Anouleth Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 I was just thinking give her absurd stats, like capped str/def and near maxed everything else but health. And have her come with some solid equipment, like a silver sword and a brave sword, in addition to the wo dao. With what Furet has so far, she's gone from why bother, she's fucking useless and a bitch to get, to why bother, she's nothing special and takes a lot of effort to get, though with Bartre's new improvements, it's a lot more likely people will be getting her. It's definitely better, but just doesn't seem like enough, especially since she's an easter-egg-esqe character and they're generally supposed to be fairly decent. According to who? The voices in your head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) I was just thinking give her absurd stats, like capped str/def and near maxed everything else but health. And have her come with some solid equipment, like a silver sword and a brave sword, in addition to the wo dao. With what Furet has so far, she's gone from why bother, she's fucking useless and a bitch to get, to why bother, she's nothing special and takes a lot of effort to get, though with Bartre's new improvements, it's a lot more likely people will be getting her. It's definitely better, but just doesn't seem like enough, especially since she's an easter-egg-esqe character and they're generally supposed to be fairly decent. If you did that she'd be even harder to get. She'd almost certainly kill Bartre unless he was alot higher levelled than the minimum required even with the Iron Rune on him. On Renault giving him S-rank light alone would probably be good enough(Maybe buff his Skill to the cap so his crit is even higher). Aureola probably should stay on Athos because If I remember correctly storyline-wise Athos mentions he has it specifically to combat Nergal. Edited May 21, 2012 by arvilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 I dunno about Renault, but what you do to Karla (IMO) should be dictated (in some part) by what you do to Karel. Either my memory has failed me, or somewhere in their supports it's shown that Karel is the superior combatant of the two. Then again, who cares, it's Karla. I concur with this on the grounds of MAKE KARLA AN EST. This plan CANNOT fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) According to who? The voices in your head? Your mother /bad comebacks. Also, it's according to whom. But really, are you seriously going to say characters you go through that much trouble to get should be that terrible? As for Renault, like dondon said, he's probably fine as is. But I wouldn't be opposed to the S in light. I was just curious what your plans for him were since I didn't see him anywhere in the OP. To survive a max str Karla, Bartre would need 10 def and 41 health, figuring she had a wo dao equipped. He can do that around 12/1. So he wouldn't need much more, if any, training. @Integ - Best. Idea. Ever. Edit: changed some words because having a word twice in a sentence bothers me a lot more than it should. Edited May 21, 2012 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk King Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 As far as Karla goes, she already got +5 HP +4 STR +3 SKL +3 SPD +10 LUC +4 DEF +3 RES. Just make her growths all 10-15% better and that should be more than enough. Maybe give her that 1-2 range sword from the Mario Cart DD bonus disc? Wind Sword I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) Give Renault Moulder's promoted CON Edited May 21, 2012 by Psycho Silver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Give Renault Moulder's CON Renault already does have Moulder's base 9 con, but giving him the 11 that moulder gets upon promotion might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Renault already does have Moulder's base 9 con, but giving him the 11 that moulder gets upon promotion might help. This is what I meant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Your mother /bad comebacks. Also, it's according to whom. But really, are you seriously going to say characters you go through that much trouble to get should be that terrible? Characters have to be pretty fucking amazing to be "worth" any amount of trouble. Short of making Bartre into Marcus 2.0 Karla will not be "worth" getting. I don't really care how good she is. She could be as amazing as Stefan or as horrible as Cath. But there isn't a "correct" way to balance her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Well, now that Marcus has been nerfed pretty hard, that's not saying much Anyway, all characters should have some redeeming quality, beyond novelty, in a balance patch. That said, with what Furet's looking to do, she's probably as "balanced" as she's going to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klokinator Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 That said, with what Furet's looking to do, she's probably as "balanced" as she's going to get. He. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Pretty sure he's referring to Karla, not Furet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) What Horace said. Adding onto what I said to Ano earlier, how would making Bartre amazing make Karla more worth getting? She'd be the same as otherwise. It'd be more convenient to get her, but it wouldn't improve her worth at all. On a side note, if by some crazy chance anyone's interested in hard patching this to a FE7 ROM and sending said ROM to me, it'd be much appreciated. I still haven't figured out how to patch on this stupid computer. Edited May 21, 2012 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyJoe1990 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) Oh hey, an FE7 balance patch. I don't know how experienced Furetchen is with balancing or anything for that matter, but it looks like he's being well received. I'll definitely give this a look when it's released. Now if only we could get that guy trying to balance FE6 to finish his project... *Dreams of having a usable Sophia* Edited May 21, 2012 by MarkyJoe1990 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 What Horace said. Adding onto what I said to Ano earlier, how would making Bartre amazing make Karla more worth getting? She'd be the same as otherwise. It'd be more convenient to get her, but it wouldn't improve her worth at all. Because it would reduce the cost. Chad is worth recruiting because the cost is zero. Cath is not worth recruiting because the cost is having Roy fuck around to talk to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 But it wouldn't make her any better. Chad can provide something of use. Cath can't because there are two superior thieves, not because her recruitment is a bitch. If it were easier, she'd still be just as useless, but it would be less inconvenient. Same for Bartre. It goes from being actively painful to get her to "why should I bother?" Either way, she's terrible and not "worth" recruiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 But it wouldn't make her any better. Chad can provide something of use. Cath can't because there are two superior thieves, not because her recruitment is a bitch. If it were easier, she'd still be just as useless, but it would be less inconvenient. Same for Bartre. It goes from being actively painful to get her to "why should I bother?" Either way, she's terrible and not "worth" recruiting. Except that being worth recruiting is a cost-benefit scenario. The cost of recruiting Stefan is greater than the benefit he provides. The cost of recruiting Marcia is smaller than the benefit she provides. If Stefan's recruitment location was closer to the start point he would be worth recruiting. But is isn't, so he isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) It's like this, say I'll give you a foam peanut, but you have to let me kick you in the balls. That's Karla's current recruitment. Now with improved Bartre, it's like me saying you get the same peanut, but instead of me kicking you in the balls, you just have to pick it up off the ground. The peanut still isn't worth any more. It's just less of a hassle to get. According to your argument, Karla could still be the worst unit ever, but if Bartre was amazing, she'd be worth recruiting, which isn't true. Now if she had any redeeming factors, then it would be a question of how difficult she is to recruit. Point is, being easy to recruit doesn't make a unit worth anything. Look at Wil and Rebecca. Stupidly easy to recruit. You literally can't fuck it up, but they're still useless. Back on topic, this is really just a question. Why raise Karel's speed and health? My impression was that his problem wasn't doubling, or even survival, but having pretty mediocre offense. Also, I'd say give a random hero the brave sword and maybe make him spawn with the reinforcements the same turn Karel/Harken shows up. Giving it to Jerme could be bad what with him having at least two chances to proc a silencer, granted his skill is pretty low. Also, that way you could have it be available on both versions of the map, if you want it to be. Edited May 21, 2012 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 It's like this, say I'll give you a foam peanut, but you have to let me kick you in the balls. That's Karla's current recruitment. Now with improved Bartre, it's like me saying you get the same peanut, but instead of me kicking you in the balls, you just have to pick it up off the ground. The peanut still isn't worth any more. It's just less of a hassle to get. And there's a distinction between something being worth getting and something being significantly useful. 10 EXP on Matthew isn't really useful in any significant way but it's still worth getting. According to your argument, Karla could still be the worst unit ever, but if Bartre was amazing, she'd be worth recruiting, which isn't true. Actually, my argument is that unless Bartre is a very good unit, Karla will not be worth getting. If Bartre is a very good unit, Karla will be worth getting because the cost is essentially nil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 It's like this, say I'll give you a foam peanut, but you have to let me kick you in the balls. hold on here there is no way that my adorable anouleth has balls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 But there's also a difference between "worth recruiting" and "worth using". I mean, if Bartre is like omfgamazing, sure, you'll probably recruit Karla just for the hell of it, because there's no real reason not to. But if Karla still sucks, then she's still not getting used either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) The problem with your analogy is that 10 exp adds up. 10 exp on it's own would be pointless to get, and would be no better gotten than ignored altogether. Karla's the latter, no matter how easy she is to get. But there's also a difference between "worth recruiting" and "worth using". I mean, if Bartre is like omfgamazing, sure, you'll probably recruit Karla just for the hell of it, because there's no real reason not to. But if Karla still sucks, then she's still not getting used either way. Thank you, BBM. I think this is where we're disagreeing. To me, for her to be "worth" getting, she needs to actually be worth using, at least a tiny bit. So no matter how good Bartre is, if Karla remains the same, she's not worth getting, since she's not worth using, beyond novelty. And again, this is a balance patch, so all the characters should be at least somewhat worth using. Edited May 21, 2012 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 But Karla ISN'T remaining the same. She got a very significant buff, and that speed is far more valuable with the buffed enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) But Karla ISN'T remaining the same. She got a very significant buff, and that speed is far more valuable with the buffed enemies. Yeah, sorry about that. Had nothing to do with your patch, just what Ano had said about how good Karla is not mattering/Bartre being amazing making her worth recruiting. As for the speed thing, makes sense. Forgot the enemies were getting buffed. Edited May 22, 2012 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 Okay, so, for sake of argument, if I left all Renault's stats the same except for 11 Con, S-rank Light and gave him Aureola instead of having Athos have it, what would happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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