Bluedoom Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 then why don't you i play a draft for like two reasons- a) as friendly competition with horace/shin and b) to use a team that i would otherwise never think of using. no other reason. if those things don't appeal to you, don't play. Your reason b is moot.. You can do that in a normal playthrough too if you wanted to challenge yourself. Heck you can impose as many restrictions and other stuff on yourself in your own playthrough, create your own rules. Heck just do a PMU playthrough if that's a big deal to you. While the first reason seems good enough, your second reason is off. Think of all the units that you don't use often and use them. Drafts motivate you to do this, honestly? Just letting you know, I don't care much for turn counts either, and generally play them for passtime(and completion is important, something which I've failed to dp.) And yes I do my own playthroughs thank you very much for that wonderful advice. See RNG abuse is annoying at times, but its not like I'm throwing a tantrum over here. You just asked why people get don't like RNG abuse and such, and I answered. I see you're quite pissed off. :3 @save states: They're ok IMO. They allow you to not restart all over and get bored of the draft. They're as good as those save spots in FE DS games, or battle saves in FE10. Besides people who play on cart CHOSE to play on cart(not always the case, I admit, but emulation is like free and usually is better, why not use it?) . Save state loading is not as bad as rigging almost impossible situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Besides people who play on cart CHOSE to play on cart(not always the case, I admit, but emulation is like free and usually is better, why not use it?) . Because it is legally/morally questionable? Seriously who asks such stupid questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 emulation is like free and usually is better, why not use it? Okay, then, you tell me how legal emulation and ROMs are. Not everyone likes skirting the legal line. -_- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk King Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I have no problem with people using save states either. I just have a problem with people using them for ridiculous RNG abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Cam, there's a reason why there's stuff like drug testing for athletes. . .though FE drafts are nowhere near as intense as a given professional sport, the sentiment is the same. Win because you were able to work with what you have, not rig what you have so you can throw strategy out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedoom Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Okay, then, you tell me how legal emulation and ROMs are. Not everyone likes skirting the legal line. -_- Ok, I forgot that point, but honestly its not that easy to 'catch' a person using a ROM illegally. I do know some people like playing cart for legal reasons, no need to tell me that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) and nobody has actually given me a reason that we care that someone wins a competition that has nothing riding on it by turning the game off and back on again in some shape or form Why not care? Edited April 21, 2012 by Paperblade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toothache Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Personally, I only use a save state at the start of every turn, simply as a time saver in drafting, and the fact that I'd play that particular turn the same way anyway. I think this is an acceptable use of save stating without aiming for super manipulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Drafts are competitions. RNG abuse is seen by some as cheating. I dont care about records but competing against people with "unfair" advantages isnt fun, and it defeats the purpose of doing drafts. I personally dont have a problem with it but im pretty sure some people do. I was just simply trying to explain how having save states gives an advantage over players who play on cartridges. You do know that causing a movement line to "redraw" itself diagonally to your character can tell you if a RN is above or below 50 right? All you need to do is find a sequence of RNs below 50, reset 1 time, and then get back to that sequence. Im specifically refering to FE6-8 here btw... Why is it a big deal...... Seriously, I've entered drafts with expert drafters, and y'know what. Unless it's one with all 3 of Horace/Shin/Cam, it's usually pretty easygoing. I mean, why are you complaining, there's no fucking way to tell if RNG abuse has been used. and, this is why I people will not take you seriously in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 @hk: i will take whatever attitude i please with you for whatever reason you deem unreasonable if i so desire i can't tell if you even comprehend what i'm saying anymore. i just explained why savestates are an advantage if you really want to get into it - yes, savestates make rng manips easier. congrats, you've succeeded in stating the obvious, here's your prize. what is your point? you have no other purpose here, then why even bother? what is it about this knowledge that you think we're lacking? as i've stated more than once, people like horace are still at the top, despite the legions of rng abusers playing against him. simply having good stats =/= winning; nor does one hit against one boss. I agree that rigging like entire enemy phases is a bit overboard - it takes things from casual competition to extremes @marth Give me one reason to play a PMU over a draft. Please. RNG abusers won't ruin my fun either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) So, what TSI and HK are saying We should be penalized for luck? Also, everyone RNG abuses to some extent. Even Horace does the fe8 prologue 2 turn. Edited April 21, 2012 by Folgore Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Aren't roms legal if you have the game off the computer as well? I remember hearing about that somewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) Aren't roms legal if you have the game off the computer as well? I remember hearing about that somewhere... Nope, unless you dump the ROM yourself. Edited April 21, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spanish Inquisition Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 If you get to that situation, you ought to be able to justify why you can RNG. I'm not disallowing freak miracles, like a 3% crit, that might actually randomly occur, I'm simply trying to disallow forcing miracles. If a character dies in the process, at the very least, there's always reset... So, what TSI and HK are saying We should be penalized for luck? No, I assume you missed that post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Essentially, my view of your point is that people who play on Emulators should be handicapped. That removes like, 60% of the drafters. You would be just eliminating the majority of drafters. Also, if someone rigs shit for something like the fe6 desert, it'd be understandable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) Also, if someone rigs shit for something like the fe6 desert, it'd be understandable. You can get those items with a 100% surefire method that would work on cartridges (not that I know anyone here outside of Toothache that actually owns FE6), so no need to RNG abuse for that, at least in the classic sense. Edited April 21, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 did you not see the "for the sake of discussion"? yes i realize that it's an unlikely scenario if it were to be as i stated, but is it so improbable that you end up relying on SOME large amount of other-wise reliable %s to proc in the same phase? I'd consider 85% an acceptable number to go for, and I honestly don't think it'd raise any eyebrows if someone had actually had that come to fruition. And any time the large amount of percentages is enough that you would have such a low chance of getting it to work, you shouldn't be relying on it. Not a difficult concept. You seem to have this idea that just because an attack has high accuracy, you have some birthright to have it hit every single time you want it to. You don't. To play it that way is to obstruct and override the Hit/Avoid system that is a key part of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 i have a reasonable expectation that an attack marked with 95% chance will hit. it would not raise any eyebrows if it were to do so some stupidly large number of times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 85% hit means that you will miss approximately one every 7 attacks. That means that if I have 4 units that all double with that hit rate, I should reasonable expect about one of them to miss every player phase. at 95%, that means that between player and enemy phase with a team of about 6 units, I would reasonably expect at least one attack to miss. The problem is that most players have confused hit rates above 80 or so with 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) So you have 46 attacks on EP. I don't feel like setting up the RN string so I'll just use that 95% true hit here (should be 84 displayed or so, anyway). Now, while it's unlikely that every attack will hit, like Cam demonstrated with the percentage being lower than 10%, the expected value of the number of hits that will land is 43.7 hits. That's...almost every hit out of the 46. I haven't done statistics in a while so I won't get into standard deviation and the such, but would it be unreasonable to assume that hitting all 46 hit could be a result of just slightly higher luck (like getting 2 more hp than average or something, aka not a big deal) and not even surprise bullshit luck (low percentage mercenary critical! Unlikely to happen but it does anyway)? That's what cam's getting at. While the percentage on paper of x event happening is low, that event actually happening is not implausible, and it happening, while it /can/ be rigged (why the fuck would someone rig a string of something like 92 RNs is beyond me), in this case it's actually more likely that it's just an insinificant stroke of good luck. Anyway I don't really care much either way on this subject, though FE4 Leptor going at drafting speed was a dick in the ass without going for double Hero crit. On a normal pt I'd have Levin handle this crap, but dealing with Thor Hammer and bullshit Great Shield activations could still mean dead Sigurd. Easily. Such a dick. Edited April 21, 2012 by Luminescent Blade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) thank you lumi yes, maybe having to hit that many attacks is probably a sign that a change of approach is necessary but that's not even relevant but the point i was trying to make (that was like several pages back and i don't think that anyone really challenged me on that) is that setting a total minimum % that a strategy will give you problems with scope - you could, in theory, rig that many RN's just for the sake of it, just like you'd rig for singles; it's just way more time consuming. Edited April 21, 2012 by Camtech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) Yes Lumi I know, but people act like you should always hit every attack every time. Edited April 21, 2012 by Paperblade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) Cam's point wasn't people should treat every hit as 100% ever, but just that if 46 hits at 95% true happened, it's pretty damn hard to tell if it's rigged or just luck. It was a counter to that other guy's silly cap on RNG rigging since it didn't make much sense mathematically. Under that proposition, people could get penalised for just getting lucky. But I do agree that hits shouldn't be treated as landing every time unless it's 100% (and hell if FE6's faulty 100 screws you in the ass I think you should be able to redo that part specifically because fuck getting screwed over by rounding errors). Getting fucked over because you missed on a 99% displayed on any 2 RN system does royally suck, though. Edited April 21, 2012 by Luminescent Blade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I was more talking in generalities, I'm pretty sure we already agreed that the other guy's thing was too difficult to implement due to everyone having different opinions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Fair enough, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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