'Honour' Killings

[Westbrick]

I've got a solution for you, Life Admiral: how about you tone down the condescension a little? I'd love to have a civil discussion here, but my biggest pet peeve in life is unwarranted arrogance. Politics is a passion of mine, and I plan to go into law having taken several classes on foreign affairs and diplomacy; while I'm hardly an expert by any stretch, I'm well-read and reasonable, and willing to change my mind if compelling evidence is put before me. What you need to do is back off a bit, apologize, and then we can continue.

[dondon151]

how about you tone down the condescension a little?

Politics is a passion of mine,

i'm sorry, this doesn't compute. politics thrives off condescension.

[Westbrick]

i'm sorry, this doesn't compute. politics thrives off condescension.

Bad politics, at any rate. The stuff you find on soundbite-driven political radio and partisan television. Good politicking is always a little arrogant, but backed up by facts and well-reasoned arguments, not immature HAHAHAHAHAs and YOU'VE NEVER BEEN THERE MANs. I'm thinking the Economist and the like.

[MacLovin]

I'm getting really tired of the Wests way of.

"We don't like this aspect of your culture, so we're going to change it" view.

Look folks, honor is a very important aspect in the Easter Part of the World.

What are you going to do about it?

You want to do what YOU think is right, and change THEIR culture.

THEY think it's the right thing to do, and view us as "infidels"

Who are WE to judge another culture.

Geez.

Get a grip folks, I got sick of old ladies trying to get me to donate all my savings to these groups that may or may not have assisted in the development of the 2nd-3rd world countries, but this is just pure idiocy.

Look, from the view of many cultures, Murder is wrong, but to those of the ME culture, it's not murder.

****ing internationalists

Culture is what defines people.

It's their system of beliefs, religon, etc.

You're going to try and convince, like 30 million people living in a sort of Anachronistic Culture based on being a Warrior- to go sing Kum-Bay-Yah and have tea parties and attend Book Clubs?

Sigh, I don't mean any offense to the folks of the ME, but I agree with everything Life has to say.

The West needs to have more Cultural Awareness and to stop trying to force their ideals around other cultures.

[CrashGordon94]

Culture is not the issue here, these are atrocities and human rights violations, not to mention it's completed ass-ended to anyone with reasoanble morals.

Basically no amount of "culture" can excuse KILLING RAPE VICTIMS FOR HAVING THE SHEER AUDACITY TO BE RAPED! Everyone's already said this, I can honestly not understand why it continues to fly over you head.

[eclipse]

Please tell me in what way, shape, and form "well cultural relativism, so let's kill women who have been raped" is sensible. There's a difference between respecting culture and respecting human rights; once your culture violates basic human rights, you no longer have cultural relativism to hide behind.

[Sunwoo]

Harpoon, just about two months ago, you were PART of the "West."

Also, up until approximately 150 years ago, slavery was part of the "U.S. culture". I'm pretty sure we all agree that slavery is morally deplorable, right?

My point is, culture is a powerful thing indeed, but everything changes. Culture is not a "static" thing. Not too long ago, it was "culture" to see women and minorities as "second-class citizens." But the culture changed because we were forced to have it change.

Is anything so sacred that it should never, ever change? Everything is going to change. Culture. The "norms." It all changes.

And I get that honor is important in the "Eastern part of the world", but is honor really that important so that it justifies killing someone who did nothing wrong but be victimized? You ask us to see it in "your way", but are you seeing it from "the Western point of view"?

What if it was your sister, or cousin, or (future) daughter? Would you be able to kill her in the name of "honor"? Would you be able to stand back and watch it happen, knowing she did nothing wrong but be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[MacLovin]

Please tell me in what way, shape, and form "well cultural relativism, so let's kill women who have been raped" is sensible. There's a difference between respecting culture and respecting human rights; once your culture violates basic human rights, you no longer have cultural relativism to hide behind.

Human Rights, in whose view?

Harpoon, just about two months ago, you were PART of the "West."

Also, up until approximately 150 years ago, slavery was part of the "U.S. culture". I'm pretty sure we all agree that slavery is morally deplorable, right?

My point is, culture is a powerful thing indeed, but everything changes. Culture is not a "static" thing. Not too long ago, it was "culture" to see women and minorities as "second-class citizens." But the culture changed because we were forced to have it change.

Is anything so sacred that it should never, ever change? Everything is going to change. Culture. The "norms." It all changes.

And I get that honor is important in the "Eastern part of the world", but is honor really that important so that it justifies killing someone who did nothing wrong but be victimized? You ask us to see it in "your way", but are you seeing it from "the Western point of view"?

What if it was your sister, or cousin, or (future) daughter? Would you be able to kill her in the name of "honor"? Would you be able to stand back and watch it happen, knowing she did nothing wrong but be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Look at this from a detached way, and try to see what's important in those cultures, to the people in them.

Human rights, in the West are quite different from Human Rights in the ME.

And, sheesh, change isn't always for the best.

If I were raised under that sort of culture without any other influence, I would.

But think, if you were raised under that culture, without any other influences other than the values of said culture, what would you do?

Look, I'm trying to not show bias towards either side, but apparently it isn't working.

[eclipse]

Human Rights, in whose view?

Boron, you get the second half.

Obviously, not yours, since you are not female, and liable to be accused of being a rape victim BEFORE being killed off by your own family. I think I'm far more disturbed by your lack of empathy towards women than anything.

[MacLovin]

Boron, you get the second half.

Obviously, not yours, since you are not female, and liable to be accused of being a rape victim BEFORE being killed off by your own family. I think I'm far more disturbed by your lack of empathy towards women than anything.

Human Rights, from the view of a native of the M.E., vs. Human Rights from the view of someone raised under Western values/culture.

I'm only trying to look at the point of discussion with a detached view.

I do show empathy, but I don't know how to say some things very well, without getting an awkward feeling.

Also, I'm not trying to sound evil or anything, it's just that while I DO respect human rights, I don't understand the way you people want to solve this problem.

Want to go on IP chat or to the PM?

Edited June 24, 2012 by Sharpy

[eclipse]

I'm only trying to look at the point of discussion with a detached view.

I do show empathy, but I don't know how to say some things very well, without getting an awkward feeling.

Also, I'm not trying to sound evil or anything, it's just that while I DO respect human rights, I don't understand the way you people want to solve this problem.

Want to go on IP chat or to the PM?

No. This stays here. You have a lot to answer for with your views, and others deserve a chance to comment on them.

The very first step to solving this problem is to acknowledge that it IS a problem. Arguing for the tradition to continue in the name of cultural relativism is the wrong way of going about it. This kind of practice is reprehensible, and should be stopped. Whether or not it will stop is currently beyond my control; however, I will not validate the practice by defending it.

The first step to change is the desire to change.

[Sunwoo]

Look at this from a detached way, and try to see what's important in those cultures, to the people in them.

Human rights, in the West are quite different from Human Rights in the ME.

And, sheesh, change isn't always for the best.

If I were raised under that sort of culture without any other influence, I would.

But think, if you were raised under that culture, without any other influences other than the values of said culture, what would you do?

Look, I'm trying to not show bias towards either side, but apparently it isn't working.

Harpoon, I am looking at this from a detached way, and I think you may still be missing the point. "Human rights, in the West are quite different from Human Rights in the ME"? Why should "human rights" be different based on region or religion or culture? Doesn't the term "human rights" denote that all HUMAN BEINGS have that right? So, you're saying that either people in the "West" or the "ME" are not "human"? Because your statement makes no sense.

Change isn't always for the best, yes, but do you not see my point? Culture changes. Culture marches on. If the culture of the U.S. never changed, blacks would still be considered "second-class citizens." The LGBT crowd would have even LESS rights than they have now (and we have a LONG way to go). Asians would be viewed as the "yellow peril". And so on, and so forth. What I'm getting from your post is that apparently, the "Eastern culture" is so sacred that it shouldn't changed, period, but it's okay for Western culture to change all it wants. That, or you think that we shouldn't have made all the progresses we have in the "Western culture."

Also, considering how I don't follow "Western cultural norms" anyway, I'd certainly hope I'd know better than to follow something blindly. And that's the thing. Culture is a powerful thing, but remember -- these concepts are often outdated. Culture changes because people move towards equality. Historically oppressed groups rise up and cry, "Enough is enough," and the "dominant culture" is forced to realize that they must change.

What I'm getting for your post is that "everyone in the West needs to live the East and the ME alone, they don't understand!" What you don't seem to get, though, is that the people arguing with you feel that being murdered by people who you're supposed to trust and the people who are supposed to love you no matter what is deplorable. I'm reading the "honor killing" wiki page that Raven linked in the OP, and it's disturbing. There are women who get killed simply because they don't want to marry who their parents arrange for them to; because they are "westernized"; because they dress in ways that their parents do not disapprove. Basically, they're killed because they don't do what their relatives want them to do.

If you can't see it from my previous perspective, think of it this way. If Serenes Forest was a "culture", and if you were the "oddity who is dishonoring us all", do you think the rest of us should have the right to kill you to "restore our honor"?

I think eclipse is right. While it says in the article men are subject to "honor killings" as well, it seems to be "easier" for a woman to be the victim of an honor killing. I don't think you can understand unless you actually were a woman. You could turn around and argue that since I am not a man, I cannot see it from the opposing side either. But I do not believe that "honor" -- a tangible thing that in the end means very little and the standards of vary from person to person -- is more important than a human life. Life is precious. Once it's gone, it cannot be restored. You cannot say, "Whoops," and give it back.

You're right, I don't understand. And perhaps it's for the best. It's dangerous when people feel that it is "justified" to kill for reasons that are not self-defense or protecting a loved one.

[MacLovin]

No. This stays here. You have a lot to answer for with your views, and others deserve a chance to comment on them.

The very first step to solving this problem is to acknowledge that it IS a problem. Arguing for the tradition to continue in the name of cultural relativism is the wrong way of going about it. This kind of practice is reprehensible, and should be stopped. Whether or not it will stop is currently beyond my control; however, I will not validate the practice by defending it.

The first step to change is the desire to change.

I know that it IS a problem, however. do the majority of the Folks in the M.E. want to change this aspect of their culture?

I'm not articulating the point I'm trying to make very well, am I?

[eclipse]

I know that it IS a problem, however. do the majority of the Folks in the M.E. want to change this aspect of their culture?

I'm not articulating the point I'm trying to make very well, am I?

Not really. When phrased like this, it's easier to answer.

From the sample size on SF (read: two), it's not a popular opinion. I'm not sure how random people off the street feel about it. However, there's extreme sects of things no matter where you go. I'd be rather appalled if someone defined US religion solely based on scientology, for example.

[CrashGordon94]

Just because they don't want to change it doesn't mean they shouldn't change it.

[MacLovin]

Just because they don't want to change it doesn't mean they shouldn't change it.

Ah, but putting it that way, how do we get them to change it?

I think I kicked the hornets nest.

Not really. When phrased like this, it's easier to answer.

From the sample size on SF (read: two), it's not a popular opinion. I'm not sure how random people off the street feel about it. However, there's extreme sects of things no matter where you go. I'd be rather appalled if someone defined US religion solely based on scientology, for example.

Sigh.

Yes, I understand the point.

I do have a moral compass however, but I decided not to let it guide my replies on this topic.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Sharpy

[Sunwoo]

I'm not articulating the point I'm trying to make very well, am I?

You're really not. What I think people are trying to say is this: the ME's culture is what it is, fine. But honor killing are a special kind of murder. And it is still murder regardless of what it is called. Culture shouldn't be an excuse to people killing whomever they feel "dishonored" them. I can understand that you think it's arrogant for the West to come in and tell the "Eastern part of the world" that "your culture is wrong", but MURDER IS WRONG. END OF STORY. (And no, I don't consider self-defense to be murder.)

What I think the people in the ME need is to move towards male and female equality. Don't forget: not that long ago, women in the U.S. and much of the "Western world" were considered second-class citizens and had little rights. But we progressed towards giving women equal rights and so the gap isn't so huge in present day for the Western world. You acknowledge that we made many changes in "Western culture," right? My question is, why is the "Eastern culture" so special and sacred that they shouldn't have to change a damn thing and not admit that, yeah, "maybe some parts of our culture are a little flawed"?

[eclipse]

Sigh.

Yes, I understand the point.

I do have a moral compass however, but I decided not to let it guide my replies on this topic.

Don't always argue from an amoral view - you'll end up justifying some really strange things. Instead, find the reasons for/against each view, and come to your own conclusion.

[Espinosa]

To be clear: do you mean existence in the Middle East specifically, or existence generally?

I'm referring to the simple fact that every moment is pain.

Anyway, honour killing isn't a pagan sacrifice to a deity of some kind, it's not some sort of obsolete tradition that people do whether they like it or not. It's in their blood. It's not even a Muslim thing. Armenia and Georgia are both Christian countries (Eastern Christianity and Orthodoxy respectively), and vengeance and honour murder, while reproached by religious teachings, are not resisted and people are still tempted to carry them out.

Is it barbaric? Yes, it is, in the same way Hamlet's conflict was barbaric.

[MacLovin]

You're really not. What I think people are trying to say is this: the ME's culture is what it is, fine. But honor killing are a special kind of murder. And it is still murder regardless of what it is called. Culture shouldn't be an excuse to people killing whomever they feel "dishonored" them. I can understand that you think it's arrogant for the West to come in and tell the "Eastern part of the world" that "your culture is wrong", but MURDER IS WRONG. END OF STORY. (And no, I don't consider self-defense to be murder.)

What I think the people in the ME need is to move towards male and female equality. Don't forget: not that long ago, women in the U.S. and much of the "Western world" were considered second-class citizens and had little rights. But we progressed towards giving women equal rights and so the gap isn't so huge in present day for the Western world. You acknowledge that we made many changes in "Western culture," right? My question is, why is the "Eastern culture" so special and sacred that they shouldn't have to change a damn thing and not admit that, yeah, "maybe some parts of our culture are a little flawed"?

I was going to make a joke involving the '73 Mandatory Draft ending, but I'm not.

I do think it was a bit arrogant for "the West to come and tell the East that your culture is wrong" though.

Hmn, I do see the point.

But Eastern cultures get somewhat...errrrr.......barbaric when one tries to change them.

Don't always argue from an amoral view - you'll end up justifying some really strange things. Instead, find the reasons for/against each view, and come to your own conclusion.

Good point.

[eclipse]

I'm referring to the simple fact that every moment is pain.

Anyway, honour killing isn't a pagan sacrifice to a deity of some kind, it's not some sort of obsolete tradition that people do whether they like it or not. It's in their blood. It's not even a Muslim thing. Armenia and Georgia are both Christian countries (Eastern Christianity and Orthodoxy respectively), and vengeance and honour murder, while reproached by religious teachings, are not resisted and people are still tempted to carry them out.

Is it barbaric? Yes, it is, in the same way Hamlet's conflict was barbaric.

Lemme make sure I'm understanding you.

The people in the Middle East can't "help" but do this, because it's in their blood?

[Espinosa]

Lemme make sure I'm understanding you.

The people in the Middle East can't "help" but do this, because it's in their blood?

That's one reason.

[eclipse]

That's one reason.

Any OTHER reasons? Because what you have right now doesn't sound very helpful.

[CrashGordon94]

Ah, but putting it that way, how do we get them to change it?

I don't know, but that's not relevant. What you seemed to be saying was that they SHOULDN'T change it.

[MacLovin]

I don't know, but that's not relevant. What you seemed to be saying was that they SHOULDN'T change it.

But I already said that I couldn't articulate my point the way I wanted it to be viewed.

I'm referring to the simple fact that every moment is pain.

Anyway, honour killing isn't a pagan sacrifice to a deity of some kind, it's not some sort of obsolete tradition that people do whether they like it or not. It's in their blood. It's not even a Muslim thing. Armenia and Georgia are both Christian countries (Eastern Christianity and Orthodoxy respectively), and vengeance and honour murder, while reproached by religious teachings, are not resisted and people are still tempted to carry them out.

Is it barbaric? Yes, it is, in the same way Hamlet's conflict was barbaric.

I hope you mean that it's in their culture, and not blood/race......

Look, those practices are all of distorted views of Christanity, and it does exist.

I'm not going to touch your point any more, because Eclipse is just ready to go insane on you.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Sharpy