Opinion on Knives

[Axie]

It's not complicated, but... elements and actual equipment and such totally deviate from what Fire Emblem is about, in my opinion.

[Anouleth]

You know, if I didn't know better, I would think that Knives were made deliberately weak, as if Thieves aren't supposed to be dedicated combat units!

[Rothene]

Or, just keep Knife Mt low, hit high, crit low and weight low. Then restrict weapon based poison/sleep/berserk/silence ailment inflicting effects to knives. And keep them at 1 range because enemies with 1~2 range 'sleep/berserk' knives might prove too annoying.

[Anouleth]

Or, just keep Knife Mt low, hit high, crit low and weight low. Then restrict weapon based poison/sleep/berserk/silence ailment inflicting effects to knives. And keep them at 1 range because enemies with 1~2 range 'sleep/berserk' knives might prove too annoying.

Why would thieves be attacking you anyway? Thieves usually don't have aggressive AI (quite aside from them being rare enemies).

[Rothene]

Oh, I thought knives were being a utility weapon for everyone.

[Original Alear]

As far as the knives halving defense thing, thieves wouldn't be effective bosskillers anyway.

Because they wouldn't halve THRONE defense.

Throne OP.

knives, bows and strike should make a new triangle (knives>bows>strike>knives)

now you have 3 weapon triangles, and weapon triangle triangle is possible

[spoiler=like this]

I was gonna say this was terrible

until I opened the spoiler.

It's the best thing ever.

And what would it be like if thieves got swords (deccent rank) on promo or something?

as long as you're not getting one shot killed, this kind of "thiefs are weak and can't handle boss damage" idea becomes moot.

Less important, ya, but not moot, insofar as not geting 2-shotted means you can attack and then take a boss's attack, etc.

I already admitted that, for one, and second, the Tellius saga laughs at you on two counts. The issue stems from the fact that there's practically no situation where magic would actually be the superior alternative for a physical unit because most physical units wouldn't have enough mag to be effective with magic.

A few physical units in FE9 can use the magic swords/lances OK, and part of the reason mages in FE10 struggle is that FE10 enemy res is pretty high (don't remember FE9's). And magical weapons are weaker than physical weapons.

Edited October 14, 2012 by L1049

[Ike-Mike]

I'm happy that thieves are back to having swords.

[Shadow Mir]

A few physical units in FE9 can use the magic swords/lances OK, and part of the reason mages in FE10 struggle is that FE10 enemy res is pretty high (don't remember FE9's). And magical weapons are weaker than physical weapons.

As for the magic weapons in PoR, I generally found then all but useless except on very specific characters (and even then, most of those characters who could use them well were usually better off with a physical weapon). The rest is true; in fact that's what I was thinking when I stated that. Incidentally, FE9 enemies tend to have better resistance than those in the preceding games (and magic is more-or-less in the same position that it is in RD; just to put things into perspective, the E rank tomes only have 2-4 mt).

Edited October 14, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Prax]

It's not complicated, but... elements and actual equipment and such totally deviate from what Fire Emblem is about, in my opinion.

Fire emblem already has shields and random equipment, so I am just boosting that aspect.(equipment offers some immunity defense sometimes, but it's mostly an hp boost over max hp in my mind--they are essentially weapons that don't attack and can still break once they run out of hp haha)

It's still all attack triangles and damage calculations.

And how are elements deviating from FE when they have an element triangle and involve people's affinities and all that?

Anyway, you just wait until I somehow make the game! I'll show you all! >__>

Or, just keep Knife Mt low, hit high, crit low and weight low. Then restrict weapon based poison/sleep/berserk/silence ailment inflicting effects to knives. And keep them at 1 range because enemies with 1~2 range 'sleep/berserk' knives might prove too annoying.

Well, were it up to me, only mages that use knives that can do the status effects. lol There MIGHT be a sleep or berserk knives at higher weapon class levels, but only thieves/assassins would be able to use them, and they would be rare.

And only healers can cause sleep, but what are the chances the enemy will make their priest attack with a knife unless the map specifically plans for that?

Light mages will cause confusion with a knife, but what are the chances of the enemy have a bunch of those either?

Your own army on the other hand.. you will need to use such cheap tactics to stay alive~!

Bwaaha~!

Oh, I thought knives were being a utility weapon for everyone.

They are in my game! lol

Edited October 14, 2012 by Prax

[CT075]

you have to actually make the game before we can start worshipping you

[Anouleth]

Fire emblem already has shields and random equipment, so I am just boosting that aspect.(equipment offers some immunity defense sometimes, but it's mostly an hp boost over max hp in my mind--they are essentially weapons that don't attack and can still break once they run out of hp haha)

Fire Emblem does not have shields.

It's still all attack triangles and damage calculations.

And how are elements deviating from FE when they have an element triangle and involve people's affinities and all that?

Yeah, but there's nothing more complicated than that. Elements don't really interact with each other in a significant way, either.

Also, "elemental affinities" are arbitrary. They're more like star signs than actually being associated with classical elements.

They are in my game! lol

calm down, bladehero

[Axie]

Gaiden has shields, but Gaiden also has a completely different weapon/magic/item system, so I still think it's a far cry to include shields and armors and stuff in a modern FE. Actual elemental weaknesses and resistances, other than some kinds of weapon and magic having effectiveness on specific classes (for example, an equipment that makes you take less damage from Wind magic) is also not very FE-esque.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Axie

[Renall]

The thing I was thinking about for a project that will never go anywhere was to give Knives a monopoly on effective weapon variety. Other weapon types would have their gimmicks, but only one or two of them. For example, Axes get the Hammer, but would lose the Poleaxe; Swords might lose the Armorslayer but retain the Wyrmslayer or something.

Knives, however, would have an effective weapon for every single category, and maybe one of the Thief/Assassins would get a skill (or perhaps it'd be a class skill) that auto-equips the appropriate effective weapon against anything attacking them, if applicable and present in their inventory. There'd also be classes for effectiveness that don't presently have them in most FEs, such as Infantry (any foot melee unit that isn't Armored, though perhaps Archers would get their own category) or Mage. So you'd have a Manslayer, a Magebane, a Stiletto, and some anti-horse knife I can't think of a good name for. Other weapon types wouldn't be able to match this versatility. Of course, Thief STR has to be decent and Effective status needs to be robust enough to actually be worth it.

The flipside to this would be what you want your Thief to actually do. They can wield a bandolier of effective knives and be able to reasonably counterattack any enemy no matter what gets thrown at them, but doing so fills up their inventory which makes them less effective at actually stealing.

Then give Assassins the ability to instantly kill any non-Awareness unit they deal effective damage to. Maybe a bit much? I dunno, it sounds fiendishly clever and makes an assassin actually useful.

I also like the idea posted of status infliction. A knife that Poisons, a knife that inflicts Paralysis, even one for Silence. Like stabbin' staffs. Maybe a Warp Knife? ...That'd actually be funny. The Magebane should definitely be 1-2 range, effective on Mages, and inflicts Silence. Put that on a unit with Pass and go Bishop-huntin'.

[Snowy_One]

You know, if I didn't know better, I would think that Knives were made deliberately weak, as if Thieves aren't supposed to be dedicated combat units!

The problem is that they're low MT weapons on units with VERY low STR. In FE9 a Dagger on a 20/20 Volke dealt a whopping 27 damage per hit. Soren dealt 8 damage, Ilyana dealt 15 damage, Tormod 14, and Sothe 21. The sages could very well fail to kill even a 0 DEF enemy (Soren would tink himself) and the thieves would be lucky to tie with an unarmed swordsmaster of similar level.

Sure, they were better-balanced in FE10, but there they were more or less not!sword swords (and the units using them were better).

[RNG Princess]

I like them but they run out too fast and are too expensive. I would like them to continue using knives but make them last a little longer and get buffed.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Maiden_of_Emblem

[Prax]

you have to actually make the game before we can start worshipping you

>___> When an easy-to-handle Fire Emblem maker comes out, I'll get around to it! //procrastinate.

Fire Emblem does not have shields.

Yeah, but there's nothing more complicated than that. Elements don't really interact with each other in a significant way, either.

Also, "elemental affinities" are arbitrary. They're more like star signs than actually being associated with classical elements.

calm down, bladehero

Gaiden has shields, but Gaiden also has a completely different weapon/magic/item system, so I still think it's a far cry to include shields and armors and stuff in a modern FE. Actual elemental weaknesses and resistances, other than some kinds of weapon and magic having effectiveness on specific classes (for example, an equipment that makes you take less damage from Wind magic) is also not very FE-esque.

Fire Emblem has random equipables/items like the Delphi shield to protect fliers against arrow weakness, for example. And also allows for things like barriers or magic water to up defense and resistance. I just want more of that stuff to play with. Not like a full standard RPG helm/chest/bracer/legs thing where all stats are manipulated slightly, but simple stacking of extra HP/def or added immunity to different attack types seems perfectly reasonable.

I want everything to be more significant in the games. I want these things to MATTER. Like if you are too absent-minded to stock up on resistant or effective equipment, too frugal to use your potions, you can expect to be DEAD or to barely scrape by.

Elemental spells should interact more significantly, I think. The fact that wind/fire/thunder spells may as well be the same thing except for accuracy or strength is.. such a letdown. I was at least happy different classes had weaknesses to different elements (fire burns fur, lightning hurts dragons, wind messes feathers). They just need to extend it to different armor types or something. Elemental affinities and biorhythms can be pushed more too. Mages at least, who have more attunement with elements, should be affected more by their affinities, I would think?

And you cannot stop my enthusiasm for knives and mage fighters using them~! STAB EVERYTHING FOREVER!

Edited October 16, 2012 by Prax

[Anouleth]

The problem is that they're low MT weapons on units with VERY low STR. In FE9 a Dagger on a 20/20 Volke dealt a whopping 27 damage per hit. Soren dealt 8 damage, Ilyana dealt 15 damage, Tormod 14, and Sothe 21. The sages could very well fail to kill even a 0 DEF enemy (Soren would tink himself) and the thieves would be lucky to tie with an unarmed swordsmaster of similar level.

IT'S ALMOST AS IF KNIVES WERE MADE DELIBERATELY WEAK, AS IF THIEVES AND MAGES AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE DEDICATED PHYSICAL COMBAT UNITS

[Axie]

I want everything to be more significant in the games. I want these things to MATTER. Like if you are too absent-minded to stock up on resistant or effective equipment, too frugal to use your potions, you can expect to be DEAD or to barely scrape by.

But Fire Emblem is already considered a hard franchise by most casual players or newcomers, this would just make it downright frustrating. Also, the maps and the enemies would have to be totally different for effectiveness/resistance to matter as much as you want them to.

Elemental spells should interact more significantly, I think. The fact that wind/fire/thunder spells may as well be the same thing except for accuracy or strength is.. such a letdown. I was at least happy different classes had weaknesses to different elements (fire burns fur, lightning hurts dragons, wind messes feathers). They just need to extend it to different armor types or something. Elemental affinities and biorhythms can be pushed more too. Mages at least, who have more attunement with elements, should be affected more by their affinities, I would think?

I do think they should make Fire/Thunder/Wind magic be more unique, because the magic triangle doesn't really matter (opposed to the weapon triangle, which matters enough to make weapons unique). However, I also think something like what the Tellius games did is enough. If the game has Laguz, make different schools of magic effective against certain Laguz; if the game has monsters, make different schools of magic effective against certain monsters; but even if all they do is make the magic triangle actually matter, then it's enough IMO. One of the things I like about Fire Emblem is its ability to create difficulty without losing its simplicity. Adding more stuff to it just for the sake of variety makes it more like any other game.

[Momo]

IT'S ALMOST AS IF KNIVES WERE MADE DELIBERATELY WEAK, AS IF THIEVES AND MAGES AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE DEDICATED PHYSICAL COMBAT UNITS

But the question then is why give it to them at all. Why make something that's deliberately useless?

[Shadow Mir]

@Prax: Not only are your ideas incredibly complicated, they would only take away what makes FE unique.

As for my two cents, knives were a nice idea, but poorly executed.

[Rehab]

But the question then is why give it to them at all. Why make something that's deliberately useless?

So you can play the game again and take the right choice

Japanese games

that was a cheap shot, I apologize

Edited October 16, 2012 by Rehab

[dondon151]

But the question then is why give it to them at all. Why make something that's deliberately useless?

because people like to go gaga over shitty decisions

[Anouleth]

But the question then is why give it to them at all. Why make something that's deliberately useless?

I wouldn't say it's useless. Certainly, Volke isn't going to kill entire armies on his own with a Knife, but he can weaken enemies, and when he does so he has a chance to Lethality them so you might get a kill when you do so.

More to the point: why does everything have to be useful? The value that an element brings to a game is not the same thing as the value it brings to an efficient playthrough. Some players quite like using Knives, despite their drawbacks. They like the challenge, or they think it's cool. No different from players choosing to use clearly inferior characters. Some players like to use Myrmidon!Wrys. Some REALLY crazy players even choose to hack the game and reduce everyone's growths to zero!

[CT075]

>___> When an easy-to-handle Fire Emblem maker comes out, I'll get around to it! //procrastinate.

fexp exists

or you can asm shit

[Momo]

I wouldn't say it's useless. Certainly, Volke isn't going to kill entire armies on his own with a Knife, but he can weaken enemies, and when he does so he has a chance to Lethality them so you might get a kill when you do so.

Naw, I'd wager Volke is completely useless in combat. He's really, really bad at it, would there ever be a time his weakening is useful? If so, it'd be really early on.

More to the point: why does everything have to be useful? The value that an element brings to a game is not the same thing as the value it brings to an efficient playthrough. Some players quite like using Knives, despite their drawbacks. They like the challenge, or they think it's cool. No different from players choosing to use clearly inferior characters. Some players like to use Myrmidon!Wrys. Some REALLY crazy players even choose to hack the game and reduce everyone's growths to zero!

In a strategy RPG, everything should have a point.