Pokemon Adventures R/B/G/Y Mafia

[Elieson]

You silenced bal? After he claimed kill-seeking cop?

What if he had results?

[Kay]

My thoughts and my gut are two separate entities, each based on logic and intuition, respectively. I don't think Paper has done anything bad enough to deserve a vote., but aside from intuition (which can change on a whim), I don't think he's clear from any suspicion. Hence Null.

You're saying here that intuition is pretty unimportant. Compared to when you were trying to teach JB to play mafia, here:

By searching for scumtells, poor scumhunting, bad tone, looking for liars, analyzing votecounts, and, most importantly, using your gut!

Naturally, experience helps!

Unless you're joking. I don't claim to be GOOD at Mafia, just "not bad" at Mafia. Otherwise I'd live longer.

Not being super obvious obvtown keeps you in the game longer. Better players can forego tone altogether and make themselves generally unreadable as town or scum.

Bold added by me. If using your gut is most important, why do you only have a nulltell on Paper?

Speculation is bad because it's based on things which may or may not be real (hence the term) and in general probably a waste of time. If I said you were scumbuddies with, say, Strawman, that's going to be mostly unfounded unless one of you two actually flips scum.

I'd rather focus on tangible reasons to vote for people, like scumtells or poor/lack of scumhunting.

"Like scumtells"? What makes something a scumtell? How are you defining "scumtells"?

I don't mean speculation like "gee, what if absolutely-random-players A and B are scumbuddies". I mean speculation like "would player X have any good reason to do that as town, and would he have any good reason to do it as scum". Do you think that is a waste of time, or intangible, or whatever?

This feels like an attempt to discredit other people's cases, really, while making yourself look better because your scumreads are based on "tangible reasons" and "things that are real".

Kay, scorri, Boron: this my sound a bit hypocritical but post more pls, can't read anything from their, like, 5 posts total. Is it still finals season? I think that would explain a little.

WREN: good lord make a second post. Given the fact that he's barely said anything else though, it's making me think he's town in a weird sort of way?

Elieson, Shinori: Defensive as fuuuck. Slight scum vibes.

Neko: Seems a little waffly on Paperblade opinion, and pretty earnest in his defense of WREN (though I agree with the general sentiment). Null read.

Mancer: Getting confused noobtown vibes, but this isn't very strong and he could just as easily be noobscum.

Everyone else is pretty much a null read.

I dislike throwing a pressure vote so late in the phase, but I don't think Elie, Mancer nor WREN are worth lynching based on the information they've given, so to move on to the next best thing.

##Unvote (though I thought I unvoted the last time, whatever)

##Vote Boron

Dear, you've made, like, 2 posts.

What's your reason for taking your vote off of Shinori? You seem more suspicious of him than Boron. You say Eli isn't worth lynching, but you put Shinori in the same category as him and gave no explanation for why he's not a good lynch.

Elieson, of course

I think Elieson may be a better lynch. I'd probably have WREN as a second or third option at this point. I need to reread some.

You think that "of course" Elieson is a good lynch, but you also think he "may" be a better lynch, and you're gonna add that you need to reread? Looks too much like a "if he's lynched and flips town, don't look at me, I wasn't sure about that anyway" disclaimer.

I guess the "of course" could be that it should be a reasonable assumption since your vote was on him, but still.

Mancer is also right that I really need to scumhunt more. I haven't much in the way of clarity to detect scum and I need to work on that. I have a feeling this isn't oing to be one of my better games.

Another "don't hold me accountable for my reads" post.

##Unvote

Not sure why people are taking the Boron vote suspiciously just because scorri's also absent - If 3 people are inactive I'm going to vote one of them as a pressure vote, and it also happens that I'm in like 3 different skype group chats with Boron so I know if she's alive or not. Also, 33% chance.

I'm still not comfortable with a Wren lynch, and gut kind of tells me Mancer is town. Maybe I'll get more comfortable with a Wren lynch IF HE POSTS I CAN SEE YOU IN THE USERS READING THE TOPIC

You keep repeating that 33% chance thing. Are you just meaning that everyone in that category is equally scummy to you, or do you think it's probable that one is scum?

You silenced bal? After he claimed kill-seeking cop?

What if he had results?

I don't think Shinori is claiming Silencer? Just speculating about flavor. Which is kinda useless but it's at least better than basically claiming mafia silencer.

##Vote: NekoRex to get stuff started so that mess doesn't get repeated. See my arguments against his D1 posts.

[Jaybee]

What's your reason for taking your vote off of Shinori? You seem more suspicious of him than Boron. You say Eli isn't worth lynching, but you put Shinori in the same category as him and gave no explanation for why he's not a good lynch.

The initial vote for Shinori was because he said something along the lines of Mancer's initial vote on me being a serious vote, and I wanted him to elaborate. When I made the list of reads, Elie hadn't posted since his huge defense in #147, and Shinori had thrown a small tantrum over getting voted in #129, thus the defensive, scum feeling I got from them.

I took my vote off Shinori because nobody was thinking of pointing a lynch his way, and everything was on Elie/Wren/Baldrick - Why waste my vote on Shinori? Furthermore, if you look at the posts he's made, he hasn't actually said a lot - One overreaction, and a lot of echoes. He's talked to, uh, me and Helios. How much does that tell you?

You keep repeating that 33% chance thing. Are you just meaning that everyone in that category is equally scummy to you, or do you think it's probable that one is scum?

All 3 of you were kinda inactive, so I threw a vote on to Boron because I didn't want to lynch Elie/Wren/Baldrick, and the only other thing I could do was to get one of you to respond. You can sub Boron for Scorri or yourself, the aim was always the same.

Also, I never said that any of the 3 of you were scummy, I said you were inactive. I wonder how you got the idea that I thought you all were scummy into your head...?

[Sunwoo]

First things first, something I have to get out of my system.

I am pretty much 100% sure it's too late to even bother but, here I am, writing a post to you all, because mods kept bugging me to do so.

This attitude is pretty much horrible. We've all seen you lurking and reading the thread between the time you made this post and the one before it. Why not pop in and say something? You signed up for this game. We expect you to COMMIT to it. We expect you to SAY stuff, ESPECIALLY when pretty much the entire game is bugging you for a post. If you're going to continue playing this way, then please ... sub out or something.

Okay, so ... after the way D1 ended I don't think I'm going to get too much information from stuff that happened near the end of the phase, where we were all scrambling around trying to prevent a universal loss.

Reading back on D1, I can understand Kay's case on NekoRex. Not only did he keep saying Paperblade was a null read, but he also seemed to consider everyone else aside from Elieson and Baldrick (and Wren, to an extent, and later Mancer) null or did not mention them at all. His argument with Helios didn't bother me alone, but his general play is bothering me after an initial reread. I'll have to reread that argument.

Shinori, I originally felt good about, but after looking through D1 ... he didn't do nearly as much as I thought he did. He talked about Mancer and Wren and Shatter, but not much about anyone else. Also, he seemed a little defensive over those early votes on him. Would be interested in hearing more from you.

Also, this is a heads-up. I will not be around for a significant part of tomorrow. Hanging out with friends.

[Helios]

LT Surge for silencer yo. Calling that right now.

Are you claiming that or are you just calling it based off flavor?

I'll post actual content later when it's not 3 AM and falling asleep. What I'm curious about though is how were there 2 deaths (assuming Paper is also dead)?

Also can someone analyze the Elieson wagon while I'm asleep? If not I'll just do it myself when I wake up. Night everyone!

[Sunwoo]

I SEE YOU THERE DONDON.

Anyway, I'm going to bed soon.

[Jaybee]

Paper is either kidnapped or janned, I think. Doubt the latter is true, because I would think BBM would tell us if he were dead. Not impossible though.

[BBM]

Oh yeah, I forgot to pass along that Baldrick said he'd be inactive for a while at the beginning of the phase. But he can't really talk anyways, so shrug.

[NekoRex]

I feel asleep around the end of the phase, so I missed pretty much everything that happened.

I need to reread

[Kay]

Paper is either kidnapped or janned, I think. Doubt the latter is true, because I would think BBM would tell us if he were dead. Not impossible though.

Doesn't being listed under "Dead Players" in the OP count as BBM telling us he's dead?

The initial vote for Shinori was because he said something along the lines of Mancer's initial vote on me being a serious vote, and I wanted him to elaborate. When I made the list of reads, Elie hadn't posted since his huge defense in #147, and Shinori had thrown a small tantrum over getting voted in #129, thus the defensive, scum feeling I got from them.

I took my vote off Shinori because nobody was thinking of pointing a lynch his way, and everything was on Elie/Wren/Baldrick - Why waste my vote on Shinori? Furthermore, if you look at the posts he's made, he hasn't actually said a lot - One overreaction, and a lot of echoes. He's talked to, uh, me and Helios. How much does that tell you?

All 3 of you were kinda inactive, so I threw a vote on to Boron because I didn't want to lynch Elie/Wren/Baldrick, and the only other thing I could do was to get one of you to respond. You can sub Boron for Scorri or yourself, the aim was always the same.

Also, I never said that any of the 3 of you were scummy, I said you were inactive. I wonder how you got the idea that I thought you all were scummy into your head...?

No one was thinking of lynching Boron, either. So, you were deciding between pressure voting an inactive so late in the phase it meant nothing, and keeping your vote on one of your top scumreads. Why was voting Boron better than voting Shinori?

Yeah, I get that.

I assume you thought we were active lurking, otherwise voting wouldn't do any good. Someone can't be convinced to post if they aren't reading the thread. Is this a false assumption?

[Strawman]

Paper is either kidnapped or janned, I think. Doubt the latter is true, because I would think BBM would tell us if he were dead. Not impossible though.

Well he is listed in the Dead Players list in the OP, so I'm thinking him being janned is actually more likely to be true than kidnapped. Also BBM did say to assume he was no longer in the game.

Also, a note on the Elieson wagon. It consists of ClaimedDoc!Wren, AssumedDead!Paper, Null!JB, SilencedClaimedKillCop!Baldrick, DeadHooker!Scorri, and ThatGuyIWantedToLynchYesterday!Mancer. I don't have enough time to look into context and reason behind the votes right now, but unless we want to spend time harping on a claimed silenced player and claimed!doc this only really gives us two people to get anything from, JB and Mancer.

Also also, ##Vote:Kay

I don't like that yesterday you stayed on your RVS vote the entire time. Not only that but you had overall very few posts and even then they expressed little to none of your opinion and consisted mostly of clarification questions. As such you did very little in terms of visible scum hunting and trying to make yesterday less of the mess it was.

Furthermore, you come in here today with a pretty long post with questions/suspicions of JB and Neko, and at the end state that you want to avoid the mess that happened yesterday.

Unless the mess you are referring to is Neko's actions and not the horrible end of yesterday, your posts comes off to me as a long drawn out attempt to make yourself look as if you're being pro-active town when so far all evidence of your actions have been the opposite.

[Sunwoo]

I have to leave, like, right now, but before I do I just want to say this. In games where a janitor was present, it was still explicitly stated that said the janned player was dead, but not their role. Paperblade has "gone missing". If he were jan-killed, I'd think it'd have explicitly stated he was dead. Which makes me think that something else may be up.

Anyway, I really don't have the time to say more than this. I'll post more when I'm actually around.

[j00]

I'd say Paperblade's more likely to be kidnapped/jailed than janitored as he's not explicitly stated to be dead.

So, to sum it up, scorri's dead, Bal's silenced and Paperblade kidnapped. Elieson stopped a lynch and Wren claimed doc. I'm willing to take Bal's claim at face value right now as silencing is a rather scummy skill, and Elieson has proven his claimed ability.

Wren, who did you target?

The initial vote for Shinori was because he said something along the lines of Mancer's initial vote on me being a serious vote, and I wanted him to elaborate. When I made the list of reads, Elie hadn't posted since his huge defense in #147, and Shinori had thrown a small tantrum over getting voted in #129, thus the defensive, scum feeling I got from them.

I took my vote off Shinori because nobody was thinking of pointing a lynch his way, and everything was on Elie/Wren/Baldrick - Why waste my vote on Shinori? Furthermore, if you look at the posts he's made, he hasn't actually said a lot - One overreaction, and a lot of echoes. He's talked to, uh, me and Helios. How much does that tell you?

All 3 of you were kinda inactive, so I threw a vote on to Boron because I didn't want to lynch Elie/Wren/Baldrick, and the only other thing I could do was to get one of you to respond. You can sub Boron for Scorri or yourself, the aim was always the same.

Also, I never said that any of the 3 of you were scummy, I said you were inactive. I wonder how you got the idea that I thought you all were scummy into your head...?

You're saying you found Shinori scummy, but not worth a vote, and yet Boron/scorri/Kay were? The logical conclusion would be that you found them scummier. It's kinda weird that you removed your vote on Shinori just because you didn't think it'd lead to a lynch, and then pressure voted Boron that late in a phase. I get that you wanted them to say something, but if you removed your vote because you acknowledged that a single vote posed no threat, why would a single pressure vote be any more efficient?

Need to read that Helios/NekoRex argument before I comment on them

[Shinori]

Are you claiming that or are you just calling it based off flavor?

I'll post actual content later when it's not 3 AM and falling asleep. What I'm curious about though is how were there 2 deaths (assuming Paper is also dead)?

Also can someone analyze the Elieson wagon while I'm asleep? If not I'll just do it myself when I wake up. Night everyone!

Flavor guessing. It just matches. Also Paper may have died or he might have been a third party and won the game? Dunno. Frankly we don't know. Just that he is gone and out of the game and no info about it. However I don't like this whole two possible kills thing with a killing cop. That seems weird to me.

I frankly believe that paperblade is more a long the lines of a third party that won but I don't know. Role speccing game speccing. Stuff that isn't good.

Need to reread Taewoo but for now I'm going to drop a vote somewhere likeeeeeee.

##Vote: Shatter

I don't like some of his recent posts. Partially weird gut feeling I got off one of his posts involving Paperblade. Also his post #303 felt really bad to me. Stated multiple reasons foro why I was scummy, explained reasoning on his other votes and didn't drop a vote on anyone. He seems really defensive about his supposed suspicions basically saying that he never said three people were scummy, just inactive. So who is scummy then?

[WREN]

To start off I healed no one last night.

I didn't do this because there was in fact a part of my role I did not claim due to an ATTEMPTED GAMBIT which sadly failed.

However since that happened I can now clarify; I am not just a regular night doc I am in fact an EVEN night doctor, and if I am getting the implications correctly there should be an ODD night doctor as well.

The gambit was to draw in the scum to try and kill me, (thinking I am the only doctor) while also drawing the attention of the ODD doc to heal me as well. Sadly it seems the scum pulled a rather strange move.

Now something problematic i noticed no one is pointing out is this

Might as well throw my role out there, though I really don't know how to describe it well. I'm a two-shot kill cop; I get a positive result if my target has a killing ability.

Please take the major notice of lack of character claim, and also minor notice of how this ability would work more so in the scum's favor.

##Vote:Baldrick

[j00]

@WREN

If that was a gambit, how come you didn't claim doctor earlier? You came far too late for people to have confidence in your claim, and if your reasoning is that you were afraid that the odd night docter were to CC, s/he would probably come to the same conclusion as you; that there are two doctors. You lurked a long time before providing a second post that got votes off you, which is rather scummy. If you were trying to make yourself a target you should have been more obvious.

I honestly don't like Baldrick's claim either, but I'm not gonna vote him just because of a claim and lack of flavor. His posts are still not good, but unless someone admits to have redirected to Baldrick or something I don't think he's scum. Either mafia or ITP silenced him, or he was redirected by town. I don't think town has a silencer as it's a completely anti-town role.

[WREN]

@j00

I didn't claim earlier because it would've just looked worse, and I hadn't thought of the gambit at that point.

Also, do you mean I should have made myself a better target to the odd doc, or the scum? Actually I'll just answer both.

I don't think I could have been more obvious to the odd doc without letting the scum onto the fact that there were two docs. As you said the odd doctor would automatically know who I am by the fact that he's an odd doctor, not nurse joy, and that I said that I am A night doctor. To top it off I SAID I was going to likely be nightkilled.

And the fact that I was claiming doc in the first place should have made me a PRIME target to scum.

Silencer could be third party, and I see not much of a reason for scum to silence Baldrick if he is town. Especially since he was up to be lynched.

[Helios]

I'm currently inclined to believe the two kill theory, with janitor-kill on paperblade and a third party kill on scorri (I'm not sure why scorri would be killed by scum when she barely posted in the game, Paperblade makes more sense as a "namekill", and an SK would probably aim for scorri since she's scum fairly often). Think of Baldrick's claimed role, a "killcop". Why would there be a kill cop in the game if there weren't other killing roles in the game besides scum? On top of that, Baldrick has been silenced by (gonna assume this here since no one's claimed silencer yet) by a scum!silencer. Also, why is it that no one CCed Baldrick when given the chance? All these facts are actually pointing towards Baldrick leaning town.

##Vote Shatter

JB has been looking weirder to me ever since mid D1. So many town gut reads on people who have been popular scumspecs and have looked scummy (like Wren, Mancer, and Baldrick). If Mancer claims some town role to it'll look more suspicious since he finds him town even though they've been arguing with each other (sorta). He hasn't really done much scumhunting and has mostly replied to posts made by others addressing him. His listpost earlier in the game wasn't something I liked; it had a lot of waffly reads or null reads. Reads as scum not yet sure which mislynch to push yet. I also don't see the point of pressure votes that late into the phase, but I think I and others have already touched on that. So yeah I could support this lynch.

[Helios]

@Shinori: Yeah that's what I thought as well. Also disagree that Paper is third party since usually when a third party wins it's announced that he/she won and taken out of the game, and we'd get a flip. He's either been jankilled or kidnapped, and I'm leaning towards jankilled right now since we are to assume he's dead. The "gone missing" part is probably just flavor since people don't die in Pokemon.

@Wren: Why do you think scum would have no reason to silence Baldrick? If Baldrick's scum, silencing him will give him some towncred in theory (scum silence buddies all the time early for this). If he's town, this makes perfect sense since he's a cop and scum don't want the claimed cop to out his results.

[MancerNecro]

I'm not liking Wren's claim right now. Odd Doc + Even Doc is a very unconventional role (this is moving into role spec, so I'll stop here). I hadn't liked his D1 claim and his D2 claim makes it worse.

Has anyone been Hooked? There is something I want to confirm with my role's results.

##Vote: Shatter

He's one of my top scum reads yesterday and his Day 2 posts have not really been good at all. He keeps talking about how scummy Shinori is, yet he unvoted Shinori and voted Boron.

He gave me the reason that Shinori has answered his question and thus, had unvoted Shinori for someone else. But on prodding, he also admits that his unvote had happened very late in the Day phase.

I also feel his pressure votes aren't good because choosing to pressure vote inactives will have little to no effect since they aren't likely to respond to it to get the vote off or for him to garner reactions off of them. Pressure voting someone more active is a different story though.

I have said that I feel that NekoRex might be scum active lurking. I'm going to reiterate this and point out that he has not posted in Day 2 yet (or at least not made any memorable posts). This will become a more valid point if he does not post and contribute by the end of Day 2.

[BBM]

Votecount:

Shatter/JB (3): Shinori, Helios, Mancer

NekoRex (1): Kay

Kay (1): Strawman

Baldrick (1): WREN

Not Voting (6): Boron, j00, Elieson, Baldrick, JB, NekoRex

With 12 players present, it takes 5 votes to lynch at deadline and 7 to hammer. There are a bit more than 50 hours left in the phase, which ends at 11 PM EST on December 28th.

[WREN]

I am also one to agree with the scumjanitor+townie/thirdparty slayer thing.

But the thing with Baldricks role is that for townies it's unreliable if there are other killers outside of scum while for scum it will always show you who is a threat. Which means it makes no sense for it to only be a two shot and a townie role.

Also no one could counterclaim him, if it's his scum ability.

@ Helios's @WREN

I actually considered that first one but I ended up deciding it was to out there to be worth mentioning, but apparently it's not! And again his ability is unreliable+limited so unless the scum knew he was going to read one of them it would be better to silence someone else.

[Jaybee]

@wren: baldrick is silenced he can't exactly tell you his character this phase

No one was thinking of lynching Boron, either. So, you were deciding between pressure voting an inactive so late in the phase it meant nothing, and keeping your vote on one of your top scumreads. Why was voting Boron better than voting Shinori?

Why did you assume I wanted to lynch Boron? Also, I'll just go over the pros and cons for voting Boron/Shinori.

Shinori: Shows I think he's scummy, which I've also done by, you know, saying it this phase. Downside is nobody else gives a damn.

Boron: Maybe she'll see it and get some motivation to post. Downside is nobody else gives a damn.

And I've already explained why I didn't want to vote Elie/Wren/Baldrick.

I assume you thought we were active lurking, otherwise voting wouldn't do any good. Someone can't be convinced to post if they aren't reading the thread. Is this a false assumption?

Someone can be convinced to post if they're checking the thread, like, for 15 minutes a day and they see a vote on them for inactivity.

You're saying you found Shinori scummy, but not worth a vote, and yet Boron/scorri/Kay were? The logical conclusion would be that you found them scummier. It's kinda weird that you removed your vote on Shinori just because you didn't think it'd lead to a lynch, and then pressure voted Boron that late in a phase. I get that you wanted them to say something, but if you removed your vote because you acknowledged that a single vote posed no threat, why would a single pressure vote be any more efficient?

The way I see it, different votes have different purposes (feel free to disagree). A vote on a scummy player means you want them lynched/want them to talk more, a vote on an inactive player means that you want them to be around. A pressure vote on Boron, though late in the phase, conveys the latter message.

##Vote: Shatter

I don't like some of his recent posts. Partially weird gut feeling I got off one of his posts involving Paperblade. Also his post #303 felt really bad to me. Stated multiple reasons foro why I was scummy, explained reasoning on his other votes and didn't drop a vote on anyone. He seems really defensive about his supposed suspicions basically saying that he never said three people were scummy, just inactive. So who is scummy then?

Which post regarding Paper are you referring to?

I'm defensive about it because people are putting words in my mouth which aren't true. And as for who's scummy, I'm still thinking you for that D1 overreaction and Wren (which I will explain soon enough).

##Vote Shatter

JB has been looking weirder to me ever since mid D1. So many town gut reads on people who have been popular scumspecs and have looked scummy (like Wren, Mancer, and Baldrick). If Mancer claims some town role to it'll look more suspicious since he finds him town even though they've been arguing with each other (sorta). He hasn't really done much scumhunting and has mostly replied to posts made by others addressing him. His listpost earlier in the game wasn't something I liked; it had a lot of waffly reads or null reads. Reads as scum not yet sure which mislynch to push yet. I also don't see the point of pressure votes that late into the phase, but I think I and others have already touched on that. So yeah I could support this lynch.

During D1 I thought Wren was town because I reasoned that mafia wouldn't let one of their own get lynched so easily without defending himself. My read on Mancer was more as a confused player, not as town or mafia. Also, I've never said anything about Baldrick except that I needed to reread his psots (something I haven't done yet urgh). How'd you get the idea I thought he was town into your head?

Apologies for not feeling certain about anybody's alignment aside from my own on Day 1.

@Bold: Interesting opinion. Unsure of which mislynch to push? Hmm.

##Vote: Shatter

He's one of my top scum reads yesterday and his Day 2 posts have not really been good at all. He keeps talking about how scummy Shinori is, yet he unvoted Shinori and voted Boron.

He gave me the reason that Shinori has answered his question and thus, had unvoted Shinori for someone else. But on prodding, he also admits that his unvote had happened very late in the Day phase.

I also feel his pressure votes aren't good because choosing to pressure vote inactives will have little to no effect since they aren't likely to respond to it to get the vote off or for him to garner reactions off of them. Pressure voting someone more active is a different story though.

explained the shinori -> boron already

In the same way you admitted your vote for me early in the phase was a stupid idea?

explained the inactives already

[Jaybee]

now to read and respond to the wren claim brb

[Jaybee]

I didn't do this because there was in fact a part of my role I did not claim due to an ATTEMPTED GAMBIT which sadly failed.

...

The gambit was to draw in the scum to try and kill me, (thinking I am the only doctor) while also drawing the attention of the ODD doc to heal me as well. Sadly it seems the scum pulled a rather strange move.

No no no no no. Did you consider that assuming there were an odd night doc (And assuming you're not lying about your role) that the odd night doc would, you know, counterclaim? And then we'd have both doctors exposed to the mafia begging to be sniped off?

The odd night doc could have claimed and potentially gotten you lynched, and you'd then have to backtrack and say you could only protect on even nights, and I'm not sure how many people would believe your new claim. Assuming your role is what you say it is, you're lucky the above scenario didn't happen.