well have been, that it doesn't make his argument any less valid.

EDIT: OH GOD THERE'S A SHURIKEN IN MY EYE

Edited February 6, 2012 by Baldrick

[Narga_Rocks]

I didn't mean to sound like I was complaining, but I'm just saying that it's entirely possible that his Vanessa was actually at average strength and defense. It's hard to exactly tell since he didn't give stats, but he could've still been talking about an average Vanessa.

Because Vanessa's average physical stats are mediocre, there's no solid evidence to suggest she was RNG screwed. She may well have been, that it doesn't make his argument any less valid.

I know all this. Did y'all miss the word "if" or something? I just happen to want to know if it's a case of PEMN or if it's a case of he doesn't like the real Vanessa.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Narga_Rocks

[Sunwoo]

Well, I'm just saying ... until Pat gets here and specifies that he looked at stats or what his Vanessa's level and stats, we can't say for sure. But anyway, I don't want to argue about this.

[Pat]

Uh... didn't know my opinion mattered so much. I'm just going off my memory. I don't know what her average stats are supposed to be, and I can't tell you exactly what her stats were in my playthrough - just what I remember, and what I remember was a lance-using swordmaster on a dragon without a crit bonus.

I didn't know this biz was so for srs... e_e

[Sunwoo]

Well, I guess things just get out of hand at times.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, I guess things just get out of hand at times.

I wouldn't say they get out of hand. This is all perfectly in hand, still.

Also, http://www.serenesforest.net/fe8/average/vanessafk.html

Yes, she's weak. Also why I give both pegs a +2 str and +7 hp item. Makes them so much more usable and I love 7->8 move flying units that double everything under the sun. Especially when they have the str to ORKO, though I remember Tana getting there much much easier.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Narga_Rocks

[Sunwoo]

Oh, I know that this wasn't a serious disagreement or anything, I meant that, well, the ratings aren't supposed to be - that - big of a deal, right? I assumed that the "rate the unit of the day" threads were pretty much a general idea of how different people value each unit's performance, then the averages are a general consensus view. So when I said, "I guess it got out of hand", I meant that maybe sometimes we take what other people rate units a bit seriously.