Opinion on Knives

[Snowy_One]

I wouldn't say it's useless. Certainly, Volke isn't going to kill entire armies on his own with a Knife, but he can weaken enemies, and when he does so he has a chance to Lethality them so you might get a kill when you do so.

More to the point: why does everything have to be useful? The value that an element brings to a game is not the same thing as the value it brings to an efficient playthrough. Some players quite like using Knives, despite their drawbacks. They like the challenge, or they think it's cool. No different from players choosing to use clearly inferior characters. Some players like to use Myrmidon!Wrys. Some REALLY crazy players even choose to hack the game and reduce everyone's growths to zero!

Part of making a good and balanced strategy game is making sure that every choice has a reason to it. Archers, in FE9 may be horrible, but at least you can say that they have the unique advantage of being able to deliver 2-range strong attacks with a chance for critical hits on the PP. Sages may use magic, but giving them a melee weapon could let them fight against units with high RES and low DEF.

The problem is that knives being so... weak... ruins that. As I pointed out units wielding daggers have pathetic damage. That ruins the whole reason as to why someone might want to have a mage melee attack or try to make a thief a combat unit. In the older games if you wanted a thief to fight, they COULD. They might not be as good as dedicated fighters, but they COULD fight and deal damage. Daggers ruined that.

Also, keep in mind that I have those units wielding DAGGERS. The strongest knife besides the stiletto. If they were wielding knives their damage would be even worse.

[Jotari]

In a strategy RPG, everything should have a point.

Except Sanaki's Rudol Gem unless the intended point was to troll the player.

[Snowy_One]

Except Sanaki's Rudol Gem unless the intended point was to troll the player.

I think the intent was to try and balance her out as she is a late-joiner, but they screwed up bigtime with it.

[BrightBow]

I would have figured, that it's there to give Sanaki a chance to survive the physical versions of Ashera's Judgement attack.

Edited October 17, 2012 by BrightBow

[arvilino]

Part of making a good and balanced strategy game is making sure that every choice has a reason to it. Archers, in FE9 may be horrible, but at least you can say that they have the unique advantage of being able to deliver 2-range strong attacks with a chance for critical hits on the PP. Sages may use magic, but giving them a melee weapon could let them fight against units with high RES and low DEF.

The problem is that knives being so... weak... ruins that. As I pointed out units wielding daggers have pathetic damage. That ruins the whole reason as to why someone might want to have a mage melee attack or try to make a thief a combat unit. In the older games if you wanted a thief to fight, they COULD. They might not be as good as dedicated fighters, but they COULD fight and deal damage. Daggers ruined that.

Also, keep in mind that I have those units wielding DAGGERS. The strongest knife besides the stiletto. If they were wielding knives their damage would be even worse.

Thieves were not that bad off with them. Volke had really good Strength and Speed stats and growths and Knives basically meant WTA couldn't be used against him, he can certaintly fight and deal damage.

[Snowy_One]

Thieves were not that bad off with them. Volke had really good Strength and Speed stats and growths and Knives basically meant WTA couldn't be used against him, he can certaintly fight and deal damage.

His max STR is 23. That's not what he hits at 20/20, but rather his hard-cap. To make it worse, his promotion is scripted, so you can't have it happen earlier. He starts with 12 STR and knives have 2 MT making his total MT 14. For comparison, a base-level Mia with an unforged iron sword has only two MT less. Volke has 17-18 STR before promotion meaning Mist with full supports can tie his STR at 20/10 (much easier for her to reach thanks to staff-EXP) before factoring in that Mist with a WTD and an iron sword would have the same damage as a level 20 Volke with a dagger. A maxed out Volke could still be beaten in melee combat by Mist at 20/10 (Hello steel/silver and forges!).

[Prax]

But Fire Emblem is already considered a hard franchise by most casual players or newcomers, this would just make it downright frustrating. Also, the maps and the enemies would have to be totally different for effectiveness/resistance to matter as much as you want them to.

I do think they should make Fire/Thunder/Wind magic be more unique, because the magic triangle doesn't really matter (opposed to the weapon triangle, which matters enough to make weapons unique). However, I also think something like what the Tellius games did is enough. If the game has Laguz, make different schools of magic effective against certain Laguz; if the game has monsters, make different schools of magic effective against certain monsters; but even if all they do is make the magic triangle actually matter, then it's enough IMO. One of the things I like about Fire Emblem is its ability to create difficulty without losing its simplicity. Adding more stuff to it just for the sake of variety makes it more like any other game.

Well, throw in a casual mode that makes it easier an nerfs all enemy stats or something then. I am fine with enemies and maps being somewhat different.

I think FE maps have so far been... bleh. I want terrain to matter a bit more than just adding avoid or being a healing tile and horses can't ride on cliffs.

I mean, I was frustrated with FE5 with all the crazy systems going on (fatigue, muggings, dismounting, healing miss chances etc.), but it's not like I am adding ALL of those things back in. xD

Sure, it's tough to balance depth with streamlined/intuitive design, but I totally think it's doable. FE could deal with another layer of complexity or two. FE's always been a game about strategy and unit/resource management. The fact that some maps can be easily blown through by a stacked lord or something disappoints me. Sure, that's fine for like.. easy-mode, but on normal or hard, it should be impossible. I want to add in gameplay elements/systems so that almost every unit or unit class can really shine in multiple ways, so that your team as a whole have to work together to get through the game.

I like that synergy! In fact, a class combo system might be awesome (similar to FE:A's dual attack / dual guard / double attack, I guess). I am okay with class branching on levelling to a new class tier to allow for management of this a bit, but I don't like constant class swapping like in FE11.

@Prax: Not only are your ideas incredibly complicated, they would only take away what makes FE unique.

As for my two cents, knives were a nice idea, but poorly executed.

I don't think they are that complicated.. >_> But ahhh.. to each their own.

fexp exists

or you can asm shit

IS IT EASY ENOUGH THOUGH?

Will it let me add items like armor and knives that will disarm enemies so thieves can steal their weapons? Basically, I don't want to have to figure out how to code that in myself since I just want to click on checkboxes.. but I will check it out eventually one day! (I have some experience with RPGmakerXP, but the coding/scripting required to make events work and stuff is annoying haha).

What's asm? //ignorant

[CrashGordon94]

IT'S ALMOST AS IF KNIVES WERE MADE DELIBERATELY WEAK, AS IF THIEVES AND MAGES AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE DEDICATED PHYSICAL COMBAT UNITS

AND IT'S ALMOST AS IF PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THAT (Or at least, the extent it's done to)

Besides, many of the more reasonable ideas here would still have Knives be inferior to dedicated weapon-types.

More to the point: why does everything have to be useful? The value that an element brings to a game is not the same thing as the value it brings to an efficient playthrough. Some players quite like using Knives, despite their drawbacks. They like the challenge, or they think it's cool. No different from players choosing to use clearly inferior characters. Some players like to use Myrmidon!Wrys. Some REALLY crazy players even choose to hack the game and reduce everyone's growths to zero!

And yet, people yell at me for wanting to make Jeigans useless later on or dump them...

[CT075]

IS IT EASY ENOUGH THOUGH?

Will it let me add items like armor and knives that will disarm enemies so thieves can steal their weapons? Basically, I don't want to have to figure out how to code that in myself since I just want to click on checkboxes.. but I will check it out eventually one day! (I have some experience with RPGmakerXP, but the coding/scripting required to make events work and stuff is annoying haha).

remind me not to sit on my hands waiting for your masterpiece then

[Anouleth]

Part of making a good and balanced strategy game is making sure that every choice has a reason to it. Archers, in FE9 may be horrible, but at least you can say that they have the unique advantage of being able to deliver 2-range strong attacks with a chance for critical hits on the PP. Sages may use magic, but giving them a melee weapon could let them fight against units with high RES and low DEF.

The problem is that knives being so... weak... ruins that. As I pointed out units wielding daggers have pathetic damage. That ruins the whole reason as to why someone might want to have a mage melee attack or try to make a thief a combat unit. In the older games if you wanted a thief to fight, they COULD. They might not be as good as dedicated fighters, but they COULD fight and deal damage. Daggers ruined that.

Except that Heather and Sothe can fight. They might not be as good as dedicated fighters, but they can fight and deal damage. In fact, Sothe is an excellent damage dealer in FE10, all the way until Part 4. It's not like they're Dancers who are completely unable to attack. Or Mist who is even weaker than any Rogue. Or even Rhys who is impossibly frail and can never ever get attacked. Hell, in terms of combat, Sothe and Heather are amazing if you compare them to a lot of supposedly pure combat units like Lyre and Astrid - characters who, despite their flaws, still see use by some players, who presumably enjoy using them.

Also, keep in mind that I have those units wielding DAGGERS. The strongest knife besides the stiletto.

And the weakest knife besides the Knife.

And, let me point out that in FE10, Knives were almost as strong as Swords. A Silver Knife was actually better than a Silver Sword, except that it couldn't be forged and having a few less uses. In fact, a capped Volke only had two less points of attack than a capped Zihark, both with their best weapons.

[Shadow Mir]

And, let me point out that in FE10, Knives were almost as strong as Swords. A Silver Knife was actually better than a Silver Sword, except that it couldn't be forged and having a few less uses. In fact, a capped Volke only had two less points of attack than a capped Zihark, both with their best weapons.

Actually, a Silver Dagger has the same Mt as a Silver Sword (a Silver Knife only has 7 Mt).

[dondon151]

IS IT EASY ENOUGH THOUGH?

Will it let me add items like armor and knives that will disarm enemies so thieves can steal their weapons? Basically, I don't want to have to figure out how to code that in myself since I just want to click on checkboxes.. but I will check it out eventually one day! (I have some experience with RPGmakerXP, but the coding/scripting required to make events work and stuff is annoying haha).

What's asm? //ignorant

do you honestly think that someone is going to make this for you

let me tell you, i'm pretty good at events and text and just making a chapter takes hours upon hours of work. it's not going to be faster with the program that you described.

[Anouleth]

Actually, a Silver Dagger has the same Mt as a Silver Sword (a Silver Knife only has 7 Mt).

Yeah, I said the wrong thing.

[Snowy_One]

In FE10, however, knives were far more limited in the types of characters who could use them. As I recall only Volke, Heather, and Sothe could even wield knives in FE10. And as you pointed out their MT was pretty similar to swords. So... Why even have them? Throwing knives over wind swords, sure, but the base weapon was the same.

[Byte2222]

What's asm? //ignorant

ASM is short for assembly language: a low-level programming language used by game modders to make moderate-to-advanced changes to the game. In layman's terms, it's the way hackers tell the game what they want to change. The "low-level" bit means that it's a language more suited to computers and moving data around in hardware (or emulated hardware) and less suited to humans and their weird, inexact ways of communicating. Assembly language is hard to learn and understand, most ROM-hackers here on SF only have a basic understanding of assembly, but you need to learn it to make any changes more complicated than swapping items around or fiddling with numbers.

I think what I've said is accurate

OT: I always like more types of stuff to play around with but knives have seemed redundant, especially in FE10 where they were basically swords but not as good. My favourite idea for fixing them that's been suggested here is that they halve enemy defence, that way they have a niche but aren't too overpowered, especially if Thief str is kept low. I was also surprised in FE10 that their crit was so low, it would be a good stat for Thieves and would basically make them exaggerated Myrmidons: reliant on criticals for any decent level of damage but more likely to get them.

[Anouleth]

OT: I always like more types of stuff to play around with but knives have seemed redundant, especially in FE10 where they were basically swords but not as good. My favourite idea for fixing them that's been suggested here is that they halve enemy defence, that way they have a niche but aren't too overpowered, especially if Thief str is kept low. I was also surprised in FE10 that their crit was so low, it would be a good stat for Thieves and would basically make them exaggerated Myrmidons: reliant on criticals for any decent level of damage but more likely to get them.

Except that Knives do have crit on them? Aside from the 1-2 range Knives and the Bronze Dagger, every single Knife in FE10 has +critical.

In FE10, however, knives were far more limited in the types of characters who could use them. As I recall only Volke, Heather, and Sothe could even wield knives in FE10. And as you pointed out their MT was pretty similar to swords. So... Why even have them? Throwing knives over wind swords, sure, but the base weapon was the same.

The difference between Knives and Swords in FE10 is a lot bigger than the difference between say, Lances and Axes in FE10. Knives have crit, forgeable 2-range, an anti-beast weapon, and generally better accuracy, while Swords have anti-dragon weapons, a stronger SS weapon, forgeable 1 range weapons, Blades subtype, a Brave weapon, and more Prf weapons.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Anouleth

[Byte2222]

Except that Knives do have crit on them? Aside from the 1-2 range Knives and the Bronze Dagger, every single Knife in FE10 has +critical.

Okay, you're right, but it's +5 crit which IMO doesn't make up for the might, hit and durability loss compared to swords. I was just thinking... maybe a little more?

[Shadow Mir]

Except that Knives do have crit on them? Aside from the 1-2 range Knives and the Bronze Dagger, every single Knife in FE10 has +critical.

The difference between Knives and Swords in FE10 is a lot bigger than the difference between say, Lances and Axes in FE10. Knives have crit, forgeable 2-range, an anti-beast weapon, and generally better accuracy, while Swords have anti-dragon weapons, a stronger SS weapon, forgeable 1 range weapons, Blades subtype, a Brave weapon, and more Prf weapons.

True, though the crit was generally hardly worth mentioning considering enemy luck actually didn't suck. And for that matter, the better accuracy isn't all that noticeable.

[CT075]

most ROM-hackers here on SF only have a basic understanding of assembly, but you need to learn it to make any changes more complicated than swapping items around or fiddling with numbers.

i was almost insulted until i read the word 'most'

Edited October 19, 2012 by CT075

[Original Alear]

But the question then is why give it to them at all. Why make something that's deliberately useless?

Probably for the extremely amazing sage knife criticals.

Sits on his hands and waits for Prax's masterpiece.

Edited October 19, 2012 by L1049

[Anouleth]

Even without assembly, impressive things are possible. IIRC, Arch's hack only needed assembly to replicate FE5 FoW.

[arvilino]

His max STR is 23. That's not what he hits at 20/20, but rather his hard-cap. To make it worse, his promotion is scripted, so you can't have it happen earlier. He starts with 12 STR and knives have 2 MT making his total MT 14. For comparison, a base-level Mia with an unforged iron sword has only two MT less. Volke has 17-18 STR before promotion meaning Mist with full supports can tie his STR at 20/10 (much easier for her to reach thanks to staff-EXP) before factoring in that Mist with a WTD and an iron sword would have the same damage as a level 20 Volke with a dagger. A maxed out Volke could still be beaten in melee combat by Mist at 20/10 (Hello steel/silver and forges!).

But you'd have to agree he's still dealing damage. It's sort of a Jeigan sort of situation where his combat peters off in comparison to other units, except thieves like Volke can steal weapons and items, open chests, open doors, has enough speed to double enemies other units cant so does well against low defense enemies.

Volke already has unique niches so combat forever on par or even close to Myrmidons or characters with several levels, WEXP, supports and gold pumped into forges would make him better off fielding every time than your Myrmidons/Swordmasters. It's like Julian in FE12 H3, it's unlikely he'll ever get out of E-rank swords and any EXP and deals awful damage, but he can be worth fielding over stronger characters in chapters with chests because of his use as a Thief.

It's a similar deal with Sages, even the ones stuck with them(Calil,Basitian) still have Magic. The situations where Knives/Daggers/Stillettos would be used are less frequent(enemy Bishops) but it still has applications(less than staves but still) and when it doesn't apply they still have Tomes.

[Snowy_One]

It's not a Jiegan situation unless you consider the two to three chapters where his high STR is enough to carry him enough to be a 'Jiegan'. Here is the thing. If you are using Mia, she won't be base level by the time Volke joins. Before long she'll likely have a forge or steel weapon too. Volke will have to wait until chapter 15 to be able to buy daggers at which point Mia should have an iron blade or steel sword.

Mia isn't even the strongest of the GM's. I've seen several debaters consider her the weakest. Units like Ike and Boyd will be dealing a lot more damage than Volke as well. He's not a Jiegan. He's a SM without weapons. Maybe if he had swords he could have been a good fighter.

[BrightBow]

Okay, I still don't get it.

Why does a thief even need to compete with a fighter?

He is supposed to steal, open locks, lower bridges and and all that stuff. Fighting is just a bonus.

Volke only competes with Sothe. Mia competes with everyone else.

Honestly, it needs to stop that a units value is solely depending on their ability to kill an enemy in one turn.

What's the point of even having classes, when they all do the exact same thing?

And it would be pretty pathetic, if even the iconic utility class needs to have just as powerful combat abilities as any other class.

If that utility is not enough, then the last thing that should be done is to make thieves more powerful.

Instead they should get more abilities or more opportunities to use them.

Also, what's with all the talk about forges? They don't exactly exist in a limitless supply.

[Sasori]

Knives really sucked in Por, but I did't have much problems with them in Radiant dawn.

But perhaps they could give it a bonus in the future. More damage when attacking a unit from behind maybe?