RNG Abuse

[The Spanish Inquisition]

To clarify everything so everybody is on the same page here:

My new idea has two parts:

A. RN abuse is to be penalized by one turn per RN abused.

B. This does not extend to reset (as in resetting the chapter), since reset can be done on any FE, be it cartridge or ROM, with no distinct advantage in either case.

If you're worried about being called out for an amazing amount of luck, JUST RESET, DAMNIT.

Camtech has suggested I try to implement this in a draft. I will create such a draft if there are takers.

Are we clear?

To all: who immediately assume I'm stupid. I'm not. Just saying.

Well if you actually know your math then you should know that the player faces a fuckton of RNs through his/her time in playing through an FE game

a 1% may not look like much, but 1% over the course of hundreds of battles and likely thousands of RNs is likely to happen at some point

and there's really no way to tell unless it's incredibly obvious so why put a limit on it

Your proposition is going to do absolutely NOTHING except make drafts not fun

I never said a 1% will never happen. Hell, any idiot knows on average 1% will happen every 100 times. By the same idea, a draft is bound to have one good chapter in it somewhere.

I'm going to assume you missed the above post, or trolling me hard.

You don't think occasional 5%s are plausible. You don't know enough math to talk on a fucking web forum.

If you aim to RNG abuse your way to the top of the chain as a drafter, I pity you because nobody fucking cares and the person in question would have no life. I'm not accusing you, by the way, I know you'd prefer to be a legend through memory hacking and claiming it wasn't expressly forbidden.

Where did I say that occasional 5%s aren't plausible? I said 20 5%s in a row was unplausible.

[CT075]

create the damn draft and shut up

you can gloat or bitch about it when there are takers

for christ's sake

not to mention that your rule would result in exactly... one thing - the SAME PEOPLE stay at the top because the ones who RNG abuse will end up adding penalties to a turncount that would have lost anyway

Edited April 22, 2012 by Camtech

[Othin]

^ this person

Oh. Well, fuck that.

Fire Emblem drafts: srs business.

Really, I don't know anyone who actually keeps track of who wins and loses drafts. Often, who wins and loses is just as much a function of random chance than of the actual skill of the competitors; which goes double for your favourite drafts, the "no resets" or "limited resets" drafts. If, as happened to you, Seth was critted by Gheb, any player would be set back massively, and might lose to players of lesser skill by no fault of their own.

And because we don't keep track of who wins or loses drafts, that's not so huge of an issue, now is it?

Personally, I love the idea of having to come up with new strategies to work through weird situations like that. If I were to make a draft, it would be for the sake of giving several of us with those feelings the opportunity to get placed into wacky new situations and to strive to come up with new strategies on the fly to work through those situations while maintaining a level of friendly competition as a reason to work to do well. Meanwhile, the unpredictability would help avoid the situation of one player pulling so far ahead that the others don't feel like they have any hope of catching up.

This place seems a long way from that ideal, and for this reason, you'll notice that I have not started any drafts here. But times can change, and I enjoy challenges.

[CT075]

Personally, I love the idea of having to come up with new strategies to work through weird situations like that. If I were to make a draft, it would be for the sake of giving several of us with those feelings the opportunity to get placed into wacky new situations and to strive to come up with new strategies on the fly to work through those situations while maintaining a level of friendly competition as a reason to work to do well. Meanwhile, the unpredictability would help avoid the situation of one player pulling so far ahead that the others don't feel like they have any hope of catching up.

i agree with this 100% except for the final sentence

if someone ended up rng abusing to beat me, then that's fine with me. i know that they needed to use a "cheap trick" to beat me, and i can live with the moral superiority of "i didn't have to". fuck, i'd feel flattered that people consider me competent enough to feel that they actually need the edge to get the leg up on me

Edited April 22, 2012 by Camtech

[The Spanish Inquisition]

hey hey tsi

did it ever occur to you that you're wrong for a different reason?

you are taking things way too much like an engineer. just because there is an incredibly low chance of something happening does not mean that it can't. there could be more of a chance that i will explode from a nuclear bomb landing on my house than me getting my 4 turns on the prologue more than once, and yet multiple people can do it legitly.

oh yeah

something you also conveniently forgot

if there is a stupidly low chance that something will happen without rng abuse then there is a stupidly low chance that it will happen with it. you act as if rng abuse is some kind of instant "I WIN" button.

Get your facts straight before you pull out your fancy calculator

to use a modified version of the very the example you gave -

To land 100 hits at a 5% chance is about 8%*10¹³¹. Actually a bit less than that.

In order for me to pull it off WITH abuse, I'd need to wait until an RN string that is valid occurs. THE CHANCE OF THIS EVENT IS UNCHANGED.

you are quite right until

so your statement that the universe will implode before i get my perfect runthrough is complete bullshit, as it will still end up imploding before i can find the goddamn string of numbers that works out perfectly

Uh, you just contradicted yourself. My statement is bullshit because it is true?

[Othin]

i agree with this 100% except for the final sentence

if someone ended up rng abusing to beat me, then that's fine with me. i know that they needed to use a "cheap trick" to beat me, and i can live with the moral superiority of "i didn't have to". fuck, i'd feel flattered that people consider me competent enough to feel that they actually need the edge to get the leg up on me

So if I'm understanding this right, you're saying we don't need to worry much about enforcement at all? Now that's a very interesting idea.

[Anouleth]

Personally, I love the idea of having to come up with new strategies to work through weird situations like that. If I were to make a draft, it would be for the sake of giving several of us with those feelings the opportunity to get placed into wacky new situations and to strive to come up with new strategies on the fly to work through those situations while maintaining a level of friendly competition as a reason to work to do well.

That's fine. But don't act as if drafts have to be on some super-competitive level playing field, because that's not a situation you're ever going to be able to engineer in FE drafts.

[Othin]

That's fine. But don't act as if drafts have to be on some super-competitive level playing field, because that's not a situation you're ever going to be able to engineer in FE drafts.

As I said, I enjoy challenges.

[CT075]

no

your statement is bullshit because it is bullshit

and your counter is bullshit because you're taking things out of scope. to be fair, that's something you seem to be good at - ignoring scope. i can see you being a horrible programmer with that kind of attitude

if the universe will implode before i can get a legitimate 100*5% hit then it will implode before i can rig one, despite the fact that your entire shtick is about how someone who is willing to rig it gets an unfair advantage.

allow me to clarify your scope, since you seem to be incapable of it.

you pull up all these numbers to show me that i will never get that legitimately lucky in my lifetime.

you also just agreed that this is true with or without rng abuse.

and yet here i am, showing you proof that this event actually occurred in my lifetime, gasp!

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM HERE

why are we penalizing people just for getting insanely lucky, again?

my statement is only a contradiction because you're either deliberately or unintentionally (and if it is the latter case i honestly wonder what idiot professor let you into those math classes, even ignoring the fact that you were apparently covered in blood) ignoring the actual point i'm trying to make

not to mention

for the fourth or fifth time

Since I'm apparently the only person here who keeps track of people who seem to win a lot of drafts, I can tell you right here that nobody currently on my list (FE10 excepted) has given me cause to believe that they RNG abused to get their score. As long as it's not balls-to-the-wall ridiculous like dodging ten million 99%s in the same phase, a skilled player can still win against one who rng abuses.

So if I'm understanding this right, you're saying we don't need to worry much about enforcement at all? Now that's a very interesting idea.

that's the general idea. and you're completely right in extending my logic to that extreme; there's no way to really force someone to follow the rules you set aside from their own integrity (and i don't consider playing against someone who needs to cheat to win as "friendly competition" i consider that "an exercise in patience")

you missed the part where i (and others) implied that it's mostly impossible to really prove anything anyway

this is why i only draft with specific people (or in like FE4 where you can RNG as much as you like and still end up losing by a stupidly large margin if you don't know what you're doing) - i trust that they will play on as level a field as we can manage

Edited April 22, 2012 by Camtech

[Othin]

that's the general idea. and you're completely right in extending my logic to that extreme; there's no way to really force someone to follow the rules you set aside from their own integrity (and i don't consider playing against someone who needs to cheat to win as "friendly competition" i consider that "an exercise in patience")

you missed the part where i (and others) implied that it's mostly impossible to really prove anything anyway

this is why i only draft with specific people (or in like FE4 where you can RNG as much as you like and still end up losing by a stupidly large margin if you don't know what you're doing) - i trust that they will play on as level a field as we can manage

As I said, I'm not concerned with proof. My solution is much what you say: play with people who will hopefully follow the rules, and if not, well, as you said, maybe that's not so bad.

[BBM]

or in like FE4 where you can RNG as much as you like and still end up losing by a stupidly large margin if you don't know what you're doing

This is so true. I need to get better at this game because I still have no clue how I lost to Horace by like 100 turns in that one FE4 draft I did.

[The Spanish Inquisition]

no

your statement is bullshit because it is bullshit

and your counter is bullshit because you're taking things out of scope. to be fair, that's something you seem to be good at - ignoring scope. i can see you being a horrible programmer with that kind of attitude

if the universe will implode before i can get a legitimate 100*5% hit then it will implode before i can rig one, despite the fact that your entire shtick is about how someone who is willing to rig it gets an unfair advantage.

allow me to clarify your scope, since you seem to be incapable of it.

you pull up all these numbers to show me that i will never get that legitimately lucky in my lifetime.

you also just agreed that this is true with or without rng abuse.

and yet here i am, showing you proof that this event actually occurred in my lifetime, gasp!

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM HERE

why are we penalizing people just for getting insanely lucky, again?

my statement is only a contradiction because you're either deliberately or unintentionally (and if it is the latter case i honestly wonder what idiot professor let you into those math classes, even ignoring the fact that you were apparently covered in blood) ignoring the actual point i'm trying to make

not to mention

for the fourth or fifth time

Since I'm apparently the only person here who keeps track of people who seem to win a lot of drafts, I can tell you right here that nobody currently on my list (FE10 excepted) has given me cause to believe that they RNG abused to get their score. As long as it's not balls-to-the-wall ridiculous like dodging ten million 99%s in the same phase, a skilled player can still win against one who rng abuses.

Congratulations. You have successfully kicked a person in the balls, then beat them to death before they were able to raise an arm in defense. Happy?

Moving on, let's assume we have two skilled players of equal level, but one can rng abuse. Who wins? I think you know the answer here.

And Horace did say (first page of this thread) he rigged crits, which is RNG abuse. We all know he's a very skilled drafter that probably doesn't need to rng. Except he said that he did. I'm not in anyway saying OMG YOU NEED TO RNG TO DO WELL IN DRAFTS. I'm just interested in how well a person does in drafts with or without rnging.

And no, remember your words might sound very clear to yourself in your head, but this does not mean they will translate well over the internet.

Also I just checked through all the posts, and I see no proof shown that said event happened in your lifetime (aside from the hack you admitted to performing)

First, I assume you don't mean the Hall of Fame, since as you implied, a skilled drafter doesn't need a favorable RNG to do well.

Next, we are penalizing people for getting insanely lucky because there is a much higher chance of a person RNG abusing (since it is much faster, so burns through the probability events faster) over a given period of time.

Why am I even bothering to answer this, obviously my idea is worthless.

[CT075]

why would i need to kick you in the balls i can beat you to death perfectly well without you doubled over in pain

horace rng abuses to get around unreasonable circumstances. try to beat fe4 chapter 5 with just sigurd. please. and then tell me that you can't see any justification for rigging one or two crits in that scenario.

two equal players, one with rng abuse and one without? of course the former will win, that's why it's so much more satisfying to win a draft- it proves that you're unequal.

i wonder where that experimental draft you were going to make is

Edited April 22, 2012 by Camtech

[Anouleth]

Congratulations. You have successfully kicked a person in the balls, then beat them to death before they were able to raise an arm in defense. Happy?

Yes, because winning an argument on the internet is totally the same as physically beating someone until they die.

[Othin]

Yes, because winning an argument on the internet is totally the same as physically beating someone until they die.

I like to think of it that way whenever I can convince myself I'm winning.

[Anouleth]

I like to think of it that way whenever I can convince myself I'm winning.

I don't like to imagine myself violently killing other people, but to each his own.

[Othin]

I don't like to imagine myself violently killing other people, but to each his own.

Yep, and that's why I'm me and you're not.

If we were all me, the world would be a much stranger place.

[Dark Sage]

We would all play Berwick Saga in a world of Othins.

[Toothache]

Wow. Just wow.

I can't believe someone is arguing for RNGing penalties? Penalising someone for a natural part of the game is a terrible idea. Besides, it would be impossible to enforce, as pointed out before.

[General Horace]

first off this thread made me headdesk about 23 times

And Horace did say (first page of this thread) he rigged crits, which is RNG abuse. We all know he's a very skilled drafter that probably doesn't need to rng. Except he said that he did. I'm not in anyway saying OMG YOU NEED TO RNG TO DO WELL IN DRAFTS. I'm just interested in how well a person does in drafts with or without rnging.

Ok let's break this apart. We're in Chapter 5 (FE4) with this team that I yoinked from DTE I'm assuming you haven't played FE4, making the above comment.

(Ayra, Aideen, Lex, Cuan, Noish, Midir) and Sigurd. are the units I have avaliable.

A boss in chapter 5 Langbart, has 75 HP/41def/20res with his weapon bonuses. He also has 51 attack and 1-2 range.

- A max level average Ayra has 44 MT with the silver sword, she's doing 3 damage per hit. She can proc astra and continue for more hits. 25HKO.

- Aideen does poor damage and is OHKO'd, if she promotes.

- Lex has poor hit, doesn't have pursuit, and does 8 total damage with the hero axe, and is 3HKO'd in return at a good hitrate.

- Cuan doesn't exist

- Noish and Midir can't do fuck all, their stats are too poor.

- Sigurd has the same damage output as Ayra, without Astra or Continue.

On top of that, he has a 30% chance to proc great shield, which nullifies an attack, and recovers roughly 15 HP per turn.

How the fuck are you going to kill him without rigging criticals.

The RNG abuse I do is so I can score 2 roughly 30% criticals on him over the course of 8 attacks. Ask Integrity, Shin, Cam or really any FE4 draft that has had to deal with bosses such as these. They'll say the same thing.

And most of my turncounts don't come from rigging crits. The bosses that I rig crits on in FE7 drafts are as follows:

- Kenneth if Silver doesn't ORKO, with a killer weapon.

- Limstella, while quadrupaling with a brave weapon. Limstella has 0 luck. Over the course of 8 attacks, you're bound to get at least one crit unless you're unlucky.

RNG abuse is something that's never gonna leave drafting, no matter how much people argue for/against it. The degrees of it vary (sometimes) drastically with the player.

People are supposed to log how they beat chapters for a reason too. Now, I know my logs suck, but when somebody has asked how a certain chapter has been cleared, I, (and most everybody really) are more than happy to oblige and tell how they beat said chapter.

The RNG abuse that I frown on is the people who say, rig Silver lance crits with jeigan on chapter 1/2 bosses (poor hit, 5% crit), or convienently have units with very severe blessings in important areas (str/spd/def) for important characters (like Vanessa or someone).

And to the idea where you get penalized per RN burn, because the people who already severly RNG abuse would say that they didn't. It. just.wouldn't.work.

[eclipse]

first off this thread made me headdesk about 23 times

You counted?

I don't mind losing to someone who outplays me based on strategy. Horace is one example of a player that can do that.

EDIT: Also, Chapter 13 in Shadow Dragon is one place where I don't mind if people rig a miss or two. There's only two melee units that can damage you, and having Marth survive is a crapshoot.

Edited April 22, 2012 by eclipse

[Integrity]

I didn't want to respond to this thread again because I just want it to die, but Anouleth provoked me.

Really, I don't know anyone who actually keeps track of who wins and loses drafts.

Technically, I do. :D

The RNG abuse I do is so I can score 2 roughly 30% criticals on him over the course of 8 attacks. Ask Integrity, Shin, Cam or really any FE4 draft that has had to deal with bosses such as these. They'll say the same thing.

I have always freely admitted to RN abusing Alvis. This is because:

Alvis' 80hp and four trillion DEF/RES and 900 attack or whatever his parameters are ensure that the list of units who can damage him is roughly: Holesty kid, Celice, Ares. The Holsety kid has a modest chance of getting 1HKOd in return. Celice has to get Tyrfing to even damage Alvis modestly.

Topping that off, Alvis has Nihil (ha ha ha no critting) and Celice has a ~60% hit on him at cap Skill. Also, Alvis has Great Shield.

Some bosses in FE4 and FE6 (8x) are such RN crapshoots that it's essentially assumed that one will abuse a little bit to kill them. That's why our unspoken system works, because otherwise you'll end up with a busted system where you're going to have to soldier through what could be 30 turns (I'm not making this up) of collectively not killing Henning (and possibly losing units just because he's a cunt) or you'll have a system where everybody just 1RKOs him when they get there.

It's also notably that, in none of these scenarios, do Horace or I abuse for pure hits. Technically, Celice can 2RKO Alvis (20x2 / 20x2) and knock him off his throne. Since Alvis regenerates between turns, either this means 4 hits out of 4 EP + PP + Cantoseize or 5 hits out of 6 PP + EP + PP + Cantoseize. At 60% hit, with a 30% chance for a solid hit to be nullified. Unless I have somebody else who can also damage him, I never abuse straight for that most optimal scenario, but go for something that kills him in two turns worth of fighting (seizing on the third) unless the RNG actually falls such that Celice nails him on the second.

Also note that this is in FE4, where RN abuse via Arena is fully possible and fairly trivial without states.

[Vicious Sal]

1335065561[/url]' post='1949530']

Shin and Horace have their little rivalry, but aside from little rivalries like that no one else really cares who wins or loses a draft. It's all for fun.

I have my obsession with completing fe12 draft in under 100 turns

Speaking of which, i restarted, i repeat, restarted, that draft about seven times now, finding or getting pointed out new strats while i am at chapter 17 or 24 or very late in the game. I created an ongoing tinkering worksheet of where exactly to use all staves and positioning. I take it way to seriously. Nut i enjoy it. And i can tell you now, i have given up a fuckton of blessed units. Currently, i even host a draft where rng abuse is encouraged. And i will open another one of those. Because its for dte. I will update myself on those tomorrow, and ill check on pkls turns for the dibs draft.... Also, rng penalty draft was hosted. Responses werent that encouraging.

[MacLovin]

I've bled through multiple classes of calculus, diff eqs, linear algebra, number theory, abstract algebra, prob/stat, and analysis, so, Lumi and anyone else, NEVER say I don't know enough math to talk on a fucking web forum. Check my math yourself. You'll see it's right. If it's wrong, point it out to me, don't tell me fuck off.

At least Banzai's "English Major" Line was actually funny

Noone cares, since most of the equations and shit are on the main site.

hey hey tsi

did it ever occur to you that you're wrong for a different reason?

you are taking things way too much like an engineer. just because there is an incredibly low chance of something happening does not mean that it can't. there could be more of a chance that i will explode from a nuclear bomb landing on my house than me getting my 4 turns on the prologue more than once, and yet multiple people can do it legitly.

oh yeah

something you also conveniently forgot

if there is a stupidly low chance that something will happen without rng abuse then there is a stupidly low chance that it will happen with it. you act as if rng abuse is some kind of instant "I WIN" button.

Get your facts straight before you pull out your fancy calculator

to use a modified version of the very the example you gave -

To land 100 hits at a 5% chance is about 8%*10¹³¹. Actually a bit less than that.

In order for me to pull it off WITH abuse, I'd need to wait until an RN string that is valid occurs. THE CHANCE OF THIS EVENT IS UNCHANGED.

so your statement that the universe will implode before i get my perfect runthrough is complete bullshit, as it will still end up imploding before i can find the goddamn string of numbers that works out perfectly

You make him look like god.

Congratulations. You have successfully kicked a person in the balls, then beat them to death before they were able to raise an arm in defense. Happy?

Moving on, let's assume we have two skilled players of equal level, but one can rng abuse. Who wins? I think you know the answer here.

And Horace did say (first page of this thread) he rigged crits, which is RNG abuse. We all know he's a very skilled drafter that probably doesn't need to rng. Except he said that he did. I'm not in anyway saying OMG YOU NEED TO RNG TO DO WELL IN DRAFTS. I'm just interested in how well a person does in drafts with or without rnging.

And no, remember your words might sound very clear to yourself in your head, but this does not mean they will translate well over the internet.

Also I just checked through all the posts, and I see no proof shown that said event happened in your lifetime (aside from the hack you admitted to performing)

First, I assume you don't mean the Hall of Fame, since as you implied, a skilled drafter doesn't need a favorable RNG to do well.

Next, we are penalizing people for getting insanely lucky because there is a much higher chance of a person RNG abusing (since it is much faster, so burns through the probability events faster) over a given period of time.

Why am I even bothering to answer this, obviously my idea is worthless.

Yes, it is.

Wow. Just wow.

I can't believe someone is arguing for RNGing penalties? Penalising someone for a natural part of the game is a terrible idea. Besides, it would be impossible to enforce, as pointed out before.

Well, obviously, we should do every draft at 0% growths.

Oh, wait, and we would have to have every unit get hit because dodging is abuse.

Oh, and stack penelties for finishing every chapter.

TSI is an insult to everyone who has ever drafted.

first off this thread made me headdesk about 23 times

Ok let's break this apart. We're in Chapter 5 (FE4) with this team that I yoinked from DTE I'm assuming you haven't played FE4, making the above comment.

(Ayra, Aideen, Lex, Cuan, Noish, Midir) and Sigurd. are the units I have avaliable.

A boss in chapter 5 Langbart, has 75 HP/41def/20res with his weapon bonuses. He also has 51 attack and 1-2 range.

- A max level average Ayra has 44 MT with the silver sword, she's doing 3 damage per hit. She can proc astra and continue for more hits. 25HKO.

- Aideen does poor damage and is OHKO'd, if she promotes.

- Lex has poor hit, doesn't have pursuit, and does 8 total damage with the hero axe, and is 3HKO'd in return at a good hitrate.

- Cuan doesn't exist

- Noish and Midir can't do fuck all, their stats are too poor.

- Sigurd has the same damage output as Ayra, without Astra or Continue.

On top of that, he has a 30% chance to proc great shield, which nullifies an attack, and recovers roughly 15 HP per turn.

How the fuck are you going to kill him without rigging criticals.

The RNG abuse I do is so I can score 2 roughly 30% criticals on him over the course of 8 attacks. Ask Integrity, Shin, Cam or really any FE4 draft that has had to deal with bosses such as these. They'll say the same thing.

And most of my turncounts don't come from rigging crits. The bosses that I rig crits on in FE7 drafts are as follows:

- Kenneth if Silver doesn't ORKO, with a killer weapon.

- Limstella, while quadrupaling with a brave weapon. Limstella has 0 luck. Over the course of 8 attacks, you're bound to get at least one crit unless you're unlucky.

RNG abuse is something that's never gonna leave drafting, no matter how much people argue for/against it. The degrees of it vary (sometimes) drastically with the player.

People are supposed to log how they beat chapters for a reason too. Now, I know my logs suck, but when somebody has asked how a certain chapter has been cleared, I, (and most everybody really) are more than happy to oblige and tell how they beat said chapter.

The RNG abuse that I frown on is the people who say, rig Silver lance crits with jeigan on chapter 1/2 bosses (poor hit, 5% crit), or convienently have units with very severe blessings in important areas (str/spd/def) for important characters (like Vanessa or someone).

And to the idea where you get penalized per RN burn, because the people who already severly RNG abuse would say that they didn't. It. just.wouldn't.work.

Eh, yeah, and besides.

For your Fabulous fe8 Draft, I had to rig a lvl or 2 because my Forde was getting really fucking screwed in str/spd.

[Othin]

So rig a crit or two when it's worth the penalty. All depends on what the penalty is, but is that so bad?