I write better than I speak.

[Rewjeo]

For the first one, a comma denotes information that is informative but not necessary to the sentence. The meaning of the sentence doesn't change if it's "I danced with the strippers" or "I danced with the strippers, George Bush and Barack Obama."

But it does. If the strippers were named George Bush and Barack Obama, there would be no comma in that sentence.

There's also the possibility that it's a direct address, which leads to the eggs, toast, and orange juice example. There is literally no way "I had eggs and toast and orange juice" could lead to the second picture because it's a direct address, and direct addresses require commas. Just ask Grandpa in this example:

We ate, Grandpa. (Telling Grandpa the speaker and someone else ate.)

We ate Grandpa. (The speaker and someone else ate Grandpa.)

"I had eggs and toast and orange juice" would lead to the second picture because it's a list of two objects, which are in this case eggs and toast-and-OJ. The lack of commas in the list means that the list only has two objects. Take an example like peanut butter and jelly. That's something that is commonly used as a single object despite having an "and" in it. If the sentence was "I had milk, peanut butter and jelly" you can tell that the person had three different things while in "I had milk and peanut butter and jelly" the person only has two things, one of which is PB&J.

The main reason that "I had eggs, toast and orange juice" isn't ambiguous, though, is that there is only one "and." The comma does tell you that the list has three+ objects, as well, but even in the case of "I had ham, eggs, toast and orange juice" you couldn't have toast-and-OJ as one object because there is no and preceding it. The sentence would be grammatically incorrect if you meant toast and OJ as one object there. If they meant that, it would be the same as saying "In my room, there is a chair, bed, desk."

That Grandpa thing isn't related to the Oxford Comma, just reminding people that commas are important to use in general.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Rewjeo

[Thor Odinson]

I think I just stopped giving a crap about English grammar after a while since it's so unnecessarily convoluted.

I just hate English ok

[Original Alear]

As far as the stuttering goes: when people asked me stuff about books I was reading in my spare time when I was younger, I'd also fail to speak coherently (usually). The best solution for me was just, not talk for 20 seconds while I thought of a basic summary. Hold up one finger - don't even bother asking for time, just make it clear that you're going to take time before you speak if they want an answer.

And if you give a short answer and they want to know more and you're not interested in a conversation because you're reading the book at that moment and are having a grand time, tell them as much politely.

There's the boorish advice columnist digest!

I danced with the strippers, George Bush and Barack Obama.

I danced with the strippers, George Bush, and Barack Obama.

Without the second comma, you are implying George Bush and Barack Obama are strippers.

No. Both sentences imply that George Bush and Barack Obama are not strippers.

"I danced with the strippers." That's all you have to say. It's bad form to give out a stripper's real name on SF, IMO, especially if they have a high-profile life off the stage. I would assume that no member here would be so uncouth; therefore, any sentences that appear to claim that either Bush or Obama are strippers are assumed to be the result of grammar irregularities.

I do understand the importance of the oxford comma, but realistically, the confusion that results is rarely - in writing - a bad thing.

^Google Purdue OWL. It'll answer pretty much any grammatical questions you might have.

DUDE thaat is also like, my fave (but really I only used it for MLA D: ).

I think I just stopped giving a crap about English grammar after a while since it's so unnecessarily convoluted.

I just hate English ok

Tbh, I love english, and what is bolded above is probably correct.

[bottlegnomes]

Rewjeo, please just stop. You don't know what you're talking about. The latter sentence, "I danced with the strippers, George Bush and Barack Obama," can be direct address because you could be addressing those two people jointly. It can also be additional information, as in the example because the information doesn't change. The essence of the sentence, dancing with strippers, doesn't change; you're just giving more information.

I would agree with you, Lumi, but for me it does matter, as it's important to my major. But, yeah. For most people, it doesn't matter much.

Also, Mouse, you win the internet for so many reasons. Here's some cookies to to thank you for that wonderful post. (::)(::)(::)(::)(::)

[Original Alear]

Also, Mouse, you win the internet for so many reasons. Here's some cookies to to thank you for that wonderful post. (::)(::)(::)(::)(::)

Mythanks...tomorrow, perhaps real cookies.

(well, today afternoon)

[Rewjeo]

Rewjeo, please just stop. You don't know what you're talking about. The latter sentence, "I danced with the strippers, George Bush and Barack Obama," can be direct address because you could be addressing those two people jointly. It can also be additional information, as in the example because the information doesn't change. The essence of the sentence, dancing with strippers, doesn't change; you're just giving more information.

I never said that it couldn't be a direct address. What I said is that the comma changes the meaning and then explained how the OJ example is not ambiguous regarding whether or not the toast and orange juice are together.

A direct address is when someone is directly addressed. While the stripper one could be a direct address, I don't see how the orange juice one is, just based on logic, and it absolutely isn't if you don't have any commas in there at all. In any case, there will be no ambiguity within context, too. If someone is talking to Bush and Obama, then they wouldn't be talking about them in third person, and if someone isn't addressing them, then clearly it isn't a direct address. Same thing if someone is talking to orange juice and toast or is not talking to orange juice and toast. I suppose you could concoct a specific scenario in which that is confusing, but writing something in which it is unclear whether or not a character is talking about or to orange juice and toast within a whole conversation seems hard and absurd.

That additional information doesn't warrant the use of a comma, at least not that I have ever learned. "I danced with the stripper, George Bush" is clearly a direct address, while "I danced with the stripper George Bush" is clearly stating that the stripper is George Bush. Same thing with "George Bush and Barack Obama" instead of just "George Bush." But if this is part of your major, then maybe I'm wrong. I generally trust my education, though.

[Agro]

ITT everyone has social anxiety

[Freohr Datia]

I would think that if anyone out there has to report their studies, or submit essays for college applications or for a job, then knowing grammar would matter. I don't know personally how many grammar mistakes it would take to get turned down for an application or not get taken seriously when submitting a report, whether it be one or more, but I am at least sure that if you don't know grammar that well then it can come to be a huge turnoff. It makes you look less professional x3 So I think it makes an impact, if at least a little, to more than just specific majors.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Freohr Datia

[Thor Odinson]

Why can't we all just use a language that isn't utter crap at making sense like Chinese

I can't deal with the irregularities and the amount of bullshit English has. It's kinda not my native language :B

Most of my knowledge of English grammar actually came from translating Latin since we'd get points off if we translate to the wrong form (ex. who vs whom), though.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Zhuge Liang

[Original Alear]

ITT everyone has social anxiety

Probably true.

I would think that if anyone out there has to report their studies, or submit essays for college applications or for a job, then knowing grammar would matter. I don't know personally how many grammar mistakes it would take to get turned down for an application or not get taken seriously when submitting a report, whether it be one or more, but I am at least sure that if you don't know grammar that well then it can come to be a huge turnoff. It makes you look less professional x3 So I think it makes an impact, if at least a little, to more than just specific majors.

What it really comes down to in my POV is, "if I'm being hired or denied on the basis of my opinion on the Oxford Comma controversy, isn't it likely I can get hired or accepted somewhere else?" And, "if I really care about getting into a particular school, or a "tier" of schools that are particularly competitive, shouldn't I be working on my GPA, my SATs, my extracurriculars, etc?"

As for reporting work, I don't think the Oxford comma is going to matter much in college except for particular teachers - and you'll become aware of their obsessive approach to grammar by the first time they grade one of your papers, if not earlier. At these points, it isn't about understanding proper english, but understanding the teacher's perspective on proper english - whether they are correct or not.

[nflchamp]

Comma belongs between "happening in print" and "but"

For the record, there should be a period after print. Get rid of "but" entirely and capitalize the next word to get rid of the run-on sentence. I'd also suggest changing the comma that's already there to hyphen and insert an "I" afterwards to get a proper second sentence.

[bottlegnomes]

I never said that it couldn't be a direct address. What I said is that the comma changes the meaning and then explained how the OJ example is not ambiguous regarding whether or not the toast and orange juice are together.

A direct address is when someone is directly addressed. While the stripper one could be a direct address, I don't see how the orange juice one is, just based on logic, and it absolutely isn't if you don't have any commas in there at all. In any case, there will be no ambiguity within context, too. If someone is talking to Bush and Obama, then they wouldn't be talking about them in third person, and if someone isn't addressing them, then clearly it isn't a direct address. Same thing if someone is talking to orange juice and toast or is not talking to orange juice and toast. I suppose you could concoct a specific scenario in which that is confusing, but writing something in which it is unclear whether or not a character is talking about or to orange juice and toast within a whole conversation seems hard and absurd.

That additional information doesn't warrant the use of a comma, at least not that I have ever learned. "I danced with the stripper, George Bush" is clearly a direct address, while "I danced with the stripper George Bush" is clearly stating that the stripper is George Bush. Same thing with "George Bush and Barack Obama" instead of just "George Bush." But if this is part of your major, then maybe I'm wrong. I generally trust my education, though.

The OJ one is supposed to be ridiculous. Otherwise, it wouldn't be funny, which is the point. An example of that that could actually happen is "I went to the movies with Nancy, Joe, and Mary." If it was "I went to the movies with Nancy, Joe and Mary," then there could be some confusion. But yeah, logically, people wouldn't ever assume you're talking to toast and OJ, but again, if it made sense, it wouldn't be funny.

The issue I have isn't so much that you're saying the comma doesn't have to be there; it's that you're saying the comma can't be there. I can see why you're saying it, but here's another example that might clarify things: "I danced with Margaret, the stripper" or "I danced with Margaret the stripper." Same principle, just phrased differently. There it doesn't really matter if the comma is there or not. I'd lean towards the comma, because if someone says the sentence, there's probably going to be a brief pause between "Margaret" and "the stripper," which a comma denotes.

Okay. I think I get what you mean by the third person thing. It's that in context it wouldn't be ambiguous. That's true probably 99% of the time in good writing. But here's a situation where there could be some confusion:

Steve is sitting in the room with Mary, Dave, and Billy. No one's really paying attention to each other. Steve says, "I went to the moves with Joe, Mary and Dave."

Is he telling Mary and Dave he went to the movies with Joe, or is he telling Billy he went to the movies with Joe, Mary, and Dave?

Granted it's pretty crappy context (and writing), and there are plenty of ways to avoid this confusion without using an Oxford comma, but it's an example.

I would think that if anyone out there has to report their studies, or submit essays for college applications or for a job, then knowing grammar would matter. I don't know personally how many grammar mistakes it would take to get turned down for an application or not get taken seriously when submitting a report, whether it be one or more, but I am at least sure that if you don't know grammar that well then it can come to be a huge turnoff. It makes you look less professional x3 So I think it makes an impact, if at least a little, to more than just specific majors.

Probably true.

What it really comes down to in my POV is, "if I'm being hired or denied on the basis of my opinion on the Oxford Comma controversy, isn't it likely I can get hired or accepted somewhere else?" And, "if I really care about getting into a particular school, or a "tier" of schools that are particularly competitive, shouldn't I be working on my GPA, my SATs, my extracurriculars, etc?"

As for reporting work, I don't think the Oxford comma is going to matter much in college except for particular teachers - and you'll become aware of their obsessive approach to grammar by the first time they grade one of your papers, if not earlier. At these points, it isn't about understanding proper english, but understanding the teacher's perspective on proper english - whether they are correct or not.

I kind of want to actually buy and mail you a pack of cookies.

Freohr Datia, like Mouse said, it doesn't come up much, like most colleges won't particularly care. If your writing is really sloppy, it'll look bad, but things like whether or not you use an Oxford comma will rarely, if ever, matter, as both methods are acceptable. In certain instances, like for me, minor stuff can matter. I'm a creative writing major, and a couple things editors hate are when people use ok instead of O.K. or okay and alright instead of all right. So if I were trying to get a piece published and had some of those errors, they'd probably throw the piece out, since it "shows I don't respect the English language" (we're a pretentious bunch) and there are plenty of writers who are as good or better than I am and don't do things like that.

For the record, there should be a period after print. Get rid of "but" entirely and capitalize the next word to get rid of the run-on sentence. I'd also suggest changing the comma that's already there to hyphen and insert an "I" afterwards to get a proper second sentence.

I'd actually disagree with all of those.

Edited December 7, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Life]

I danced with the strippers, George Bush and Barack Obama.

I danced with the strippers, George Bush, and Barack Obama.

Without the second comma, you are implying George Bush and Barack Obama are strippers.

That's why you would place a colon instead of a comma if you were trying to imply that Bush and Obama are strippers.

The first sentence doesn't imply anything. Anyone who gets confused by ambiguity off of it is a retard in my opinion.

EDIT: I'm the same way in Hebrew. I learned how to read and write for 12 years before actually speaking the language. Been speaking for... 2 years now? And my Hebrew is still shit.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Am Yisrael Chai

[nflchamp]

I'd actually disagree with all of those.

And I disagree with almost the entire paragraph above my quote in your post.

[Original Alear]

I kind of want to actually buy and mail you a pack of cookies.

I will give you my address on the condition (i.e. nonbinding written statement here) that it will only be used to mail one package of unadulterated cookies, but I can bake really good cookies on my own so

I AM A STRONG, BEAUTIFUL, WHITE MOUSE

[the hair is largely not white]

THAT DON'T NEED NO SANTA CLAUS

I'm a creative writing major, and a couple things editors hate are when people use ok instead of O.K. or okay and alright instead of all right. So if I were trying to get a piece published and had some of those errors, they'd probably throw the piece out, since it "shows I don't respect the English language" (we're a pretentious bunch) and there are plenty of writers who are as good or better than I am and don't do things like that.

theenglishlanguageisastrongbeautifullanguagethatdontneedknoweditation

[Emeraldfox]

This topic has entertained me.

I don't know how well I speak or write since I don't care.

[bottlegnomes]

That's why you would place a colon instead of a comma if you were trying to imply that Bush and Obama are strippers.

Either way is acceptable.

The first sentence doesn't imply anything. Anyone who gets confused by ambiguity off of it is a retard in my opinion.

That seems a little harsh. Then again, I'm one to talk, what with me having started this entire thing.

And I disagree with almost the entire paragraph above my quote in your post.

Good for you. Like what in particular? Or are you just being contrary for the sake of being contrary?

I will give you my address on the condition (i.e. nonbinding written statement here) that it will only be used to mail one package of unadulterated cookies, but I can bake really good cookies on my own so

I will legitimately do it. I've done crazier things.

I AM A STRONG, BEAUTIFUL, WHITE MOUSE

[the hair is largely not white]

THAT DON'T NEED NO SANTA CLAUS

This raises a completely off topic question: do white mice have actually white fur, or are they like polar bears where the fur is actually clear?

theenglishlanguageisastrongbeautifullanguagethatdontneedknoweditation

I approve of this.

[nflchamp]

Well, since you ask:

Freohr Datia, like Mouse said, it doesn't come up much, like most colleges won't particularly care.

This is a terrible sentence, most notably because of the redundancy. Just end it at "much" and put the rest of it in the next sentence. Speaking of...

If your writing is really sloppy, it'll look bad, but things like whether or not you use an Oxford comma will rarely, if ever, matter, as both methods are acceptable.

This is already a terrible run-on. Combining "most colleges won't particularly care" and "If your writing is really sloppy, it'll look bad" and ending the sentence will not only break up this run-on sentence, but put two things that go together together. 'Most colleges won't particularly care unless your writing is really sloppy' further explains "it doesn't come up much" of the previous sentence. The latter half of this sentence can be worked with the next sentence as to not be redundant.

In certain instances, like for me, minor stuff can matter.

Here you can mention how the Oxford comma is really a minor issue and only comes up in specific instances.

I'm a creative writing major, and a couple things editors hate are when people use ok instead of O.K. or okay and alright instead of all right. So if I were trying to get a piece published and had some of those errors, they'd probably throw the piece out, since it "shows I don't respect the English language" (we're a pretentious bunch) and there are plenty of writers who are as good or better than I am and don't do things like that.

This is great and all, but you're on a tangent. Further comments on where using an Oxford comma, or not using an Oxford comma, would find complaints would be more appropriate. Though, to make sure I'm being thorough, I'll point out how your last sentence is another run-on. You should split it at "out.

[bottlegnomes]

So you are being contrary to be contrary, as none of your points actually disagree with anything I said. Far as I can tell, you're just trying to prove some point, like you know know what's being discussed better than I do. BTW, if that's what you were trying to do, you failed.

Edited December 12, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[MacLovin]

I speak better than I write.

And I wonder why people have trouble with public speaking.

[Lord Raven]

Because they always go into it unprepared or lack self-confidence. Often times both.

[dondon151]

i highly doubt that sharpoon has consummate public speaking abilities

it is very different from casual conversation because of the taboo on filler words

[Gold Vanguard]

1355311533[/url]' post='2213563']

I speak better than I write.

And I wonder why people have trouble with public speaking.

Stage fright?