The Great LTC Debate Thread (Yay? Nay? Burn in Hell?)

[Anouleth]

Maybe instead of tiers we should put our energy into making guides. We constantly complain about the assery of the GameFAQs guides and yet we never do anything about it? Instead we plod on endlessly about tier lists which serve no one other than the cheap entertainment one gets from arguing.

Rather than complaining about the semantics that a tier list can't be a guide, what I was hoping to point out was that we make a guide instead of a tier list, first by pointing out the stupidity of a tier list for a noncompetitive game and then by offering that tiers be used for draft settings.

There are many "I Rate The Characters In FEX" topics. I've never written one, personally. I don't know FE4-7 well enough, I don't find FE8 or FE9 interesting enough, and there are already good rating topics for FE10.

[RNG Princess]

we should do favorites tier lists and compare them ;W;

[Othin]

"For whatever reasons"? That's awfully woolly. Is it turns saved? Enemies killed? Based on how many stats they cap?

Whatever the list's goal is. Could be minimizing turns, could be going for ranks. I'd say ideally it's going for the minimum score on the criteria I posted earlier, with probably the addition of an Arena ban.

And what assumptions prevail? Edward might not be a great pick for Part 1; will he be trained for Part 3 or Part 4?

Please recall what I always say on this matter and tell me what I think of assuming unit use.

And Part 3. In fact, all DB characters don't compete for deployment slots in Part 3.

Are the deployment slots low enough to use everyone? If so, then yeah, that's accurate, although it can impact whether or not you might want to use them earlier to train for those chapters.

[Aethereal]

Maybe instead of tiers we should put our energy into making guides. We constantly complain about the assery of the GameFAQs guides and yet we never do anything about it? Instead we plod on endlessly about tier lists which serve no one other than the cheap entertainment one gets from arguing.

Rather than complaining about the semantics that a tier list can't be a guide, what I was hoping to point out was that we make a guide instead of a tier list, first by pointing out the stupidity of a tier list for a noncompetitive game and then by offering that tiers be used for draft settings.

If you want a guide so bad, then make a guide, instead of telling others to.

[Colonel M]

Fire Emblem isn't competitive.

...What? How is it not competitive, just because its a player vs CPU environment? I guess in that case, any arcade game isn't competitive either!

[Othin]

...What? How is it not competitive, just because its a player vs CPU environment? I guess in that case, any arcade game isn't competitive either!

I already explained this.

Arcade games may be a different case due to requiring actual skill.

[Colonel M]

I already explained this.

Arcade games may be a different case due to requiring actual skill.

And Fire Emblem doesn't? It's fucking advertised as a Strategy Role Playing Game. Stratefuckingy. Does skill suddenly fall off the planet in a strategy game?

[Dark Sage]

ok i'm annoyed.

why was my post deleted? Everyone knows its true.

I mean seriously, FE doesn't require skill? WTF?

Edited April 3, 2012 by Dark Sage

[Aethereal]

Arcade games may be a different case due to requiring actual skill.

You're right, every one in the world, wether having played the game or not, plays Fire Emblem as well as every one else.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Narga_Rocks

[Narga_Rocks]

Stop making posts that are only insults, people.

[General Banzai]

If you want a guide so bad, then make a guide, instead of telling others to.

I don't want a guide though.

I want you guys to make a guide.

[Lord Raven]

I'll write it now: "The Tragedy of Dondon"

He tried so hard, and got so far

But in the end

It didn't even matter

So basically, "Why don't we make character guides?" "I did one, it was a wasted effort" "Oh sucks, I'm just going to make fun of you"

Seriously, Banzai?

[Loki Laufeyson]

I did make a character guide for FE7. But in the end it seems like a wholly wasted effort.

You did? Where is this...i didnt see it...

we should do favorites tier lists and compare them ;W;

SOREN IS GODTIER AND SO IS FLORINA!

Lawl.

I always saw character guides and tier lists as two different things with different intent. *shrug*

[BBM]

Tier lists can be useful for the purposes of a very short guide if that is their intent. For example, when I first started playing FE, I looked up a FE7 tier list just to see if the characters I liked were any good, or worth using. I didn't need to know how to use them well, or any tips, just whether or not they could be. So I looked up near the top, saw Raven, and gave him a shot that I might not otherwise have given him.

[Naglfar]

Snowy: your rating system is terrible, you just took the subtleties of tiering and turned them into numbers of equal value, which you would realise is completely impractical if you only thought about it for a bit

Othin: Seth doesn't even approach necessary, I'm talking about stuff like 1-P Edward and 1-9 BK that you literally can't do without, also no skill in FE, what the fuck is wrong with you

your tiering thing still arbitrarily quantifies shit and is still invalid for reasons outlined in my big post from earlier which you ignored

Banzai: you clearly don't even like tier lists and your posts have degenerated to you passively insulting people who do enjoy them, I suggest you stop posting

not to be condescending or anything but why are the people who like tiers the least consistently logic-impaired

Edited April 3, 2012 by Naglfar

[Lord Raven]

For anyone who cares, here's the FE7 character rating thread dondon was talking about.

[Naglfar]

He should have posted it to GameFAQs.

[General Banzai]

Banzai: you clearly don't even like tier lists and your posts have degenerated to you passively insulting people who do enjoy them, I suggest you stop posting

Oh please, spare me. I'm merely responding to the type of flak I've been receiving for eons. Dondon comes in here saying "tier lists can't be guides" with no explanation, no reasoning as to why, and asks me to give a counterexample. Instead of scrounging around for some kind of response to his totally unsupported claim, I decide to throw into light how ridiculous the whole charade is by giving a response equally pointless.

Suddenly dondon becomes this poor victim and I'm the illogical bastard. Of course the people expressing these claims are all people who agree with dondon's point of view from the start.

You guys strut around acting like assholes and insulting us but the second we turn on you it's halt the presses. Even look at yourself, spouting out insults in this very post.

Both sides here have devolved into petty bickering and both sides are in the wrong, and yet neither side wishes to admit it. We're the saddest stock of people on the face of the interwebz, mired 30 pages into a thread which still isn't sure what the difference between efficiency and LTC is, recycling the same points over and over with both sides believing their own arguments superior and the other side's arguments the rambling of baboons.

I said make a guide. Dondon said he did, it felt like a wasted effort. And what am I supposed to say to that? Is that some kind of argument? He made a guide that hardly anyone here had seen before, brought it up in the argument, and said an incredibly vague statement that it failed with no explanation as to why it failed or how its failure affected our argument. My response was as much use to the debate as his was to mine, but poor dondon's the victim here.

[Lord Raven]

dondon doesn't even give a shit about your pettiness.

You say "tier lists should serve as some sort of guide." Kindly bring up how they would function as a guide. They tell you nothing other than the fact that x unit is better than y unit just by virtue of being in this tier. That is it. Tier lists are about making arguments about who is better, and this in turn allows us players to play the game more effectively by learning more about the nuances of the game and how we can play it. Spare me your shit, because the entire 500+ page threads that argue the tier list tell far more than the tier list itself does.

It is not a hard concept to understand, considering the list doesn't even bring up how to use said units. The simplest argument to convey the point is in what way would a character like Reyson be better than a character like Devdan? I know if I bring Reyson in the middle of a bunch of enemies he'll get murdered violently. Yes, it's obvious why Reyson would be better; no, it does not give, in any way, a good idea as to why they are a better unit. It just creates an ordered list; if you want the "why" that makes it a guide for new players then you create a character guide, like dondon actually took initiative to do and you scoffed at it. And it's no wonder he thinks it's wasted effort, it's in the double digits as far as the page its at, and barely anyone responded to the last 10 characters worth of posts.

You guys strut around acting like assholes and insulting us but the second we turn on you it's halt the presses. Even look at yourself, spouting out insults in this very post.

Yes, because we are challenging your points and you are selectively ignoring ours. There is a difference. The amount of times Snowy has brought up the Marcia vs Jill debate- despite the fact that he was not involved himself and he did not grasp anywhere near every single nuance of the argument- is a testament to the kind of thing we argue against when i mention time and time again why that was the case only to get ignored later on.

And what am I supposed to say to that?

You ignore it. You're not doing yourself any favors by being a condescending asshole about it. Edited April 3, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[dondon151]

Dondon comes in here saying "tier lists can't be guides" with no explanation,

what

i had a very simple explanation: how can you convey the ideas in a character guide through an ordered list that has no notion of syntax or proper grammar structure?

I said make a guide. Dondon said he did, it felt like a wasted effort. And what am I supposed to say to that? Is that some kind of argument? He made a guide that hardly anyone here had seen before, brought it up in the argument, and said an incredibly vague statement that it failed with no explanation as to why it failed or how its failure affected our argument. My response was as much use to the debate as his was to mine, but poor dondon's the victim here.

yeah i knew that banzai was just being facetious which is why i replied with the lyrics to a beatles song

but the whole list was a bunch of effort (shit, typing those posts took awhile, and looking up all of those stats and doing mental arithmetic adds up), and it seems like hardly anyone really cared.

Edited April 3, 2012 by dondon151

[General Banzai]

How is saying that a tier list cannot be used as a guide a challenge to my statement any more than "you're wrong" is a challenge to that statement? Sure, Raven, you can come in and retroactively explain that it can't because Reyson/Devdan etc etc, and those are all valid points, but dondon didn't say any of that, he simply came in with his faux-apathy, spewed out some contradictory statement, and left it at that.

Now maybe had he said what you said, Raven, we wouldn't be mired in this fucking fiasco. Because now that you put it that way, I realize that you're right, and thus I revise my statement to be why don't we make guides INSTEAD of tier lists? To which dondon responded with "I did and it was a waste" without explaining how or why it was a waste, whether it was a waste because it was a guide, etc; from there we would need to compare whether the wastefulness of making guides compares to the wastefulness of making tiers, etc, etc... my problem is that dondon didn't say anything promoting any discussion whatsoever. I said "tiers are guides", he said "tiers can't be guides." I said "guides instead of tiers," he said "doesn't work, personal experience."

I simply responded with arguments as compelling and promoting discussion.

but the whole list was a bunch of effort (shit, typing those posts took awhile, and looking up all of those stats and doing mental arithmetic adds up), and it seems like hardly anyone really cared.

Now here's something. Now we would have to ask that, since we're basically using the same type of maths etc when arguing tiers, why does it seem more people care when doing tiers. Is the whole reason we do tiers because we feel more people care than when we make guides?

This is a proper launching point for discussion.

Edited April 3, 2012 by General Banzai

[Lord Raven]

A little searching and a little critical thinking is not a hard thing to do, considering that's exactly what I did.

[Sunwoo]

I'm sensing a lot of hostility here, perhaps from events not even related to FE. I suggest you guys all chill out actually talk about your problems because all I see here is a lot of anger.

[Naglfar]

Oh please, spare me. I'm merely responding to the type of flak I've been receiving for eons. Dondon comes in here saying "tier lists can't be guides" with no explanation, no reasoning as to why, and asks me to give a counterexample. Instead of scrounging around for some kind of response to his totally unsupported claim, I decide to throw into light how ridiculous the whole charade is by giving a response equally pointless.

Is it really not obvious why tier lists aren't guides, can't be guides, and aren't meant to be?

Suddenly dondon becomes this poor victim and I'm the illogical bastard. Of course the people expressing these claims are all people who agree with dondon's point of view from the start.

"Victim" what.

You guys strut around acting like assholes and insulting us but the second we turn on you it's halt the presses. Even look at yourself, spouting out insults in this very post.

You try having intelligent discussion with a bunch of people who keep repeating debunked arguments, failing to back up what they say and ignoring you, and then not getting a teensy bit pissed off.

Both sides here have devolved into petty bickering and both sides are in the wrong, and yet neither side wishes to admit it. We're the saddest stock of people on the face of the interwebz, mired 30 pages into a thread which still isn't sure what the difference between efficiency and LTC is, recycling the same points over and over with both sides believing their own arguments superior and the other side's arguments the rambling of baboons.

The superior arguments are the ones that are backed up. The rambling of baboons are the ones that aren't. This is pretty objective.

I said make a guide. Dondon said he did, it felt like a wasted effort. And what am I supposed to say to that? Is that some kind of argument? He made a guide that hardly anyone here had seen before, brought it up in the argument, and said an incredibly vague statement that it failed with no explanation as to why it failed or how its failure affected our argument. My response was as much use to the debate as his was to mine, but poor dondon's the victim here.

No, I don't think that was an argument. Note that dondon isn't actually arguing.

what

i had a very simple explanation: how can you convey the ideas in a character guide through an ordered list that has no notion of syntax or proper grammar structure?

yeah i knew that banzai was just being facetious which is why i replied with the lyrics to a beatles song

but the whole list was a bunch of effort (shit, typing those posts took awhile, and looking up all of those stats and doing mental arithmetic adds up), and it seems like hardly anyone really cared.

Again, it was a waste for you to not put it on GameFAQs.

[Colonel M]

I'm sensing a lot of hostility here, perhaps from events not even related to FE. I suggest you guys all chill out actually talk about your problems because all I see here is a lot of anger.

First time on the internet or...?

But honestly, I don't think either side cares about hostility. Hell... I think being a little hostile emphasizes the point more. Even if it seen as unprofessional in actual debates, people like me love to break the mold and give the middle finger to the normal people.

Besides, the said normal people stay in their same rut because they won't change. It's the crazy people that get somewhere in life!