'Honour' Killings

[CrashGordon94]

...I'm sorry, I fail to see how that excuses murdering people for being raped!

[1st Mate Bob]

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My real issue is not with the fact that atrocities happen but rather that the world then turns around and blames Israel for infringing on human rights. We are a country with legitimately more freedoms than the world's self-proclaimed "free nation" (I'm looking at you, USA, and your illegalization of gay marriage). We are surrounded by countries which deny women basic human rights, all in the name of Mohammed the Prophet.

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What I'm trying to get at is that if nothing is going to be done about honour killings (which nothing should be done because this stuff will continue), then stop lambasting Israel as being the nation that denies freedoms.

Hey man, we're doing what I can to get DOMA overturned. And you know what? It's working. I'm not sure how your culture or government works, but over here if we fight against something that we feel isn't right, we usually come out on top.

And just because your country may have "more freedoms" doesn't mean that the bad things that happen there are justified.

[MacLovin]

...I'm sorry, I fail to see how that excuses murdering people for being raped!

That is the way they do things there.

Honor is a very important thing in the ME, and in Asia.

Often in some rural Asain (Non-ME) places, the only way to regain honor is through killing the one that sullied ones honor, or to commit suicide.

Look, I think it's a bit atrocious, but should we really go and mess with entire countries, and get them to conform to our beliefs?

[eclipse]

That is the way they do things there.

Honor is a very important thing in the ME, and in Asia.

Often in some rural Asain (Non-ME) places, the only way to regain honor is through killing the one that sullied ones honor, or to commit suicide.

Look, I think it's a bit atrocious, but should we really go and mess with entire countries, and get them to conform to our beliefs?

When it comes to human rights violations, cultural sensitivity can kiss my ass. What honor is regained in killing a rape victim?

[CrashGordon94]

When it comes to human rights violations, cultural sensitivity can kiss my ass. What honor is regained in killing a rape victim?

Sorry to not add much, but THIS!

And I think pretty everyone is saying this very thing here.

[Parrhesia]

That is the way they do things there.

Honor is a very important thing in the ME, and in Asia.

Often in some rural Asain (Non-ME) places, the only way to regain honor is through killing the one that sullied ones honor, or to commit suicide.

I wouldn't honestly care if there was a killing spree of vengeful fathers killing the men that raped their daughters. The issue is that they're killing the VICTIMS here. POLITICAL CORRECTNESS CEASES TO BE A FACTOR WHEN RAPE VICTIMS ARE BEING EXECUTED BY THEIR OWN FAMILIES, WHO SUBSEQUENTLY GET AWAY WITH IT.

[Baldrick]

When it comes to human rights violations, cultural sensitivity can kiss my ass. What honor is regained in killing a rape victim?

Well, obviously it's a horrible situation, but I only see three ways Western society can prevent it;

1) Try to convince them their values are outdated, through discussion, debate etc.

2) Invade them, make their country a vassal of the US or whoever, and pass laws forbidding "honour killings".

3) Relocate all the women to Western countries.

Unless you can either organise number 1 and make it effective, phrase number 2 in such a way that it's not a horrible plan, finance number 3 and placate the people who may not like being kidnapped and forced form their families, or come up with a feasible fourth solution, I'm afraid you're going to have to live and let live. I don't like it either, but what can you do?

EDIT: This applies to Furetchen as well. We've got a society full of repressed women to save! What's the plan, boss?

Edited June 20, 2012 by Baldrick

[CrashGordon94]

There's the thing, it didn't sound like Sharpy was saying "It sucks but there's little we can do", it came across as "It's okay because that's their culture!" or somesuch.

[Baldrick]

There's the thing, it didn't sound like Sharpy was saying "It sucks but there's little we can do", it came across as "It's okay because that's their culture!" or somesuch.

That's fair, his first post does give the latter impression.

But I think Sharpoon believes the former, because his second post says;

Look, I think it's a bit atrocious, but should we really go and mess with entire countries, and get them to conform to our beliefs?

[eclipse]

Well, obviously it's a horrible situation, but I only see three ways Western society can prevent it;

1) Try to convince them their values are outdated, through discussion, debate etc.

2) Invade them, make their country a vassal of the US or whoever, and pass laws forbidding "honour killings".

3) Relocate all the women to Western countries.

Unless you can either organise number 1 and make it effective, phrase number 2 in such a way that it's not a horrible plan, finance number 3 and placate the people who may not like being kidnapped and forced form their families, or come up with a feasible fourth solution, I'm afraid you're going to have to live and let live. I don't like it either, but what can you do?

EDIT: This applies to Furetchen as well. We've got a society full of repressed women to save! What's the plan, boss?

I guess they'd need to form some overarching group that doesn't approve of things, and can apply meaningful sanctions if a country is actively harming its citizens. . .hmm, wonder if such a thing exists. . .

[Baldrick]

I guess they'd need to form some overarching group that doesn't approve of things, and can apply meaningful sanctions if a country is actively harming its citizens. . .hmm, wonder if such a thing exists. . .

I'm not sure either. If I had to guess, though, I'd say there is, since all forms of discrimination and hate crime have been completely eliminated except for killing of victims of rape.

[MacLovin]

Thing is.

You're trying to change an entire culture and way of doing things.

It'd be nice to try, in an ideal world, but this isn't an ideal world.

I may not be correct, but I read that for thousands of years, this was the norm-

Men went out and gathered/hunted food.

Women took care of the children, and did domestic work.

It does suck, from the view of western culture, but there's little that those of western culture can do.

I mean, we're trying to forcebly change an entire culture, and entire system of beliefs, for western ideals.

Utopia isn't going to work, due to human nature.

[Life]

Hey man, we're doing what I can to get DOMA overturned. And you know what? It's working. I'm not sure how your culture or government works, but over here if we fight against something that we feel isn't right, we usually come out on top.

And just because your country may have "more freedoms" doesn't mean that the bad things that happen there are justified.

I didn't know anyone could miss the point that badly.

In the past three days (18/06/2012 -> 20/06/2012), over 50 rockets have been fired at Israel from Gaza, an area that is "victimized" in the media. Gaza is one of those areas that infringes on human rights in the name of religion. But Israel is the country that is condemned for wanting to keep its civilians safe.

The point that I was trying to make was that the rest of the world does not understand the Middle East and WILL not understand the Middle East and should stop attempting to. But all you saw was "human rights" and "gay marriage" and went off on a tangent. Next time, read the argument properly before replying.

EDIT: The bold is to everyone else. I am in complete agreement with Baldrick and I think my opinion holds weight because I actually live in the Middle East and you do not. Just let it be. This shit will continue, no matter how much you disapprove of it.

"OH MY GOD, THEY'RE KILLING THE VICTIM! WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING!"

Well smart guy, let me hear your plan. Let me hear what YOU individually are going to do. Bear in mind that you're attempting to fight against a religious view and will lose about 99% of the time.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Life Admiral

[Raven]

It may be their culture to commit such atrocities on their own turf, but when they bring their culture over to the United Kingdom (or anywhere else in the world where an honour crime is not acceptable) and still think they are in the right after killing someone, that is a problem. To think they are above the law is outrageous. And the UK still knows little to nothing regarding potential victims of honour crime. Incompetence in our police forces on the rather alien matter at hand means that less cases go detected than usual. My friend conducted his final year research into honour killings and the police of England and Wales, I'll have to ask him for a copy of his work so I can read it up.

Saying "ban honour killings" is pointless since it is basically "murder", and laws already exist against that, I'm sure.

The problem is, they believe that it is justified. We can probably try to 'educate' these people as much as we like, but they will not stray far, if at all, from their beliefs and traditions. It is really a lost cause. All we can hope for to stop this kind of killing is that the morals and ethics of democratic countries eventually rub off on them, and for the people who follow their age-old traditions without question die out, and that their governments and law enforcers get the balls to treat murderers exactly the same, regardless of whether it was for 'honour' or not. Oh, and no to mention treating women the same as men. That's a pretty big one right there. But sadly I don't think that will happen any time soon.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Raven

[Life]

It depends on the law system there. If the law will prosecute, I hope they do. If not, shame. But nothing can be done in those cases.

Don't confuse my point. I have not once condoned honour killings. I am more than 100% against them. But there is nothing that can be done in countries where it is acceptable.

[1st Mate Bob]

I didn't know anyone could miss the point that badly.

In the past three days (18/06/2012 -> 20/06/2012), over 50 rockets have been fired at Israel from Gaza, an area that is "victimized" in the media. Gaza is one of those areas that infringes on human rights in the name of religion. But Israel is the country that is condemned for wanting to keep its civilians safe.

The point that I was trying to make was that the rest of the world does not understand the Middle East and WILL not understand the Middle East and should stop attempting to. But all you saw was "human rights" and "gay marriage" and went off on a tangent. Next time, read the argument properly before replying.

EDIT: The bold is to everyone else. I am in complete agreement with Baldrick and I think my opinion holds weight because I actually live in the Middle East and you do not. Just let it be. This shit will continue, no matter how much you disapprove of it.

"OH MY GOD, THEY'RE KILLING THE VICTIM! WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING!"

Well smart guy, let me hear your plan. Let me hear what YOU individually are going to do. Bear in mind that you're attempting to fight against a religious view and will lose about 99% of the time.

Your point was that you're tired of people from other countries shitting blame and calling your country inhumane when there are other countries doing the same or even worse things, and you would like for everyone to fuck off and leave you alone because it's rooted in your culture which you feel outsiders are incapable of understanding, right? Yeah, I got it. I was still on the topic of honor killings in general. Sorry I wasn't on the same page as you.

I can see how the last part of my post could have been taken as an attack toward you, which wasn't the intent. That statement applies to everyone, including my own country.

The stuff happening with Gaza? Yeah, it sucks. It sucks that the media is condemning Israel. It sucks that your country is a punching bag for blame. I'm just saying that if there are shitty things happening in your country, and the people living there don't like it, why don't they do anything about it? I ask because I don't know what you can do, and I don't know what I can do. I don't even know if the people WANT to change it, I was just trying to make a statement about a "what if" scenario.

Do I think what's happening is wrong? Yes. Do I think it should be changed? Yes. Do I know how to change it? No, and there's nothing I can do. I don't have a plan. I'm not proposing a plan. If the people living there really think they're "atrocities" like you said, then they're the ones who have to do something about it.

I feel all forms of murder or wrong. I don't care where or why it's done. It's not in my power to change things, but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it.

Did I miss anything?

[Nightmare]

I don't want to insult Nightmare (a very good friend of mine) but I need to get this off of my chest.

[etc.]

I'm not really offended. This is one of the sad truths I'm conscious of. It's yet another example of worn-out and barbaric traditions surviving from the age of ignorance. It is a thing of great sorrow, indeed.

[eclipse]

I'm not sure either. If I had to guess, though, I'd say there is, since all forms of discrimination and hate crime have been completely eliminated except for killing of victims of rape.

I guess we're both being sarcastic.

Thing is.

You're trying to change an entire culture and way of doing things.

It'd be nice to try, in an ideal world, but this isn't an ideal world.

I may not be correct, but I read that for thousands of years, this was the norm-

Men went out and gathered/hunted food.

Women took care of the children, and did domestic work.

It does suck, from the view of western culture, but there's little that those of western culture can do.

I mean, we're trying to forcebly change an entire culture, and entire system of beliefs, for western ideals.

Utopia isn't going to work, due to human nature.

Things don't look like they'll change at this very moment. Go 100 years back in American history, and women couldn't vote. Go 150 years back, and slavery existed. The first step is awareness. I don't know what other things it'll take for honor killings to be seen as a blemish in human history, but I'll be damned if I just sit back and go "oh well, that's too deeply ingrained in their culture for me to say anything about it." I'm obviously not changing cultures with my personal views, but I'm not gonna accept it just because I can't do anything about it.

[MacLovin]

I guess we're both being sarcastic.

Things don't look like they'll change at this very moment. Go 100 years back in American history, and women couldn't vote. Go 150 years back, and slavery existed. The first step is awareness. I don't know what other things it'll take for honor killings to be seen as a blemish in human history, but I'll be damned if I just sit back and go "oh well, that's too deeply ingrained in their culture for me to say anything about it." I'm obviously not changing cultures with my personal views, but I'm not gonna accept it just because I can't do anything about it.

I thought you were talking on a big scale.

And, yeah, the ME for the most part has people living like, err, anachronistic compared to the rest of the world.

(Sorry Nightmare, no offense man.)

And, IDK if that was the right choice of words.

Personal views are nice and all, but it may take a long time for ME culture to completely change.

[Baldrick]

Life Admiral put my point more eloquently than I could, except for one thing. I don't think it's impossible for us to get along. Given the state of the world, it will possibly never happen; but if we could mingle on an individual level, we could come to understand, if not sympathise with each other. Much of the problem comes from our tendency to dehumanise people we don't know. We don't think of them as fellow humans with their own hopes, dreams and ideals, just as caricatures.

But we can't go in with the agenda of changing the other man's viewpoint by force; that would only push them away. It might mean that their ways will not change, but it's our most realistic chance of preventing honour killings without infringing on the human rights of the perpretrators.

[Espinosa]

What can I say, in the East they value other things more than human rights... even such an elementary one as the right to exist. And since existence is so unbearable most of the time, it kinda makes sense to me.

[MacLovin]

Here in the Phillipines, making another lose his/her Honor, is dangerous in the Rural Areas.

So, it's still exists all over the place in the East.

And, yes, changing views through force is not the answer, your best hope to sort of merge cultures together, and hope to treat those sort of actions as barbaric.

[Life]

I'm not really offended. This is one of the sad truths I'm conscious of. It's yet another example of worn-out and barbaric traditions surviving from the age of ignorance. It is a thing of great sorrow, indeed.

Perfect. Now move to Israel.

Seriously though, everything that can be said on the matter has been said.

[Westbrick]

I know I'm jumping into the middle of things here, but what I personally find important in this issue is that it's a referendum on "cultural relativism." It's all fine and dandy to say that people have a right to their own idiosyncratic beliefs and moral practices... but then girls start getting killed for being rape victims, and suddenly those idealistic ambitions seem rather misguided. A line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I have no problem with openly condemning cultures that treat women this way.

Well, obviously it's a horrible situation, but I only see three ways Western society can prevent it;

1) Try to convince them their values are outdated, through discussion, debate etc.

2) Invade them, make their country a vassal of the US or whoever, and pass laws forbidding "honour killings".

3) Relocate all the women to Western countries.

Unless you can either organise number 1 and make it effective, phrase number 2 in such a way that it's not a horrible plan, finance number 3 and placate the people who may not like being kidnapped and forced form their families, or come up with a feasible fourth solution, I'm afraid you're going to have to live and let live. I don't like it either, but what can you do?

EDIT: This applies to Furetchen as well. We've got a society full of repressed women to save! What's the plan, boss?

There are other venues to consider as well.

4) Openly condemn such practices and make clear that Western secularism stands on the opposite end of the spectrum.

5) Put diplomatic pressures on countries where such practices are tolerated; economic sanctions, trade restrictions, withdrawal of foreign aid, etc.

6) When such killings occur on Western soil, make sure to come down swiftly and mercilessly; spread cultural awareness about the issue, provide safehavens for victims of rape in Muslim or otherwise high-risk families, etc.; maybe even spread such awareness into public schooling.

Unfortunately, the problem can't be solved overnight, but major strides can be made within Western nations, and small (but important) steps can be taken diplomatically.

What can I say, in the East they value other things more than human rights... even such an elementary one as the right to exist. And since existence is so unbearable most of the time, it kinda makes sense to me.

To be clear: do you mean existence in the Middle East specifically, or existence generally?

Edited June 23, 2012 by Westbrick

[Life]

There are other venues to consider as well.

The real question is how effective they will be.

4) Openly condemn such practices and make clear that Western secularism stands on the opposite end of the spectrum.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

No seriously. This is part of your master plan? The Middle East is in the middle of the barbarian times again (Israel notwithstanding). Why do you think that countries like Syria (mind you, a country that is currently... "putting down a rebel uprising") and Iran will actually care about what the West thinks? Remember, the general view is the West are infidels.

5) Put diplomatic pressures on countries where such practices are tolerated; economic sanctions, trade restrictions, withdrawal of foreign aid, etc.

Currently happening with regards to Iran and their nuclear program. Which Iran doesn't really give a fuck about because they just want a WMD so that they can bomb Israel (publicly stated by both Ahmadinejad and the Ayatolla). The only thing that slows down the actual progress of the program is the weird car bombings to all of the scientists working on the project. Hmm...

But do you honestly think that sanctions will ever be put on countries in the Middle East for being inhumane? Forget idealism, let's look at reality. It's Israel that is inhumane in the world's eyes, not Iran or Syria or Lebanon.

6) When such killings occur on Western soil, make sure to come down swiftly and mercilessly; spread cultural awareness about the issue, provide safehavens for victims of rape in Muslim or otherwise high-risk families, etc.; maybe even spread such awareness into public schooling.

Already happens in North America (can't say the same about Europe because I don't know for a fact) with the Shafia case being the public example. But it doesn't solve anything.

Cultural awareness in North America is essentially "post on FB for a day about something, pay $5 for a bracelet or shirt or something so that the money goes to an organization (that does what exactly?) and then forget about it until someone else brings it up". Shows how shallow society has really because but those were the cards that we were dealt.

Unfortunately, the problem can't be solved overnight, but major strides can be made within Western nations, and small (but important) steps can be taken diplomatically.

Uh... no. None of your solutions are good. Your intentions are sweet and wonderful but the practicality is shit. The Middle East is ruled by a corrupt spawn of a religion and doesn't give a shit about what the Western world thinks.

Come back down to earth, matey.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Life Admiral