Nostalgia Mafia Game Over

[BBM]

Well, I'm not currently voting for Elie, but he's one of my top scumreads because he keeps giving scumreads out of nowhere and giving no explanations, which is annoying. Plus, his first post listing his scumreads included SB and the second one didn't even though the second one was supposedly more complete than the first. It feels like he's just pulling these out of thin air. For example, when I said he found Prims scummy based on only the PGO claim, he replied by saying that the 10 pages of posts since that claim had made him think Prims was scummy based on something other than the claim, but he doesn't actually say what it is in the 10 pages of posts that is making him think this way. And when I press him to give more reasons, he acts like just outing his scumreads is bad.

My vote is on Kay because she's just handwaving everything said against her and still not actually taking steps to rectify what I thought was wrong with what she was doing.

[Grace]

@ Manix: You recent posts, starting with the one that has Elie giving you a headache, give me the impression that you're rethinking the vote. The 'cooler' tone towards him in #342 sort of supports this. At least, in my eyes, it does.

I was getting a headche because his posts still didn't make much sense.

Not really. He still didn't seem happy about outing his scumreads, which is a reason why I am keeping my vote on him.

It was more a pressure into actually elaborating and to actually contribute.

[Elieson]

@bbm, manix replaced SB, for the reason of why I voted for him.

@snike, and everyone else, I have come to accept that my response iso post will have to wait until tomorrow. My "pondering" was in reference to every player's first (and second) response to Prims' role claim. While I didn't think it was scummy in itself to claim, I'm certain that most (if not all) responses would include a brush off the shoulder, and a wait until later days before considering a policy lynch. In fact, the ones who most effortlessly cast off his claim are, to me, the most worrisome players of the game. Because it's very easy to blend in, especially on day 1, and by pgo claim to the sidelines with a single post, it indicates to me just how easy it is to ignore.

Prims is able to coast by for now, and honestly, at this point, that's irrelevant to me. The lack of general interest in his claim indicates to me that the masses (of scum especially), are just hopping on the wagon of ignorance; that's the source of my frustration and persistance.

More simply put,

Taking a general nonissue and acknowledging it like everyone else does nothing for the scenario we are in. Anyone who challenges something so obviously commonplace like a pgo claim very likely wouldn't be doing it for the wrong reasons; which leaves the ones who wave it by. Those are the ones that should be examined the most closely.

That's my logic on Prims. Now like I said, I get internet reconnected tomorrow, so I won't be phone bound. I will iso initial responses and base opinions and post reads based on that. My game goes from there.

[Kay]

My scumreads right now are Elie because his play is starting to feel really similar to how he was in ICBINSFMM3, and Kay, because while her post complaining about frequently getting mislynched for not scumhunting felt sort of sincere, she still didn't actually respond to anything against her in any way other than by saying she's not good at scumhunting.

Uh, dude, what did I not respond to? Please point me in the direction of these posts, kthx

Prims, how does Manix's reaction make you feel that Kay is town and scum is trying to take advantage of her wagon? If that was the case, then wouldn't scum!Manix be voting for Kay instead of defending her?

Because then when I flipped town, Manix would look like the good guy who stuck his neck out to defend a townie.

I would hardly call thinking 2 people (Elieson + you) are scummy is nearly everyone. I'm also annoyed that you basically handwaved everything said against you and didn't really respond to it at all. I was just about to switch to Elieson but I think I'll stay here.

Aere, and I had remembered you being more accusatory toward Marth and Sage than you actually were, sorry. Dude, I didn't notice your post. Sorry, but I occasionally have things to do and I was trying to post before my mom kicked me off the computer.

Did you read my list bbm? Did you read the thing after it? The part where I said the rest of my reads, include scum?

<snip>

Kay, incorrect. I said town, scum, and neutral intentionally. I don't know how many scum there are, and I think it's foolish to just say everything I think regarding reads all at once.

Why are you refusing to reveal scum reads? Why is it foolish? If you think someone's scum, don't you want them lynched? If so, how do you expect to increase the chance of that happening without speaking up? Plus, it gives you a way to go back and say "Oh yeah, that guy who just flipped mafia? I've been really suspicious of him all game, you know!"

As for Kay, well, she's only been posting in defense up until and including the vote on BBM, which wasn't explained until later, with poor justification IMO. The fact that it was non sequitor to what she was saying at the time struck me as suspicious as well, in a way that's hard to put into words. Call it gut.

Uh, I'd say defending myself is justified at the moment. Besides, I had multiple posts before then that weren't defensive, so yeah.

My vote is on Kay because she's just handwaving everything said against her and still not actually taking steps to rectify what I thought was wrong with what she was doing.

Skimming over a few "kay isn't trying to scumhunt" posts =/= "handwaving everything", I think. Can't say for sure because I can't think of anything applicable you could mean by that.

Ok fine.

Prims, Kay, BBM, Psych, Manix.

Good thing they all know that I suspect them now.

I guess they can change their act, and those who I didn't list as scum have nothing to worry about from me.

Okay, what would you suggest we do instead of posting scumreads, since you think it's such a bad idea?

[charlie_]

Post deleted itself and I have to go soon so I'll make it quick.

quote name='Elieson' date='27 September 2012 - 02:11 AM' timestamp='1348708317' post='2139347']

Did you read my list bbm? Did you read the thing after it? The part where I said the rest of my reads,

Kay, incorrect. I said town, scum, and neutral intentionally. I don't know how many scum there are, and I think it's foolish to just say everything I think regarding reads all at once.

I don't like this. Why did you think we wanted to know all of your reads at once? I'm fairly sure people just wanted to know who you thought were scummy.

Also, when you posted your new list, suddenly I was off it, when I hadn't been on and done anything to dissprove you. That and your obsession with Prims earlier makes me want to vote you.

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

[eclipse]

FIRST.

##Unvote

Just did a quick skim of the topic. I want to reread in more depth before placing a vote anywhere (gimme about an hour).

[Bluedoom]

Just came backf rom an exam and re-reading, but that SB vote looks bad. And god so much shit Eli is getting, totally need to read the thread.

[eclipse]

I'm gonna do blocks addressed to various people, to save my sanity. I'm tired, and still need dinner. ;/

Shinori - First thing that pops into my head when I hear hidden is hidden, not alignment. The split between town/neutral has been pretty even, IIRC. Though I didn't much care for the way you defended yourself, I'll attribute that to alcohol for the time being. You're doing a hell of a lot more than when I first voted you, hence the unvote. As for my opinion of Aere, skip to his section, then the bottom of this post.

BBM - Don't agree with the early Kay vote, nor do I agree that the reason behind my initial Shinori vote was weak. As town, if I think something is a slip, I'd be remiss if I didn't point it out. Posts like these make my skin crawl, especially since Snike explained why he voted for you. You did really well as town in the last Anonymafia - ISO yourself and see the difference.

Kay - You want scumhunting tips? Reread GSM on the cycle you died. You don't need to be Super Bitch eclipse to get things done, but you can't sit back and ask questions that garner no reaction, either.

Elieson - Theory's nice, but not as a substitute for scumhunting. This would've been a nice vote if it didn't have that bit about defending Shinori in there. And then there's this, which I don't like because there's no telling WHAT mafia has, so worrying about a theoretical redirect feels like a distraction from scumhunting. STOP ACTING INTENTIONALLY SCUMMY, IT DOESN'T HELP MATTERS. Last time that "intentionally scummy" defense popped up, he WAS scum. However, I don't care for the two lazy votes on him (Cam and Bananas).

Aere - Read what's above your head. I strongly disagree with your points regarding town/scum PGO, but that isn't going to help find scum, so I won't elaborate.

Psych - ilutoo, but if you got your case on Aere via ISO, then you're being lazy (since that's the only way I see it holding water). You more-or-less make sense, then this (asking someone to lynch someone else who looks worse is hardly town-like).

Snike - Vote for who you think is scummy. You're allowed to change your mind.

Rein - I'm more interested in your alignment than role (and thanks a bunch for taking the mafia with the wordkills).

Prims - What does this mean in somethingunderstandabletothemajorityofusplayers?

Cam - Hi, please be more memorable.

With that out of the way. . .

##Vote: Serious Bananas

Comes in, does a RVS for a rather weak reason, votes for someone who probably hasn't read things, this feels like he's standing back and watching things happen, then sudden Eliejump after a day full of "dunno what to think about him". What are your opinions of everything ELSE in this game?

[Bluedoom]

Ok so, my thoughts:

Wrt Prims question: Kay's posts haven't 'contributed towards scumhunting' but they're better than the others who posted around that time. Her questioning your reason for the pick is a good one and is just a way of being wary and not totally believing you as town. I agree that some of the stuff she said is unnecessary yet its not like Aere or Rein or BBM ever contributed anything at that time(or even me, for that matter.) I'm strictly speaking about your initial vote on Kay and those reasons. Atm those reasons kinda make sense considering all Kay's doing is defending herself, but at that time I didn't feel a case. Also I didn't vote Eli because he acts like this every game( I don't like it though, because I think paranoia is his scumtell) and I haven't voted Kay because let's face it- the difference between 3 votes on you and 4 votes is negligible.

Other things:

Eli is just hurting his case at this point. As if PGO spec and assumptions were not enough, now I'm seeing big posts with him defending himself. On top of that he throws in a few names of players he finds scummy but doesn't elaborate(For eg: Why does he think Prims is scummy?) I would vote him but I think the wagon on him is much worse and the voters I have a problem with are SB and Rapier.

I dislike SB's "Oh I need to say something and vote. Eli looks like the easiest target" kind of post. That vote looks oppurtunistic as heck and warrants attention.

Rapier's post ##300 is just horrible. It might be because I'm a bit biased, but I don't see how Kay's been posting walls of passive-aggressive text when the only post which looked like that was the one against Shinori. PGO point is well noted, Rapier, please tell me what is her 'fluff'? This is D1, everything at this point is 'fluff' considering we have no flips or anything. That and the fluff most were talking about was ED1, which is just worse to base that statement on. Not buying the case against BBM is one thing, but your reasoning doesn't go well with me: People find BBM scummy for jumping on Rapier and eclipse for POINTING OUT AN INCONSISTENCY. Its not like Shinori was going to get lynched anytime soon, this is jumping the gun and getting overly paranoid. Also you're trying to tell us that we shouldn't go after inconsistencies with that bold text over there. ##Vote: Rapier

I don't like the fact that BBM is on Kay for 'not doing anything' but he took it out on Manix and eclipse for pointing out an inconsistency in Shinori's post. Otherwise he's ok, his point against Elieson are valid( and I even said earlier that finding people scummy for a claim is dumb)

Kay I find is kinda defensive which is not that great, so it'd be nice if you went on the offensive sometime.

Everyone else are null/town reads. For now.

[Kay]

SB needs to talk more and throw his vote at an easy target less, but I'm not sure it's scummy because IIRC he does that anyway, I think he's just noobtown.

That said, Dark Sage should sub out if he's going to exist less than unicorns.

I'm gonna reread and see if anybody just hopped from one wagon to another without much individual thought. I suspect scum are nearly all voting for me and/or Eli at some point.

[Bluedoom]

blame from who? also if you aren't confirmed or seeming particularly town, you're scummy by default. sorry, but that's how it works. right now I'd say eclipse and prims are leaning town for me, and maybe cam and snike. Kay is either trying too hard scum or ineffectual town. everyone else is varying degrees with Aere and BBM and Elieson and you leading the pack

Ok so apart from me agreeing that the only thing I can remember about you is- LOLOL PEOPLE ARE DUMB, question:

Any reason you find Snike and Camtech townier? I could see something from Snike, but Cam has literally done nothing but flail about and post irrelevant stuff... or sheep wrt Elieson vote. Also would like you to explain why you felt Aere stood out during the PGO discussion, it'd be good if you could quote some of his posts and explain. I'd like to ask why you think eclipse and Prims look town to you, or, wth, WHY YOU EVEN OUTED TOWN READS when that obviously isn't helping town at all.

[BBM]

@Kay- I can't pull up any specific posts right now, but the only reply you made to any of the posts that I, or earlier on Prims, made, was by saying that you just weren't a good scumhunter.

@Eclipse- I've tried, but I honestly can't see much of a difference between my play this game and my play last game. I'm trying to make my play more consistent, but I'm not really sure what quality my posts had in Anonydraft that they don't have here. Also, Snike's only explanation of his vote against me prior to my post that you linked was that I seemed to be abusing the question mark, which I didn't understand until he elaborated more after my post.

Anyways, when I come back in the evening I'm going to try to reread this thread and see if there are things I'm missing.

[CT075]

This is what you might be looking for.

i saw that but i didn't take that as you saying "STOP ENDING RVS" and more "STOP DOING IT IN THE WAY YOU DO"

Cam- Gut(?)

[...]

I am not sure what to think of cam, as on one hand he's throwing around terms like no tomorrow, but on the other hand, he's not really providing much reasoning besides gut.

I don't care for the two lazy votes on him (Cam and Bananas).

Cam has literally done nothing but flail about and post irrelevant stuff...

i explained my reasons more than once but i'll reiterate since apparently nobody can see it

I don't like how much elie started pushing us to look deeper into prims and then backs off like he actually bought it and/or guessed that prims was town all along

and then there's this post that is basically a giant play for emotion (seriously, read that last line ;/ )... and he STILL continues not voting prims. For what alternative? Kay had admittedly not done a lot, but posts like this and this just rub me the wrong way entirely.

[Grace]

incoming late night post where I am really sleepy, but whatevs

with slight rereading capacity

i saw that but i didn't take that as you saying "STOP ENDING RVS" and more "STOP DOING IT IN THE WAY YOU DO"

And apparently that's where some people thought I was trying to stifle discussion with it (see Prims, at least that's what I could make out from that post of his (the one that Clipsey pointed out))

Psych post #329 I don't like.

"also these are bad reasons because wow I'm playing better than you rein. what exactly am I not doing?"

Well I'll let Rein deal with the question, but; whether you're playing better than someone or not doesn't mean that their arguments are invalid. I want to say it's a ad hominem, but I'm not quite sure if that's the right term I'm looking for here. Something along those lines, anyway. Also all the stuff from my earlier gut check are still being considered.

I'm certain that my suspicion on Prims was not based on his claim. I called it out, learned from the reactions, and based my opinions and reads on them. I never thought prims actually was scum from the moment he claimed. But 10+ pages of posts happened. And reads developed.

Cannot remember if I already addressed this, but hey

Elie, this makes no sense. You voted Prims because of his role claim. It's wasn't a RVS vote, you said so yourself. Ergo; you must have thought that his claim was suspect. Hence you wanted him lynched at that time. This doesn't add up at all. I can understand getting reads and stuff out of it, but the intention behind the initial vote was that Prims was scummy, there's no other way I see it.

Unfortunately, I can't vote Elie again >_>

[Elieson]

Argh.

For the record, on a scale of 1-100, prims is around 51% scummy, and that's because of his meta where I'm used to him starting a game off as town by doing ridiculous stunts like bluffing vig shots. He's being surprisingly mild and tame in this game, and it just seems slightly off to me. It'd be like if Shinori was all apologetic one game, or if Eclipse suddsnly decided to support massclaiming without explaination. I know it's weak, because it's meta, but I'm not willing to discredit it. Plus, I'm also opposed believing he is town just because he claimed an antitown role early on. Sure he may be town, but at tgis point in D1, it's damn hard to earn a town rating from anyone. It's more like Scum-Scumlean-neutral-TownLean.

SB earned his spot back on my scumlist for not actually scumhunting and for voting for me with crappy reasoning. You think I'm scum because I did not put you in my main scumreads list (or because I thought you were scummy, then shit happened and my opinion of other players scummy behavior had outweighed yours).

Kay (and SB), it's early/mid Day 1. My thoughts on outing various scumreads are based under the assumption that we can't do something about more than 4 players at this point. Had I said I have 9 scumreads instead of 5, then I'm be throwing my FOS in every direction, and obviously there aren't 9 scum (since we'd be in MYLO/LYLO already...whichever it is, I get them confused with each other). I'm attempting to prioritize, my scumreads to a number that is both managable and realistic by d1 standards.

---

Perhaps at this point, we should all out our top 3-5 scumreads at this point, with a brief reason as to why. It'd give us something to consider (how many people think scum other than apparently just me exists), and also it would draw light on those who others may not view as scum. Save the detailed argument for a bit later on, just say like "Prims, for odd meta. SB for a strange vote and essentially OMGUS (albeit backwards)" etc.

---

Aere. Mind explaining your vote on me? You just said I play like I normally do, then voted for me.,Does that imply that a sudden change in playstyle would present me as not scummy in your eyes?

---

Cam feels to me that he is defending Prims (based on this).

i think we should let prims be (for now) and go after someone else

for example i don't like how hard elie's pushing so hard for a basically useless lynch (as well as other documented reasons that i agree with)

lynching prims now nets us basically no information except for his role (and the relevant interactions but we can get those by lynching other people, no?)

You call it a useless lynch. If he was scum, then it would be very useful then to lynch him. The only way it's not a useful lynch is if he is gaurenteed town, and since apparently not even an inspect can prove that, Prims should never be obvtown (on Day, or even D2 imo. On what grounds are you able to infer that Prims (or anyone really) is a useless lynch?

---

Rapier voted for me because I'm confusing him with my "lack of opinions", and he thinks I'm third party. That's his argument. That's a policy lynch argument, and I'm certain that at this point, we should have something to go on besides what you seem to consider being a policy lynch.

---

Psych seems overall berating and noncontributory (is that a word?). I would love to see an actual non-iso specific case from him not including the words "stupid" and "idiot".

---

eclipse, thoughts on Manix?

---

Manix, do you think my vote on you in unjustified, weak, or both? I personally don't like RVS, and I have yet to see someone break RVS early in a town way. Sure sure it was /implied/ that you meant "breaking rvs in the way that you do", but I'm not the only one who thought otherwise.

As for my vote on Prims, I wanted to show pressure and seriousness. If I just said that I didn't believe his claim, and did not vote, I would have likely been ignored/overlooked. We were still in RVS for crying out loud. My vote on him was to create reactions. His gameplay following my vote is why I developed a scummy opinion of him.

Because there are three kinds of votes. Votes for scum lynching, votes to prod/create discussion, and rvs. You admitted to voting for me as a prod for discussion. Now you are refusing to understand that I did that too.

So, my vote was to obtain reactions based on his claim. It was not RVS. I'm ticked that it's so hard for some people.to see.

[Grace]

okay I'm super tired right now, I'll address your points properly tomorrow morning (if I don't feel I've addressed them properly now), but here's what my dead brain is coming up with

Manix, do you think my vote on you in unjustified, weak, or both? I personally don't like RVS, and I have yet to see someone break RVS early in a town way. Sure sure it was /implied/ that you meant "breaking rvs in the way that you do", but I'm not the only one who thought otherwise.

I'm sure I've said this before. I feel it's both, because you voted me for only one reason (weak), and on a sketchy reason at that (unjustified).

I know you don't like RVS, you say it every game. And also, look at what I bolded. Wouldn't that make it easier to catch scum should that be the case? I'm not quite seeing how that is useful to want to break it like you do.

And that probably just came down to an interpretation difference; and I clarified what exactly I meant by that when it was mentioned again. So where is this problem?

As for my vote on Prims, I wanted to show pressure and seriousness. If I just said that I didn't believe his claim, and did not vote, I would have likely been ignored/overlooked. We were still in RVS for crying out loud. My vote on him was to create reactions. His gameplay following my vote is why I developed a scummy opinion of him.

The first point is valid, but here lies the problem; we were still in RVS. You specifically chose a non random vote, hence not RVS. >_> I think this is more of a semantics issue though, so.

I can also accept the last points as valid. But a question; what would have changed if you had actually voted randomly? The idea of RVS is to garner reactions from wagons, wouldn't that have also been just as acceptable?

Because there are three kinds of votes. Votes for scum lynching, votes to prod/create discussion, and rvs. You admitted to voting for me as a prod for discussion. Now you are refusing to understand that I did that too.

Fair enough. I would still think that if you thought the claim was BS (which was implied heavily from your first post), wouldn't your vote be partly of the "scum lynching" type of vote? :/

sidenote: note that my vote is no longer a discussion prod vote, it's a "I want to lynch this person" vote. Your later content was not helped your case much at all.

[Aere]

I said you're playing like you normally do, but that does not excuse you being scummy. I merely mentioned your meta, you are still scummy regardless.

[charlie_]

Eli was my strongest scum read, so I voted him. I've been struggling for scum reads af the moment, but I'm thinking Prims and BBM are town. Sorry guys, but I'm really uncertain about anything else right now. I'll have another look when I'm on my comp.

[Bluedoom]

Eli was my strongest scum read, so I voted him. I've been struggling for scum reads af the moment, but I'm thinking Prims and BBM are town. Sorry guys, but I'm really uncertain about anything else right now. I'll have another look when I'm on my comp.

seee, first thing is outing town reads is generally bad and doesn't help town. Second, if you were gonna out town reads, the least you could do was state reasons.

[Prims]

That said, Dark Sage should sub out if he's going to exist less than unicorns.

Remember how Anouleth joined this game? Me neither.

will try to get a post out before tonight

[Elieson]

Good, because I can't either and I'm still confused. Everything Psych does is confusing me.

I agree with Rapier that BBM looks fine for his defense on Shinori. Kirsche is metagaming, and while it may seem valid here, I myself would jump to Shinori's drunken defense. Typos are NOT scummy, and it's happened to me before (claiming iris/eclipse in Paper's last game) so I understand.

Manix is being typical gut-lead Manix, Elie is grasping for straws (#319 and that vague list #306) , I'd rather not lynch Prims today, we'll have time to think about PGO later... Elie is my strongest feel so ##Vote: Elieson though I am thinking he's playing like he plays D1 a lot

Meta and grasping

Well, it wasn't defensive... so yeah. Everything I've said in regards to Psych has just been me being confused because he doesn't make sense.

Elie tends to get votes on him D1 because he sounds scummy. This does not excuse him from sounding scummy, however. I was merely making note of his playstyle (which seems to be the same no matter his alignment anyway).

Meta

I would not call my feelings towards Elie based on gut.

I called both of those posts straw grabbing because 319 felt like an attempt to get the attention off of himself and push it onto his vote, rather than actually voting for a scumread. 306 felt like an excuse to say "hey I've posted reads let's not focus on me".

Grasping.

I said you're playing like you normally do, but that does not excuse you being scummy. I merely mentioned your meta, you are still scummy regardless.

Meta (merely mentioned, right?)

---

Your reasoning on me is shoddy. 319 was a vote because of Manix and I having differing opinions. I feel that RVS ending promptly is more important, because it allows the players to not waste time waiting for someone to react/overreact. Manix believes that you can learn more from that. While both have their benefits, I see voting randomly to fill a wagon and wait for a reaction to be more scummy, as it doesn't move the game forward. It simply forces the game to trudge along until someone /finally/ pops up to say something. That time biding is scummy (in a sense that it's not neutral, and certainly not town) to me, even if it isn't an inheritely scummy action.

So, according to you, I'm scummy because I am me, combined with the fact that I find Manix scummy (thus voted him), and also that I didn't feel the need to out every scumread that I had all in one post. I've since then, outed my scumreads (now I have to split my focus and create and manage 5 cases at once, something I had hoped to do just a few at a time).

Furthermore, I feel as though I've clarified my reasons as to those I consider scum by now.

Perhaps my views on RVS differ from yours as well, but that doesn't make then scummy; that just makes then different.

[charlie_]

seee, first thing is outing town reads is generally bad and doesn't help town. Second, if you were gonna out town reads, the least you could do was state reasons.

Prims was because of his claim, and I haven't really seen much wrong with his posts. BBM is for the Shinori defense that wouldn't have made sense if BBM was scum.

[CT075]

Cam feels to me that he is defending Prims (based on this).

for now i'm defending him yes

You call it a useless lynch. If he was scum, then it would be very useful then to lynch him. The only way it's not a useful lynch is if he is gaurenteed town,

false

and since apparently not even an inspect can prove that, Prims should never be obvtown (on Day, or even D2 imo. On what grounds are you able to infer that Prims (or anyone really) is a useless lynch?

on the grounds that there are people who we gain more info from lynching

Manix, do you think my vote on you in unjustified, weak, or both? I personally don't like RVS, and I have yet to see someone break RVS early in a town way. Sure sure it was /implied/ that you meant "breaking rvs in the way that you do", but I'm not the only one who thought otherwise.

what does this have to do with anything

content leaving my vote where it is

[Elieson]

for now i'm defending him yes

false

on the grounds that there are people who we gain more info from lynching

what does this have to do with anything

content leaving my vote where it is

You are defending a player of unconfirmed aligmment, on Day 1. Ok cool, thanks for clearing that up. It's nice to see that you are basing your entire opinion of his "innocence" on his roleclaim, almost as if you know something, and are trying to cover it up by saying you know he is town, therefore not worth lynching.

My question to Manix was regarding his vote on me. I don't like being voted for, but if I am going to be voted, it should be for an actually good reason, dont you think? I wanted to confirm why Manix voted for me, for both myself and everyone else to see. I was looking for weak knees or inconsistencies. Once again, not that hard to figure out if some thought is invested into it.

[Zkirsche]

Elie, has is not occurred to you that while Prims claiming might not make him town, it doesn't make him scum either. Heck, it doesn't even make him lynch worthy in the slightest so I have no idea while you're still going on about it. Why is it so hard to accept for you that Prims might just be the town PGO, and not defo scum?