Penalizing Jeigans

[Refa]

Lest people forget, this topic is not Penalizing Titania, but rather Penalizing Jeigans.

So I'd like to see a good reason for why I shouldn't give Seth all of the EXP.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Refa

[Chiki]

Alright then, I'll take your suggestion.

Chapter 1: Titania carries Ike and the only kill she gets is the boss kill. Quite useful here.

Chapter 2: A 3-turn is possible with some insane RNG abuse without using Titania at all. I'm not sure if a 4 turn is feasible without Titania, but it might be possible. Regardless, Titania is handy here as well.

Chapter 3, 4, 6, 7: Useful in all of these chapters.

Chapter 9: Useful to kill the boss and such, but not necessary if you have a decent enough Oscar.

Chapter 10 and 11: Useful in these chapters too.

That's it. She becomes completely unnecessary, and actually makes your team weaker in the long run if you use her at all, because you need to charge with Oscar, Kieran, Ike and Marcia so they can gain experience for later chapters.

Oscar and Kieran, off the top of my head, are useful to get the Resolve scroll in Chapter 27 and to carry Mordecai in 17-2. It's very hard to distribute exp in an LTC playthrough because everyone needs it, and using Titania could mean that you might not even have enough exp to have them promoted on 17-2, and you can lose a turn.

Ike needs to have a really high level for chapters like 16 and 23 so he doesn't get ganged up on by enemies near the seize throne and get murdered. Ike also needs to be able to one-round Generals with high strength for 21 so his path doesn't get blocked, in order to get a 4 turn. I personally used a 20 magic Ike for Chapter 23 and 27, but I know that's frowned upon.

Titania really has no use other than earlygame, and she's a consistent weight on your midgame and lategame potential even when you use her, which is why I think she's not the goddess everyone thinks she is.

[Othin]

Lest people forget, this topic is not Penalizing Titania, but rather Penalizing Jeigans.

So I'd like to see a good reason for why I shouldn't give Seth all of the EXP.

Titania is an especially funny case since more than any other, units in her game can level up without doing anything on the battlefield. FE10 also has BExp, but it works a bit differently with its set number of stat gains rather than simply functioning as an Exp pump, although it can do that too.

So I'd think this concept would apply less to her than to any of the others in the first place.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Othin

[Espinosa]

So I'd like to see a good reason for why I shouldn't give Seth all of the EXP.

You benefit from having an extra competent Paladin (as demonstrated by Horace's - I think - blessed Franz in his recentest LTC run), promoting Tana with chapter 14e's Elysian whip and having Saleh participate in enough battles to have super high magic to warp Seth to slay bosses. And if you go for the absolutest low turns, you learn how important it is that crucial members of your party are given the attention they deserve to contribute to the lowest turns.

[dondon151]

Titania really has no use other than earlygame, and she's a consistent weight on your midgame and lategame potential even when you use her, which is why I think she's not the goddess everyone thinks she is.

but that is still way more useful than anyone else except marcia/jill

[Chiki]

but that is still way more useful than anyone else except marcia/jill

Since when did I deny that?

Again, that's not the point. I've seen people like Mekkah and Anouleth argue that her exp hogging can't be used against her, which is plain false, as I hope my playthrough has shown. The point is that I've seen so many people worship her and turn her into some sort of turn-cutting goddess that she isn't.

[Refa]

You benefit from having an extra competent Paladin (as demonstrated by Horace's - I think - blessed Franz in his recentest LTC run), promoting Tana with chapter 14e's Elysian whip and having Saleh participate in enough battles to have super high magic to warp Seth to slay bosses. And if you go for the absolutest low turns, you learn how important it is that crucial members of your party are given the attention they deserve to contribute to the lowest turns.

Oh, definitely. I'd just say that Seth wouldn't be penalized for getting the majority of the early game kills (I'd say kills in general, but I'm not really sure on that point, even though it's probably true) because he makes the best use of them by far.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Refa

[Lord Raven]

Again, that's not the point. I've seen people like Mekkah and Anouleth argue that her exp hogging can't be used against her, which is plain false, as I hope my playthrough has shown. The point is that I've seen so many people worship her and turn her into some sort of turn-cutting goddess that she isn't.

But it can't be used against her without it being unfair. Using her takes away exp from everyone else like using everyone takes exp away from her... It's not like most units are that useful once you get a flier anyway

[Chiki]

But it can't be used against her without it being unfair. Using her takes away exp from everyone else like using everyone takes exp away from her... It's not like most units are that useful once you get a flier anyway

The point is that it's stupid if you use Titania after earlygame because she has no potential at all. The cost of using Titania is greater than the cost of using Oscar because Titania has low potential, and cannot level up as quickly as Oscar can. You "profit" more from using Oscar than you do from using Titania in the long run. Using Titania, in the long run, hurts your team.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine

[Espinosa]

You advise us to minimise the use of Titania, yet in your lowest turn run Kieran never quite catches up to her in level and she's the 2nd person in terms of kills, beaten only by 20/20 Falco Marcia. So can you agree that using Titania is still a necessary evil in efficiency runs?

[Chiki]

You advise us to minimise the use of Titania, yet in your lowest turn run Kieran never quite catches up to her in level and she's the 2nd person in terms of kills, beaten only by 20/20 Falco Marcia. So can you agree that using Titania is still a necessary evil in efficiency runs?

They were actually the same level in the epilogue. so I don't know what you're talking about...?

Indeed, but only in earlygame. Even in my playthrough, I stopped using her after 11 (only once in 16, and that was only to get the Full Guard, which isn't necessary). I think the reason she got that many kills was from the defense chapters and 7, which is a rout.

[Lord Raven]

The point is that it's stupid if you use Titania after earlygame because she has no potential at all. The cost of using Titania is greater than the cost of using Oscar because Titania has low potential, and cannot level up as quickly as Oscar can. You "profit" more from using Oscar than you do from using Titania in the long run. Using Titania, in the long run, hurts your team.

But it's not stupid because there's enough BEXP in this game to more than make up for what Titania does early-game. What is your point? Whatever argument you are making is completely lost in FE9.

[Chiki]

But it's not stupid because there's enough BEXP in this game to more than make up for what Titania does early-game. What is your point? Whatever argument you are making is completely lost in FE9.

We had this same argument on my LTC thread, and I kept telling you that there just isn't enough bonus experience to go around several times, but for some reason you refuse to believe me despite my endeavors on giving units bexp.

[Shotguner159]

The point is that it's stupid if you use Titania after earlygame because she has no potential at all. The cost of using Titania is greater than the cost of using Oscar because Titania has low potential, and cannot level up as quickly as Oscar can. You "profit" more from using Oscar than you do from using Titania in the long run. Using Titania, in the long run, hurts your team.

Oscar at 20/20 has 4 Strength, 2 Skill, 2 Speed and 4 Defence over Titania. Considering that Titania is going to get there first if I use her and Oscar equally, I don't see how Titania has "no potential at all."

We had this same argument on my LTC thread, and I kept telling you that there just isn't enough bonus experience to go around several times, but for some reason you refuse to believe me despite my endeavors on giving units bexp.

I think the point is we give the earlygame units BEXP to make up for the CEXP that Titania got.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Shotguner159

[Lord Raven]

I'm not sure why we had this argument, because my LTC proved that i could use more than twice as many units as you and have a very adequate runthrough. Comparing my TCs to yours, the only thing setting us apart is around 3-4 turns at best, and I've personally never had a problem with stats being too low. Try again.

[MacLovin]

Alright, which one of you fiddled with the time machine and set us 3 years back?

Haha.

**Disappears from existence.**

Using faulty logic? Only responding to posts that have an easy answer available because they didn't elaborate a lot?

Great Scott. We have to get this forum back to the future!

Beam yourself up scotty.

Yeah, you should talk to me.

http://serenesforest...showtopic=33397

Try a draft, seriously.

but that is still way more useful than anyone else except marcia/jill

--------------------------------

Titania has decent bases+growths.

She'll always be a great unit to pull out anytime in the early-mid game. And maybe lategame if she's got some levelling+bexp.

[Mekkah]

Obviously, if there's a scrub enemy with 4 HP somewhere on the field, it's better to pick it off with Oscar than with Titania (or Franz over Seth or w/e). But the only reason for that is because these earlygame Paladins are already awesome. The fact that Titania doesn't do as much with that scrub enemy's EXP as Oscar does is already factored into her tier placement by comparing them midgame with Oscar having gained, say, 15 levels while Titania only gained 5 (or some other arbitrary number). Giving her another penalty for "hogging EXP" is double penalizing her for this.

Think of Titania as an Oscar that already ate like 100 scrub enemies for breakfast, and only then starts dipping into the BEXP/CEXP pool from Chapter 1 and onwards.

[dondon151]

Since when did I deny that?

Again, that's not the point.

But that is your point if you think that Titania is "overrated." An argument doesn't make sense if it's "hey guys, Titania isn't as good as you think she is; btw she's still like the best character in the game pretty much."

The point is that I've seen so many people worship her and turn her into some sort of turn-cutting goddess that she isn't.

No one would argue that Titania is anything extraordinarily special after the 11th chapter or so. You're not really disagreeing with anyone; you just think you are.

[Rapier]

Uh...what?

Let's think of an example. You're in charge of a company and the company is going to close down in a year.

Earlygame: 4 months

Midgame: 4 months

Lategame: 4 months

You have employees named Ike, Oscar, Titania, Kieran and Marcia.

Titania brings in a lot of profit for the first 4 months of the company, which is the earlygame. However, the problem with Titania is that she does so much of the work that the other members can't gain enough experience to do work later during the lifetime of the company. Another problem is that Titania is already so experienced that she can't gain anymore.

That is a fallacy. You can use Titania while not stealing EXP from the other units. Sometimes it's better to kill That Annoying Boss with her/be more daring and risk taking with her than do it the hard way.

Not using a good worker is a bad thing. Just use her talents accordingly. There is more profit in that.

However, in midgame, the company starts to not be able to make as much money as before. Why? Because Titania stole so much of the spotlight that the other units weren't able to gain experience, and Titania became as good as useless midgame. The company director realizes that, instead of giving attention to Titania, he should've used her as sparsely as possible and instead give a lot of attention to employees like Ike, Oscar, Kieran and Marcia etc. because they have a lot more potential than Titania does. The company closes down after a year due to his stupid mistake.

Weird example, but I hope that explains things.

Only newbies let Titania solo chapters and steal EXP from the other units. I'm currently playing with her on my team and I'm not having any problems with the other units (except Oscar who's got cursed by the RNG).

The point is that it's stupid if you use Titania after earlygame because she has no potential at all. The cost of using Titania is greater than the cost of using Oscar because Titania has low potential, and cannot level up as quickly as Oscar can. You "profit" more from using Oscar than you do from using Titania in the long run. Using Titania, in the long run, hurts your team.

Imo she's still a solid supporting unit and will do her job (though with less proficiency than the other units).

Edited July 24, 2012 by Rapier

[General Horace]

You benefit from having an extra competent Paladin (as demonstrated by Horace's - I think - blessed Franz in his recentest LTC run), promoting Tana with chapter 14e's Elysian whip and having Saleh participate in enough battles to have super high magic to warp Seth to slay bosses. And if you go for the absolutest low turns, you learn how important it is that crucial members of your party are given the attention they deserve to contribute to the lowest turns.

I actually promoted Franz last in my run due to the fact he was above average. The first paladin i promoted was forde, and I don't think he had a stat except maybe defence that exceeded 10 when he did so. Franz didn't promote until after the desert. Only reason Kyle/Forde/Franz even promoted was for the extra movement, they were largely useless in combat.

I don't know FE9 very well (read at all) so I can't comment on the viability of tightening titania's leash a little bit in the early game, but I know for a fact it would be a horrible mistake to feed franz/vanessa all the earlygame exp in FE8.

[Liz]

i remember someone explaining it this way which helped me wrap my brain around it, it might have been mekkah

suppose a 5 man team consisting of Ike/Boyd/Oscar/Soren/Mia. Pretty cool team huh, killing the things all the way. nobody really gets babied, because they're cool like. seems solid.

but now suppose you remove Oscar and replace him with Titania

is the team any worse? not really, because if no one is getting babied, it shouldn't matter much since Titania is essentially an Oscar who has been already pre-leveled up. she's already leveled up, at the cost of growing slightly slower than the other units in the earlygame.

however, it would make earlygame and much of midgame substantially easier to include Titania, and due to the level advantage, the other units shouldn't really catch up to titania until early endgame maybe, and the "stat disadvantage" shouldn't really matter much when the units are still killing everything in their paths without much difficulty anyways.

[HongLei]

I think the point is we give the earlygame units BEXP to make up for the CEXP that Titania got.

We aren't oppressed by communism, let the exp fall wherever the heck we feel like. Don't distribute it to everyone just those who can do something with it: Oscar, Kieren, Marcia, Jill, and maybe Ike post promo. Those five, Titania, Reyson, and a healer are all you need.

[Ein]

I like how this discussion is typical of any other FE discussion.

Love you guys~

[CrashGordon94]

I like how this discussion is typical of any other FE discussion.

Love you guys~

And this comment isn't any better.

[MacLovin]

Shitstorm ahead.

Ok, let's take drafts for instance.

in fe9 drafts, when LTC'd, Titania is generally used for bosskilling, and early knight killing.

She gets like 30 exp from a bosskill and the 1st tier scrubs can easily get a lvl from CEXP or BEXP, so the bosskill benefits TItania more.

And I think this is applicable in almost every FE.