Rate the Unit, Day 32: Ulki

[ZemZem]

Dat Rules (stolen/borrowed from Integrity)

- Ratings are assumed to be on Hard Mode+Fixed Mode.

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly.

+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.

- Numerical votes out of 10, or something proportional to it. Make it easy to calculate for my sake.

- Every ranking phase ends whenever I get out of bed, between 0700 and 0800 EST. Do the math for your timezone, Brits.

- I will insist you do not use the "Not X" reason on any character, where X is another unit. If you do, your vote will be thrown out.

- "Recruits X" or "takes you to X chapter" arguments are explicitly banned. C'mon, people, this shouldn't need to be a rule. That's not gameplay performance.

- Assume that the character in question is being recruited.

- Similar to the "Recruits X" rule, do not use "she brings the sonic sword" or any other justification as an argument.

- BEXP is free to be used in any quantity on any character.

- Rating a unit too low because you think its overrated will make me throw away your vote without mercy public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif.

- I withhold the privilege to tell you your rating is bogus and demand you revise it if it breaks any of the above. I will not throw out votes anonymously, you will be informed and given a chance to revise.

Averages:

Rolf: 1.15

Sothe: 2.03

Brom: 2.32

Shinon: 3.00

Janaff: 3.32

Devdan: 4.11

Volke : 4.82

Ilyana: 4.98

Soren: 5.15

Rhys: 5.31

Gatrie: 5.46

Mia: 5.71

Muarim: 6.19

Mist: 6.41

Mordecai: 6.55

Makalov: 6.59

Tormod: 6.62

Zihark: 6.65

Lethe: 6.75

Nephenee: 6.79

Stefan: 7.40

Astrid: 7.76

Boyd: 8.29

Ike: 8.57

Tanith: 9.08

Oscar: 9.08

Kieran: 9.23

Jill: 9.31

Marcia: 9.36

Reyson: 9.79

Titania: 9.91

Nothing to say, really. I personally don't like this guy.

[Ema Skye]

He's basically Janaff, except he doesn't transform at the beginning of the map. His base speed is 12 compared to Janaff's 17, and he's got nothing to make up for it (+2 HP, +2 Str, +3 Def is hardly worth five speed). Growth rate wise, they're about the same (+/-5 isn't a huge difference).

2.75

[Lord Raven]

2.5/10

because janaff sucks, ulki sucks harder. vigilance doesn't do him any good when he can't transform or double

at least he has a chance at capping str for transfers

[Shadow Mir]

2.5/10. I... have... not a lot to say about this guy. But I'd have to give him lower than I would have given Janaff.

[Silent Mercenary]

Pros:

+Vigilance is a good skill, and covers up for the low avoid/dodge he would have otherwise. But it doesn't cover his attack speed issues. :\

+Great HP, Str and Skl growths with averageh Def and Res

+Water affinity, and the best part being all his supports give Attack, meaning he could have an 8.2 Atk lead over Janaff in average and that goes a long way. The lead is also over Lethe (6.3) and Muarim (1.1) that have no Atk-raising supports, and Ranulf with Mordecai A or B (1.3). Ulki/Mordecai is +3 Atk/Def to both. Add in a Boyd or Rhys B for 2 Atk/1 Def/5 Hit.

~He's worth giving some Str help (Str-giving bands and/or Energy Drop) to cap it if you plan to transfer. He can also max HP with a robe.

~Cancel as an Occult skill

Cons:

-1 for slow laguz transformation, although he at least has 5 at the start like Muarim

-3 for terrible Speed, he will need some Speedwings and other help there to get better. Vigilance helps with the avoiding part, but Janaff can get beat his avoid with a few supports. His attack speed is his bane unless you work around it.

-.5 locked to melee range

-.5 locked to weak beak

+.75 flying and high move but no re-moving (canto)

+.25 for Water affinity to help out the hawk weakness

+1 bias for personality/appearance/etc.

7/10 His PoR self not as good as his RD self where he has better speed, and "untransformed fighting, better caps and Wildheart/lots of laguz stones/olivi grass available". I find lategame>midgame and this vote won't matter much anyway.

(He's been the only unit that I've ever seen get a 9-stat level up, and that was a bit after surviving Naesala's 2 attacks while Demibanded (that's his good HP/Def working there). I know Naesala is more likelier for this, but just giving it a mention. I once gave him the 2 statue shards, and he served as a flying smiter for Marcia, Elincia and the foot-beorc.)

[Samias]

Pros:

+Vigilance is sweet

+Water affinity works out for him. His support with Boyd makes me happy.

+Pretty good HP and defense for a flier

Cons:

-Really bad speed

-Can't move after attacking

-Crappy weapon

-Bad transform gauge

Poor Ulki. If Janaff was meh, Ulki is just as bad from a lack of luck and speed. Vigilance keeps his avoid up but otherwise he is worse at dodging than Janaff. Ulki is bulky but since he doesn't transform right away, he won't be seeing the battlefield when you really want him to be. Funny thing is, I always use Ulki if only because I really, really love his support with Boyd. It really warms my internal shipper. Anyway, Ulki is pretty lackluster by this point in the game but unlike most laguz he might actually cap some stats, so it's not a total lost cause. I'll give him 3/10, with a +1 bias point for some hilarious awkward moments with Boyd, to bump him up to 4/10.

[dondon151]

Cons:

-3 for terrible Speed, he will need some Speedwings and other help there to get better. Vigilance helps with the avoiding part, but Janaff can get beat his avoid with a few supports. His attack speed is his bane unless you work around it.

really

only -3 for having horrendous AS in a game where everyone and their mother doubles more than half of the enemies at least

even fucking devdan doubles enemies and devdan is slow as testes

-.5 locked to melee range

pretty sure 80+% of the cast has access to a non-shitty ranged weapon

-.5 locked to weak beak

and 80+% of the cast also has access to weapons stronger than a beak

plus your addition makes no sense

[Caliban of Sycorax]

At least Ulki gets a dodge boost.

4/10

[Silent Mercenary]

really

only -3 for having horrendous AS in a game where everyone and their mother doubles more than half of the enemies at least

even fucking devdan doubles enemies and devdan is slow as testes

pretty sure 80+% of the cast has access to a non-shitty ranged weapon

and 80+% of the cast also has access to weapons stronger than a beak

plus your addition makes no sense

I use the same parameters for everyone, I took -3 off Janaff for his Str/Defenses, I took -3 off Ulki for his speed, and the other -.5's are the same as Jan's and other melee range units (or one-weapon units). A maxed Str, transformed hawk (which Ulki can pull off and Janaff comes close) has 39(32+7) might. A male swordmaster has a 24 str cap and the highest might of a non-forged weapon they can wield is 15 (Silver Blade). Are there many complaints of Zihark or Stefan's strength cap going around (taking aside Zihark's base)?

At base level: transformed!Ulki has 15 speed, Devdan has 13. At average level 20, transformed!Ulki has 22.8 speed, Devdan has 18.6. If you want to try in the Knight Ward in here, that is 4.5 for Devdan for a .3 lead, but I can throw in any speed giving band, and that is .65 for Ulki, meaning he gets a .35 lead. KnightWard!Devdan and ThiefBand!Ulki have the same speed growth 65%. Change the transformed to demibanded and that's -1 speed for all Ulki stats mentioned previously, meaning Devdan would only have a the lead (.65) if KnightWarded and Ulki is currently demibanded. We could talk about BExp abusing, in which Devdan can cap to 26 and Ulki gets to 25 untransformed, or anything else for that matter, but it would not give Devdan enough of a lead to say Devdan doubles enemies that Ulki doesn't or viceversa when their leads over each other aren't significant enough to warrant this in general and they are both average.

My addition makes no sense? Well, I take off from a perfect 10 and substract cons and add up significant pros over a regular unit (flying, good affinities, etc.) Ulki's was 10 - 5 + 1 = 6 + 1bias. The 6 is only .5 higher than my Janaff's score (5.5) which nobody contested. My reasoning for it is that a Demibanded!Ulki is of more assistance than a transformed now and not later Janaff (or if demibanded later, you have to use his last turn to unequip him so he comes with the 16 gauge next chapter) overall, due to sturdiness and strength. It may seem a matter of opinion but nobody else has set a numerical system for rating factors of an unit, so I use my own and keep it constant throughout my ratings. If somebody else makes a numerical rating system detailing all those aspects, I would comply and change my ratings accordingly, but nobody has because in the end, it's all a matter of play.

The reason why this is a good ratings list is because it allows the covering of different playstyles and a good example to take is our current middle, Ilyana (4.98) who has scores varying from 2 to 8, making ~5 a good average to express her contributions to an average team. This is just a list of numbers next to names, and I find that the contribution it does to the general readership of this forum is for new players to look at the reviews, find people who share their playing styles/ways of rating and take their reviews/votes into consideration when picking characters. If that is not what these 'rate the units' are meant for, someone please enlighten me. If these are just popularity contests, then there would be no reason to limit biases to +/- 1 or try and make them as objective as possible.

If you have a problem with my vote, make your own as low as you want to counter the score I gave him, and provide your reasoning to maintain the rules. Anyway, my vote for Ulki will not alter the final score much as he will get a number between 2~3 from this. Heh, I didn't notice I wrote so much to defend something, but I was previewing the FE:A OST, so it felt like a worthwhile breeze at the time.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Ulki, Tibarn's ears and stuff.

Pros:

Vigilance helps him dodge things. (a little)

Flies.

Cons:

Redundant at this point.

Doesnt transform early on.

Meh base speed.

I really never used Ulki in this game. His speed is kinda poop for his class and base level. Like, hes probably not doubling anything. That sucks. His innate skill helps him with the dodging but not by much. He cant transform right away so hes not murdering at the get-go. Oh well. I just dont have much to say about him. Im pretty neutral but i know Janaff is actually slightly better.

4/10. 5/10 bias because i always LOVED his character design. I really dont know why but i think he looks cool.

[Lord Raven]

you missed one thing: devdan has 1-2 range available and can access his stats for 100% of the map

Ulki doesnt quote have this luxury

[bottlegnomes]

you missed one thing: devdan has 1-2 range available and can access his stats for 100% of the map

Ulki doesnt quote have this luxury

He addressed the second part by saying that's with the demi band.

[Lord Raven]

w/ demi band its 22 spd even with a spd increasing band

lest we forget ulki's average attack is around 32 at level 20

while we further forget the fact that ulki sucks and will never reach level 20 on a normal playthrough, so 20/20 comparisons are still flawed

[bottlegnomes]

w/ demi band its 22 spd even with a spd increasing band

lest we forget ulki's average attack is around 32 at level 20

while we further forget the fact that ulki sucks and will never reach level 20 on a normal playthrough, so 20/20 comparisons are still flawed

Oh gee, you're criticizing how someone rates a unit because you disagree with it. Now why does that sound familiar?

[dondon151]

Oh gee, you're criticizing how someone rates a unit because you disagree with it. Now why does that sound familiar?

sorry but according to that guy's criteria it's virtually impossible for anyone to earn less than a 6/10 in this game

[bottlegnomes]

sorry but according to that guy's criteria it's virtually impossible for anyone to earn less than a 6/10 in this game

I'm not disagreeing with it, but Raven was getting on our case because we did the same thing when he gave Tormod a higher score than Makalov and Muarim, and the same score as Kieran. Then when we said it, he defended it with "I have my method of rating people, get off my case." I'm not saying I agree that Ulki should be a 6, without bias, but especially Raven has no room to criticize the score someone gives.

Edited May 6, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Snowy_One]

Ulki is a Laguz, has to deal with the transform gauge, has poor stats even then, has a weak weapon, joins late, and his supporters either have much better options, or are poor units in general.

1/10.

[PKL]

I think silent mercenary's vote shouldnt count. Terrible criteria...

[Shadow Mir]

I think silent mercenary's vote shouldnt count. Terrible criteria...

Indeed.

[bottlegnomes]

ZM counted Raven's 8/10 for Tormod, and that wasn't even with a point of bias. IMO this is a lot less ridiculous, and he justified it. So either ZM should accept it, or retroactively toss Raven's Tormod score.

[Silent Mercenary]

sorry but according to that guy's criteria it's virtually impossible for anyone to earn less than a 6/10 in this game

It is possible and the unit that would get something close to a 1.5 under the criteria I made for my scores is Rolf, mostly due to his low bases and lack of melee range as well as minor deductions for affinity/no-skill/defenses/etc. I never got to rate him.

you missed one thing: devdan has 1-2 range available and can access his stats for 100% of the map

Ulki doesnt quote have this luxury

You value Devdan more for his 1-2 range, access to a forges and Silver, Knight Ward access to catch up, Fire support, among other things, I value Ulki more for his access to flying, +1 move when transformed, ability to shove/smite 2 of the pegasus riders, all unmounted units and the non-tiger untransformed laguz (as well as carry those unmounted beorcs to places), a water affinity that can help the ATK/DEF of himself and others over ATK/HIT, considerably higher HP/defense/avoid/dodge for more durability, among other things. It's a matter of playing style, some like just raw power, others like to do other things with their turns like smiting or carrying someone to a position where they can do a certain task to meet a certain goal. Also, the not getting to /20 is subjective and depends on how much attention you give to either of the two promoted units.

I don't mind you giving Ulki a low score because you play differently than me, in fact, I like that you do, because you are representing a playstyle that is different than mine, and when you combine your score with mine and everyone elses we get scores that encompass a variety of gamer opinions. If someday, there was magically* a general agreement over how much worth is given to each aspect of an unit, there would be no need for "rate the unit" threads, because there would only be one score per unit and a post detailing all of them. We don't have this objective and global criteria, so we take an average of the scores of different people who play differently. The average takes care of what the majority thinks.

*Even if we somehow think of a way to objectively rate an unit, there will always be detractors, so a general agreement over something like gameplay is utopic.

I will leave up to ZM456 or whoever will count the scores to decide if they will discard mine or not, and they can discard it without telling if they so wanted, I really don't mind. But I will leave my rating post as is for any new player who's looking at this list that shares my playing style and value system, and wants to decide if they should use this unit or not. You will have to deal with it staying there unless you get someone with moderator access to edit or delete it for you.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Silent Mercenary

[ZemZem]

Raven justified his 8/10 for Tormod, and SIlent Merc. justified his vote for Ulki, despite it having some bad points. I see no reason to drop either of them, as ridiculous as they are. Though, I'd like it if Silent Merc. gave better criteria for that 7/10 for Ulki.

[ZemZem]

Time to tally.

[Lord Raven]

You value Devdan more for his 1-2 range, access to a forges and Silver, Knight Ward access to catch up, Fire support, among other things, I value Ulki more for his access to flying, +1 move when transformed, ability to shove/smite 2 of the pegasus riders, all unmounted units and the non-tiger untransformed laguz (as well as carry those unmounted beorcs to places), a water affinity that can help the ATK/DEF of himself and others over ATK/HIT, considerably higher HP/defense/avoid/dodge for more durability, among other things. It's a matter of playing style, some like just raw power, others like to do other things with their turns like smiting or carrying someone to a position where they can do a certain task to meet a certain goal. Also, the not getting to /20 is subjective and depends on how much attention you give to either of the two promoted units.

No one gets to /20 unless they are being used a lot, which is not happening to either unit in this scenario.

I'm not sure why you are valuing his water affinity when he has almost no support partners that can keep up with him. Boyd has others, rhys is definitely not going to be around him after a turn, and Mordecai has to compete for the demi band all the same

and of course devdan sounds worse when you put it like that, because you've spent all of a line talking about him, whereas you've spent like 5 talking about ulki

and ulki sucks at carrying people, because he can't canto very easily. ulki has 10 more HP in exchange for vastly inferior offense and bow weakness, and devdans got better resistance anyway

and devdan still has access to his full potential the entire map, whereas ulki requires a stat cut if he really wants to outshine devdan

protip ulki and devdan are about even, anyway, cause they're both shit and devdan probably edges him out a little bit. of course, i'm not asking for your vote to be thrown out, just so that you realize that what you are saying is wrong

[aku chi]

I value Ulki more for his [...] ability to shove/smite 2 of the pegasus riders, all unmounted units and the non-tiger untransformed laguz

That's not right. Ulki has 18 Wt when transformed. This is not enough to shove any mounted units or untransformed beast laguz. It's also insufficient to rescue the heaviest beorc (Brom, Gatrie, and Largo).