Raven Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161220/Indian-man-upset-daughter-sleeping-chops-head-sword-parades-round-village.html This is a very recent example of what is dubbed "honour killings", but the whole concept has been around for thousands of years. Human Rights Watch defines "honor killings" as follows: Honor killings are acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life. Yes, you read that right. A woman can get killed by her own family for being a victim of rape. We don't hear an awful lot about such things in the news and such, but they sure as hell exist. They happen in our countries, maybe even just in the town next door, a father is killing his daughter because she doesn't want to marry the man he chose for her. Just reading through some of the Wiki article on the subject will tell you that there's much of it going on in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing I'd love to stay and place more in this opening post, but it's gone 3am and I've been awake for about 38ish hours off the back of about 6 hours sleep. I'll post my thoughts on the matter later when I have time. In the mean time, discuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciarre Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 What. What. This kind of thing...I don't even know. Since when is sex worse than murder? And killing the victim for being raped? Just, what the fuck. :< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Mate Bob Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Not an issue in the United States specifically, but this kind of thing is integrated into so many eastern and middle eastern cultures that it will probably be a long time before we can see it terminated. That doesn't make it okay, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppy Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) ... This is depressing. I mean... Why shouldn't they be allowed to do the things mentioned... It's totally fair... As for the Rape thing, It's pathetic that somebody could get killed for something that isn't their fault whatsoever... Edited June 19, 2012 by Folgore Purple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 tl;dr for everything: people suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster! Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 In the mean time, discuss. What's there to discuss? Everyone's just going to go "Oh god, this is terrible blah blah blah" unless someone chooses to play devils advocate and go "serves them right for not keeping their purity blah blah blah" at which point everyone will just ridicule said person for being something along the lines of a horrible monster or just not take them seriously. Actually, I'd be pretty interested in seeing someone trying to defend why "honor killings" aren't a problem, or at least not a problem under certain situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Well, in a culture where being a rape victim is worthy of death, living really might not be so great, either. Depending on what the victim herself thinks, she might actually support the honor killing, too. Edited June 19, 2012 by Rewjeo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melonhead Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Being part of a western culture, I can't say much besides "Holy Sh** that is horrible etc." But killing the victum of sexual assault? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I don't want to insult Nightmare (a very good friend of mine) but I need to get this off of my chest. In most Middle Eastern countries (even in the West Bank and Gaza), this is the norm. Welcome to a world that is run by a religion that has perverted itself in the name of power. Women have no rights. Yes, you read that right. A girl is killed if she is raped because it is dishonourable for her to live. The victim gets a worse punishment than the perpetrator. I know a story of a mother that took her daughter to the police (in Israel near Hebron) for protection from the family because the daughter had been raped. Protection from her own family. Can you even imagine that? And the rest of the world thinks of it as... distasteful. The Middle East with regard to Israel vs. Arab countries is rife with double standards. If this happened in Israel (not just among the Arab population in the West Bank), there would be world outcry and Israel would be infringing on basic human rights (like the UN believes otherwise anyways). But in Iran? Egypt? Jordan? Saudi Arabia? Syria? Well... that's saddening but it just what happens there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 The whole "killed if you're raped" thing is one huge ring of fire. A woman who is raped will more than likely never disclose such a crime to her family or authorities for the sake of her own life. This just about allows men to take advantage of this and basically rape women knowing that the woman probably won't tell anyone ever. Since humans are programmed to have sex, an easy bit on the side is too good to pass up and so more and more men rape women, believing their crimes will go undetected. If people think they can get away with something, they will more than likely commit the act. Just my own deductions here, but I'd imagine rape is rife in countries where these honour killings are common. What would be the penalty for a man found guilty of rape? I would bet a week's paycheque that they don't face getting killed by their family or the death penalty, and I'm not even a betting man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Just my own deductions here, but I'd imagine rape is rife in countries where these honour killings are common. Quoted for truth. What would be the penalty for a man found guilty of rape? I would bet a week's paycheque that they don't face getting killed by their family or the death penalty, and I'm not even a betting man. "Nothing because he is a good Muslim man." - My roommate. I asked her if that was a joke. It's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I find it hard to believe that parents would choose the honour of their family name over the life of their daughter. Just as much to blame are the people who would look down on a family because one of their female members were found to be raped and still alive, and the only method to restore said respect, for what it's worth, is to kill the female. Never mind the offender. It's quite hard to comprehend. It's backwards. Inhumane. Humans make me angry, and the feeling of helplessness is quite heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I find it hard to believe that parents would choose the honour of their family name over the life of their daughter. Just as much to blame are the people who would look down on a family because one of their female members were found to be raped and still alive, and the only method to restore said respect, for what it's worth, is to kill the female. Never mind the offender. It's quite hard to comprehend. It's backwards. Inhumane. Humans make me angry, and the feeling of helplessness is quite heavy. They don't go after the offender though. Remember, this is the fucked up version of Islam. Even though women dress up so that you can only see their eyes (AKA so that men don't think of sexual fantasies), they were still tempting the man and therefore, it is their fault. It's like the guy who claims that the girl was asking to be raped because her skirt was that short... but now the court agrees with him and pardons him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 They don't go after the offender though. Remember, this is the fucked up version of Islam. Even though women dress up so that you can only see their eyes (AKA so that men don't think of sexual fantasies), they were still tempting the man and therefore, it is their fault. It's like the guy who claims that the girl was asking to be raped because her skirt was that short... but now the court agrees with him and pardons him. Yeah, that's what I meant. "Never mind" is generally slang for "ignore". My bad, there. Should've been more clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Religious justification seem to be cited often for them, but what the exact origins of those justifications are, seem to be slightly unclear. At least on a preliminary skim of the Wikipedia article. The entry seems to claim that it was almost universally common at different points in history. (see the ancient Romans- being raped was supposedly so bad for a woman's "life and reputation" that being killed for it was considered "merciful," and male relatives could even be punished themselves if they "failed" to carry out punishment themselves. it's claimed even american natives on both continents practiced some forms of it) I have to wonder to what degree religious and "cultural" differences might simply be convenient excuses, rather than the killings being symptomatic of heavily patriarchal societies. Even so, I don't quite get the "kill your daughter because she was raped" thing. I'd think even the most biased of interpretations would find it hard to call it a fault of hers, though I'm probably underestimating how much pressure there is to conform to expectations. It's probably worth noting the killings seem to target LGBT individuals for related, if not completely the same reasons. Reminds me of a recent(?) book that I heard detailed all a bunch of stupid things people have done over "honor" through history. Edited June 20, 2012 by Rehab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Actually I feel like I hear about this sort of thing discussed rather frequently. What would be the penalty for a man found guilty of rape? I would bet a week's paycheque that they don't face getting killed by their family or the death penalty, and I'm not even a betting man. I'm pretty sure that I've heard of cases of men who are relatives of a woman (not necessarily one who has not been raped) killing the man involved as well as the woman. The case that actually comes to mind was I believe of a man who, unlike what life was saying, was not a "good muslim man" so religious prejudice played a role, IIRC. The below link, on honor killings in the Kurdistan region of Iraq, suggests that while initial killings are usually of the female by her own family, since she is in their custody, the male offender against the family's honor is also at risk. It also says that it is not unusual for the family of the male offender to kill him in tandem with the family of the female offender killing her, to prevent an extended blood feud. Looking at the document, the consent of the woman doesn't even seem to be a matter of importance for the family involved - it's just, did these people have illegitimate sex? If they did, and thus dishonored the family, there's a chance the family will find them worthy of death. Law enforcement in this region doesn't seem to abet the honor killings, and seems to be interested in mediating peaceful solutions to avoid honor killings, but doesn't seem (from the report) to be interested in punishing honor killings. And it seems that men don't generally seek out law enforcement's protection after an honor killing, though they are at risk. https://www.nyidanma...SLUTRAPPORT.pdf (LOL slut rapport) The report claims that, at least in the KRI, it's actually harder for men to get protection from an honor killing since there's less infrastructure for them to be sheltered or whatever by the government; at the same time, they do seem to be at less risk (thoguh not no risk) of being killed by their own families than women, and it seems that there is a large and influential tribe that often takes a role in negotiating settlements in the matter of honor crimes that those from smaller tribes can try to work with and get protection from. I have to wonder to what degree religious and "cultural" differences might simply be convenient excuses, rather than the killings being symptomatic of heavily patriarchal societies. Of course, without a lot of detailed investigation, we might say as easily that heavily patriarchal societies are symptomatic of certain religious and cultural differences. Edited June 19, 2012 by Hawkeye Hank Hatfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The idea that honour killings are things that don't happen in North America is a very wrong notion. Last year, a man in Montreal killed one of his wives (yes, he had two) and three daughters for "improper behaviour". He was aided by his second wife and his oldest son in this. It was called the Shafia case, if anyone wants to read about it. I also vaguely remember this case years back about a man in Vancouver who hired someone to kill his daughter and her husband because she didn't marry a Muslim. Now, these cases both originate in Canada because I'm Canadian and therefore know these stories better, but I'm sure they've happened in USA as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Mate Bob Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) The idea that honour killings are things that don't happen in North America is a very wrong notion. Last year, a man in Montreal killed one of his wives (yes, he had two) and three daughters for "improper behaviour". He was aided by his second wife and his oldest son in this. It was called the Shafia case, if anyone wants to read about it. I also vaguely remember this case years back about a man in Vancouver who hired someone to kill his daughter and her husband because she didn't marry a Muslim. Now, these cases both originate in Canada because I'm Canadian and therefore know these stories better, but I'm sure they've happened in USA as well. The difference is that those murders actually went to trial and the perpetrator was actually sentenced. Edited June 20, 2012 by 1st Mate Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The difference is that those murders actually went to trial and the perpetrator was actually sentenced. That doesn't mean it's not an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Mate Bob Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 That doesn't mean it's not an issue. Honor killings specifically aren't an issue, because in the eyes of the judicial system, it's still just murder. Your own justifications don't hold up whatsoever. The issue in question is that in certain countries, honor killings are legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) The idea that honour killings are things that don't happen in North America is a very wrong notion. But that's not the point. If honour killings happened in any democratic country (Canada/Israel/GB...), there would be a trial and public uproar. But when it happens in the Middle East (excluding Israel), it's considered culturally acceptable and the rest of the world views it as "a pity". EDIT: I actually do remember the Shafia case and the uproar it caused. Because it happened in Montreal, people were shocked and wanted the family to hang. That doesn't happen everywhere. Edited June 20, 2012 by Life Admiral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I recognize that the fact that honour killings are acceptable in other countries is a much larger issue than the fact that they occur, but are illegal, here. But it's still an issue, even if it is relatively smaller. I just didn't want people to brush over the killings that happen here just because the offenders are punished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 But when it happens in the Middle East (excluding Israel), it's considered culturally acceptable and the rest of the world views it as "a pity". Is it really viewed as culturally acceptable, or just not our business to rectify (AKA, don't be planet Earth police)? Is it really practical to do more than to deplore it, when you're a citizen of another country? I'm a little skeptical there's much that can be done. The article I referred to earlier seemed to indicate there were some NGOs in the KRI region that offer support for potential victims of retaliation for "honor crimes." Relocation (within or out of country) as well. It does seem (from a few cursory looks at webpages that look reputable) that GB and Canada - didn't see stuff on the US - may have some serious failures in terms of granting asylum to women who have reason to fear honor killing at home. I'm pretty sure that in the US, asylum is usually only obtainable when you're the victim of government persecution, but if its a form of crime the government is unwilling or incapable of moving against, asylum can be granted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) Is it really viewed as culturally acceptable, or just not our business to rectify (AKA, don't be planet Earth police)? Is it really practical to do more than to deplore it, when you're a citizen of another country? I'm about to go on a rant. Not trying to hijack the thread but I need to vent. First off all, most of these cases happen in the Middle East. My territory, not yours. This is culturally normal here (not Israel but ME in general) and the world does nothing but "condone" it. Fine. It would be nice if the world stayed out of our business but what can you do? My real issue is not with the fact that atrocities happen but rather that the world then turns around and blames Israel for infringing on human rights. We are a country with legitimately more freedoms than the world's self-proclaimed "free nation" (I'm looking at you, USA, and your illegalization of gay marriage). We are surrounded by countries which deny women basic human rights, all in the name of Mohammed the Prophet. Take the blockade of Gaza that's been up for years now as an example. How many resolutions have been passed by the UN against Israel's inhumane actions simply regarding the blockade? Countless. But does the rest of the world realize that the PA treats their own citizens worse than we do? We provide food, we take out the terrorist organization which hides in their homes and uses their children as human shields... We do that stuff. Not their own government. Many Palestinians don't really care two figs about Israel because they actually want to live in peace. Unfortunately, it's their government that screws it up. What I'm trying to get at is that if nothing is going to be done about honour killings (which nothing should be done because this stuff will continue), then stop lambasting Israel as being the nation that denies freedoms. Sorry about that, needed to rant. I recognize that the fact that honour killings are acceptable in other countries is a much larger issue than the fact that they occur, but are illegal, here. But it's still an issue, even if it is relatively smaller. I just didn't want people to brush over the killings that happen here just because the offenders are punished. Murder is a crime. Murder is an issue. And yet, there are murders every day in every city of the world. Just because something is deemed unacceptable doesn't mean that it won't continue. I really don't understand your point. Education of issues is a wonderful thing but it means nothing without an agenda. Edited June 20, 2012 by Life Admiral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 What is with people complaining about the culture and way other cultures do things. Well, from what I know, women in cultures that do that, well, let me say a bit of what I know. This may or may not be true. -Parents prefer Male Children, and as such, female children are generally tried to be married off in arranged marriages. -WOmen do all the domestic work, in some of those cultures. I can see why people of the Western World would be shocked, but place yourself in the shoes of one belonging/understanding cultures that practice this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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