So how bad are bows really?

[Snowy_One]

If archers need to join at a high level with competitive base-stats to be worth using there is likely a problem.

Also, like I said, I'm not looking at this from the perspective of tier lists. Tier lists are a part of the game, yes, but they aren't the be-all end-all. Bows are bad in almost every aspect though.

So... How did bows become 'better' in FE12 then?

[Shadow Mir]

If archers need to join at a high level with competitive base-stats to be worth using there is likely a problem.

Also, like I said, I'm not looking at this from the perspective of tier lists. Tier lists are a part of the game, yes, but they aren't the be-all end-all. Bows are bad in almost every aspect though.

So... How did bows become 'better' in FE12 then?

I'd say that as far as FE12 is concerned, it's not so much that bows got better as it is that their biggest competition (javelins and hand axes) got nerfed. Also, with taking a counter carrying a high risk of taking damage... yeah.

[-Cynthia-]

Flier effectiveness is also more important in FE12. The bow using classes tend to have better Tier 2 caps as well which matters in FE12.

[Parrhesia]

If archers need to join at a high level with competitive base-stats to be worth using there is likely a problem.

In fairness, the GBA Archers would be terrible in ANY class, with those bases. Except clerics, I guess.

[Psych]

I usually find Nomads and other units who have two weapons better than Snipers and Archers. The movement and ability to not take counters at times is usually better than archers to me.

Bows in general though usually start on units that have low strength or speed. My mages deal more damage thanks to hitting resistance, or my other units can double.

[Baldrick]

Or Pegasus/Dragon Knights. Most archers actually have alright growths, but they'd never kick in unless you baby them.

[Snowy_One]

In fairness, the GBA Archers would be terrible in ANY class, with those bases. Except clerics, I guess.

But Neimi is so cuuuuute!

[Scarlet]

Neimi actually is an example of a unit that can become pretty decent (in a way) when put up with and trained up all the way to Lv20 before promoting (at which point she can get a mount and swords to allow more flexibility in her usage). It's the terrible bases that drag her down.

It's just that she pretty much cannot get to Lv20 on her own. The player needs to go out of his way to either baby her or spend some time in skirmishes or Valni to train her up, as by the time she reaches Lv20 if you go at a normal speed and do neither of the above, you'll likely already have beaten the game.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Scarlet

[Snowy_One]

I think that's becoming a more standard problem with the games in general. Archers, and ranged units, seem to becoming more of 'chippers' than actual 'killers'. Rolf is, more or less, the same. He can be 'decent' if leveled, but it's getting him there that's the big problem (except he has it even worse than Neimi at base and doesn't promote to a mounted sword-user). It may be that the series, as a whole, needs an entire redesign as to how it functions on the stratigic end of things. Right now mounted units dominate due to high move and good stats, fliers most of all, while units who are flexible but lack offensive power get regulated away. Either enemies need to become stronger so killing becomes a team-effort, or enemies need to become weaker to help out the units who aren't amazing.

[Lord Glenn]

If enemies are made even *weaker* than they already are (for argument's sake, let's go with Normal difficulty for the moment), that still doesn't give an incentive to use weaker units. The stronger, more versatile units (especially mounted ones like Paladins) are just going to even further steamroll the enemies; unless you were already planning on using a bow-user anyway, you still wouldn't have much of any reason to use them over other units (even with increased ranges, I would think).

[Snowy_One]

I wouldn't say as much. If the paladin killed 8 units before and the archer killed 2, but with the weaker units the paladin killed 9 units, but the archer could kill 5, it would be an improvement for the archer and make them more desirable.

Granted it wouldn't make them better, but it would make them more desirable.

[CT075]

if there were infinite enemies that would work

with a limited number then it falls apart

[Refa]

Archers should have more movement stars so they have more of a player phase.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Refa

[Icon of Sin]

But then you'd have to lower their strength growth and give them magic instead.

[Refa]

But then you'd have to lower their strength growth and give them magic instead.

What if the fabled Bright Bow makes an appearance?

[Icon of Sin]

What if the fabled Bright Bow makes an appearance?

With 1-2 range on top of that? Shit, that would make Ronan top tier for 25 uses!

But wait! What if we spend our Hammerne staff on it? Almost one hundred flashy arrows! That's more than Link ever uses in a normal playthrough in any game with light arrows!

[arvilino]

I wouldn't say as much. If the paladin killed 8 units before and the archer killed 2, but with the weaker units the paladin killed 9 units, but the archer could kill 5, it would be an improvement for the archer and make them more desirable.

Granted it wouldn't make them better, but it would make them more desirable.

Imagine Seth vs. Neimi, lets say FE8 enemies got even weaker the number of enemies a Seth with a Javelin could kill would dramatically rise along with the number of enemies he can combat without dying on a single enemy phase. Even if Neimi had the Niddhogg and OHKO the now weaker enemies she's still stuck to 2 range combat, the gap between the the kills would increase.

The only way the Archer could ever close the gap in a situation where enemies are weaker is if most of the enemies became Archers. FE12 Lunatic and Lunatic' are along the right track the enemies are so strong that avoiding a counter is good, Javelins and Hand Axes are weaker, this means in your comparison beyond special circumstances(MU and Palla) the Paladin-Archer/Sniper comparison drops to roughly 1 kill for 1, with a possible 2 for either class in the right circumstances.

[Grace]

Here, let me help you with a reason why 2-3 range is bad

You get pictures for this.

Color Code:

Grey is a wall

Blue is a combat unit that is 6-7HKO'ed or such (the cross indicates the target of attacks)

Yellow is a unit that will be ORKO'ed by any enemy

Pink is an enemy melee unit

Orange is an enemy two range unit

Red is an enemy three range unit

Look at the first picture. If you ignore the 3 range units, the defensive line holds easily (and only takes 4 attacks at worst). Add on the 3 range and you get a bit more than double the exposure in a very defensive position. It also requires you to keep your squishy unit well behind that defensive line (see picture two for a perspective check on that, the squishy is well able to be attacked and killed)

I think this explains enough as to why 2-3 range bows are not a good idea as commonplace.

[鳴美]

1-2 range, -60% accuracy at point blank

That or make bow units not suck.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ilyana

[Vicious Sal]

Make bows 1-2 range and have the archers just smack the enemy with the bow at 1range. Halve MT since it doesn't have any blades or w/e. But it must hurt to get smacked in the face by a big curved stick.

[Snowy_One]

Here, let me help you with a reason why 2-3 range is bad

You get pictures for this.

Color Code:

Grey is a wall

Blue is a combat unit that is 6-7HKO'ed or such (the cross indicates the target of attacks)

Yellow is a unit that will be ORKO'ed by any enemy

Pink is an enemy melee unit

Orange is an enemy two range unit

Red is an enemy three range unit

Look at the first picture. If you ignore the 3 range units, the defensive line holds easily (and only takes 4 attacks at worst). Add on the 3 range and you get a bit more than double the exposure in a very defensive position. It also requires you to keep your squishy unit well behind that defensive line (see picture two for a perspective check on that, the squishy is well able to be attacked and killed)

I think this explains enough as to why 2-3 range bows are not a good idea as commonplace.

First off, aside from defend chapters, there seems to be very little need for defense currently and squishy units even less. Secondly, currently units with 1-2 range weapons are capable of countering near-everything. Adding in 2-3 range units removes this ability as well as provides a unique range for bow-users.

And, as I said in the OP, I want to find a way to fix bow-users that doesn't involve giving them 1-range attacks. I don't deny that it would work, but, in my eyes, any strategy game should be a matter of finding a way of dealing with the various strengths and weaknesses of your units. Bow users have a very obvious weakness in their lack of 1 range attacks/counters but they have a huge lack of advantages since they can only kill on the PP most of the time. Increasing their range gives them a unique field and weakens the strength of 1-2 range weapons without granting them 1-range power as well as provides a distinct niche for archers that units who class into bows (warriors and paladins/nomads) can't access.

I think it's sad that even giving them 100% crit wouldn't really save mono-bow users.

[arvilino]

First off, aside from defend chapters, there seems to be very little need for defense currently and squishy units even less. Secondly, currently units with 1-2 range weapons are capable of countering near-everything. Adding in 2-3 range units removes this ability as well as provides a unique range for bow-users.

And, as I said in the OP, I want to find a way to fix bow-users that doesn't involve giving them 1-range attacks. I don't deny that it would work, but, in my eyes, any strategy game should be a matter of finding a way of dealing with the various strengths and weaknesses of your units. Bow users have a very obvious weakness in their lack of 1 range attacks/counters but they have a huge lack of advantages since they can only kill on the PP most of the time. Increasing their range gives them a unique field and weakens the strength of 1-2 range weapons without granting them 1-range power as well as provides a distinct niche for archers that units who class into bows (warriors and paladins/nomads) can't access.

I think it's sad that even giving them 100% crit wouldn't really save mono-bow users.

You should probably play FE12 on Lunatic mode because Mono bow users are useful without being redundant.

But also if you note Manix's picture again, on the second picture not only would one of the archers attack the healer, all 5 of those enemy Archers would be alive and undamaged during enemy phase unless all 3 of your defending units where also Archers, in which case 3 of the 1-2 and 1 range enemies would not be countered. In those sorts of situations larger groups of enemies with multiple Archers/Snipers with 3 range would be an absolute death trap.

Edited October 3, 2012 by arvilino

[Baldrick]

Here, let me help you with a reason why 2-3 range is bad

There are three things wrong with the diagram.

1) You've chosen a bad place to set your defenses. If you put them two spaces back, you only have to take 7 hits. Furthermore, if you stand two spaces back, there's more room for your ranged units to chip the attacking enemies next turn.

2) The AI can be manipulated. It usually goes for the lowest defense unit, or units that can't counter. So stick an archer that's 2HKO'd above the squishy unit in the first diagram, and one of the archers will go for him. Put other units with 1-range weapons behind the wall as appropriate, so that the ranged units will prioritise attacking them, and so there's no risk of death.

3) Bait and switch is an option. Draw out a few enemies from your squad of 9 with a tank, kill them on the PP, then move to draw the next enemies.

2-3 range is a paradigm shift. You will have to adjust your strategy for it, but isn't that what good Fire Emblems games do? Force you to think about what you're doing and sometimes make you improvise? It's like I said before; if something as mild as one extra range on archers makes you completely unable to cope, then you are not competent at Fire Emblem.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Minor Baldo

[Axie]

Also, that diagram works under the assumption the game will actually throw 5 archers and 4 more melee/2-range enemies on your units at the same time, while you're standing in the middle of a narrow corridor. If all Bows were to have 2-3 range, the game would rarely, if ever, put you in that situation. They already don't do that with Longbow Archers!

Also, what kind of non-flying player unit gets killed by a single enemy Archer, anyway? You know, the enemy unit who's not overly strong or fast and the only one able to reach the yellow squishy unit in Scenario 2 (supposing 2-3 range bows)? Base Sophia/Amelia?? I don't think even staffbots (other than Ellen and her 0 base Def) would die that quickly.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Axie

[Anouleth]

Also, that diagram works under the assumption the game will actually throw 5 archers and 4 more melee/2-range enemies on your units at the same time, while you're standing in the middle of a narrow corridor. If all Bows were to have 2-3 range, the game would rarely, if ever, put you in that situation. They already don't do that with Longbow Archers!

Also, what kind of non-flying player unit gets killed by a single enemy Archer, anyway? You know, the enemy unit who's not overly strong or fast and the only one able to reach the yellow squishy unit in Scenario 2 (supposing 2-3 range bows)? Base Sophia/Amelia?? I don't think even staffbots (other than Ellen and her 0 base Def) would die that quickly.

Ellen is certainly OHKOed by enemies with Hand Axes or Steel Bows in Hard Mode (hell, even Lilina gets OHKOed by them). Staff users in later FEs such as FE10 and FE12 are also frequently OHKOed, or 2HKOed and doubled (for example, Laura is ORKOed by all enemies in her starting chapter, and Micaiah is ORKOed by all enemies except for Bronze Lance Soldiers in 1-2). Some staff users in FE11 would also be ORKOed, I imagine.

I'm sure someone more familiar with FE13 can elaborate, but Liz starts with 4 speed, which gets doubled by virtually everything in the early Lunatic chapters (quite aside from the risk of being OHKOed). Maybe you can fix her by doubling with another unit? I dunno.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Anouleth