Tales of Symphonia Mafia Ver. 1.0

[MancerNecro]

I'll read after my New Year Dinner with my teacher and make more informed posts then.

[j00]

Holidays are busy

@Obviam

I've voted for SB most of D1 and posted more reasons then and he still haven't improved in my opinion so it's becoming more of a case of tunneling than OMGUS which probably isn't much better but yeah

I tracked JB because he was among the less active ones and didn't explain his vote on Shin properly, and wasn't receiving a lot of attention in general. Currently I don't find him scummy and based on my result he's not one I want to lynch today.

I don't like Marth's play and him just switching his vote because "it wasn't working". And saying "can't remember anything from him" talking about JB is barely valid since activity's been bad for many and you could just ISO to look further at what he's actually said. I think he's town playing badly but in potential mylo you should go with who you actually think is scum instead of hunches and who other people want to lynch.

Doing a closer read on the rest later

[Shinori]

You guys will most likely be getting an extension because of new years stuff.

[Aleph]

why would you think this given that we just had a flipped town census taker who knew that he had 9 townbuddies

scumslip imho

This looks like grasping. Whatever multi faction split of 15 players there is that has 10 townies is probably shit, and I'm pretty sure j00 would know better than to out something like this if he knew it to be fact. It would have no function for him even as WIFOM if he were scum and it looks more like he's really just in the dark. We all agree 10:5 is pretty shitty too.

Also going to bed so I'll re-read later

And potential mylo after two town deaths ugh what the hell

He also posted this before he saw your retort, like he was still legitimately working out the possibilities in his head.

If Marth is really going to pull meta bullshit that I'm scum because I'm almost always scum and that's the best case he can think of, I think this makes things a lot easier.

scum + skimming = scumming

Quit scumming up the thread Helios.

her scumbuddies would've advised against.

Even average mafia players know enough to keep new players on their team in line. The fact that we see CR floundering around at all means she's either legitimately alone or really crafty, and I lean toward the former. However, she still played really screwy and I'm wondering if maybe it's 10/4/1.

Question is we didn't have two kills last night so there's also the chance we have 5 scum or something. >_>

Also important, but specifically relating it back to the j00/prims argument, j00 will have implied a successful doctoring if he were giving a scum perspective. That would just be awful play, and also not something I'd expect him to do even considering WIFOM. I suppose it's always possible prims and j00 are allies distancing from each other, though.

And waffling=scummy.

Usually see the opposite myself, since townies traditionally don't know anything for certain.

Regarding your comments about claiming, though, I wholeheartedly agree. Claiming is not something that is necessarily good for town, and I was raised to win games by treating claiming as a taboo even for townies, even in OC games. Leaking your power role just lets the mafia know you're ready to die. A lot of you made that horrible mistake in OC Basics just a bit ago.

With that said, trying to coerce claims from people is really scummy in a game without an obvious town leader. Even then I would say that it's still pretty scummy, especially since town leaders can secretly be puppetmaster!mafia - see Unicycle.

You never did anything to disprove this so I kept my vote on you.

That sounds familiar oh I did that to Bizz now I remember

Difference being I had evidence of her hypocrisy and all you have are generalizations.

when BBM claimed governor

IIRC because you coerced it out of him, and incidentally I both noted how scummy that is just above, and a bit further above that we see that BBM is dead HMMMM

I never waffled either my mind never changed on thinking you were scum, and you're basically telling me if I was town I would waffle by reconsidering my opinion on you.

Yes you never waffled voting for someone you know is town how professional

I refer to my earlier comment about how town are by definition MORE likely to waffle. I need to start paying attention to people who bring up this waffling crap and see if I can derive some meta from it, because it looks like an easy way to scumhunt here on SF. You and Marth both must have some really atypical experiences unless you only play with badkids.

if you flip town then well I screwed up and I'll learn from my mistakes in the future.

just in time for your opponent to conveniently be dead

I do give you points for this though. Someone aside from me needed to say that.

Though now it looks more like you're the one who's trying to gain towncred by mentioning scum!SB. Does your ScumBuddy appreciate that?

If BBM hadn't died last night it's not like I'd push for his lynch.

If god exists it's not like he would necessarily show up and start talking to everyone. I won't make this into a religious debate, but you're using the same unprovable argument atheists poke holes in all the time. It's not disproved so it must be true?

You've even admitted to echoing, which isn't really contribution. You tried to defend yourself by attacking why I didn't mention JB, and it's obvious I didn't mention him because I didn't have a great read on him yet.

You make it sound like that's all he's done. This has been your argument in general, but we've seen that's not the case. Yeah, he's playing weak - you're smothering his attempts to get out of the rut.

if that counts

"Hey town does this count? Can I feed you bullshit this way too or should I try different bullshit?"

I still see the word "meta" being tossed around abusively. Let me just take the time to point out that all mafia is meta anyway because that's the only way to cut through all the foggy WIFOM that makes the game so damn tricky. Arguing about people using too much or too little meta is just stupid, and meta in itself because it's a veil for not having a real argument.

You're all throwing around the word "tunneling" too. The game is about catching scum, not slinging buzzwords. Play the damn game, it's getting old sifting through this.

Actually, we should just put a ban on using certain words because it's getting out of hand.

Waffling, tunneling, meta, WIFOM, handwaving, probably some others

Now look at this post.

- It looks to me like he didn't have a read on JB at a time much earlier in the game from when he got onto you for not having one. Dat grasing.

- Most of the buzzwords you're accusing him of spamming...when I made my list above just now, I got those words from YOUR posts...yes, posts, as in not just the one I linked to with your own buzzword lists, but actual usages of the words. By YOU. They look pretty thrown in there.

- All the other stuff you said is mostly just "he has no strong arguments and is focused on defending himself" which is a really tired load about now. You've caught him saying some contradictory things, but all of your examples make him look like he's stupid, not like he's scum. There are plenty of hypocritical things you've said that look more scummy than him.

~~~~~

It looks like people are catching on to the sneaking around SB and JB have been doing. My Helios feeling has grown more negative and I'd be down for a Helios > JB > SB myself, so ##Vote: Helios for now.

JB's been playing particularly shitty, and while I think SB's got it worse, I'm more afraid of JB being scum. That said, Helios is clearly more active and therefore more in control, which is more dangerous if he's scum than JB or SB.

After those three I'd probably go after Prims because of what I said earlier - I have kind of a gut read on him just for being really solid with his posts yet with great intervals between them, like he's being really safe...and despite that I've seen some scummy things in his posts, particularly the shorter ones he didn't try as hard with. He makes believable cases for his thoughts, but it seems like he's avoiding the more relevant issues like this big thing between Marth and Helios. I guess I can't really blame him for that though, since it was a headache to read through and offering scumhunting of other players is like a breath of fresh air.

Also, where is Eli? He had a lot to say a bit ago and now he's gone? Maybe it's because of the holidays. He's an impoverished family man IIRC so he's probably busier than most of us.

Finally, I just want everyone to know that prims is still gay.

[Prims]

This looks like grasping.

It was a joke.

[eclipse]

IRIS HAS REQUESTED A SUB. Interested parties should let Shinori/me know.

[Shinori]

Baldrick has been subbed in for Iris.

Because of various issues I'm gonna give a 24 hour extension for this phase and this phase only.

New phase end is January 3rd at 8pm CST.

[Baldrick]

Going to read the thread properly, but it will be slow going.

[scorri]

Hmm ok, a couple thoughts.

i forgot scorri was playing but then i looked through her iso and didn't find a single instance of *shrug* so she's probably town

I should fix this in future games, huh?

I still want JB to confirm j00's tracker report, though the fact that he hasn't said it's wrong makes me lean towards it's a valid claim.

Next, here's a thing I don't quite get. You guys are all claiming that you see CR as a SK and I find myself agreeing with that. Now, why wouldn't we want to lynch said SK? It gets rid of a kill, gets rid of an anti-town and allows us a break from the mylo situation.

Right now, if there is in fact a third party, the split is 8/4/1. If we lynch the SK, that means tomorrow it's 7/4 which means that we'd have an extra mislynch that we might now have otherwise. So!

##Vote:CR

Also, restating since it kinda got lost in the massive walls of text before, there's a redirect in the game. Since no one has claimed it yet, I'm going to assume it's not a town redirect.

[Aleph]

You don't think CR being SK is a really flimsy notion that could be dangerous to act upon as uncertain as we are? Are you perhaps more certain than you should be? If CR is an SK, what are the odds there'd only be 1 death last night?

[Bluedoom]

Well we're in potential MYLO so that kinda says there is a third party(probably an SK) unless Shinori's talking about a vig who'll misvig, Even then you'd wonder why CR got 'SK' vibes from Shin.

##Unvote ##Vote: CR Can't believe I didn't think of this >_>

[Prims]

Guys we don't lynch somebody for being SK until the game becomes a manhunt unless we're incredibly certain who the SK is. "CR thought a SK was in the game" does not make us incredibly certain she is the SK.

Lynch scum.

[Helios]

That sounds familiar oh I did that to Bizz now I remember

Difference being I had evidence of her hypocrisy and all you have are generalizations.

IIRC because you coerced it out of him, and incidentally I both noted how scummy that is just above, and a bit further above that we see that BBM is dead HMMMM

Yes you never waffled voting for someone you know is town how professional

I refer to my earlier comment about how town are by definition MORE likely to waffle. I need to start paying attention to people who bring up this waffling crap and see if I can derive some meta from it, because it looks like an easy way to scumhunt here on SF. You and Marth both must have some really atypical experiences unless you only play with badkids.

just in time for your opponent to conveniently be dead

I do give you points for this though. Someone aside from me needed to say that.

Though now it looks more like you're the one who's trying to gain towncred by mentioning scum!SB. Does your ScumBuddy appreciate that?

If god exists it's not like he would necessarily show up and start talking to everyone. I won't make this into a religious debate, but you're using the same unprovable argument atheists poke holes in all the time. It's not disproved so it must be true?

You make it sound like that's all he's done. This has been your argument in general, but we've seen that's not the case. Yeah, he's playing weak - you're smothering his attempts to get out of the rut.

"Hey town does this count? Can I feed you bullshit this way too or should I try different bullshit?"

I still see the word "meta" being tossed around abusively. Let me just take the time to point out that all mafia is meta anyway because that's the only way to cut through all the foggy WIFOM that makes the game so damn tricky. Arguing about people using too much or too little meta is just stupid, and meta in itself because it's a veil for not having a real argument.

You're all throwing around the word "tunneling" too. The game is about catching scum, not slinging buzzwords. Play the damn game, it's getting old sifting through this.

Actually, we should just put a ban on using certain words because it's getting out of hand.

Waffling, tunneling, meta, WIFOM, handwaving, probably some others

Now look at this post.

- It looks to me like he didn't have a read on JB at a time much earlier in the game from when he got onto you for not having one. Dat grasing.

- Most of the buzzwords you're accusing him of spamming...when I made my list above just now, I got those words from YOUR posts...yes, posts, as in not just the one I linked to with your own buzzword lists, but actual usages of the words. By YOU. They look pretty thrown in there.

- All the other stuff you said is mostly just "he has no strong arguments and is focused on defending himself" which is a really tired load about now. You've caught him saying some contradictory things, but all of your examples make him look like he's stupid, not like he's scum. There are plenty of hypocritical things you've said that look more scummy than him.

Except I didn't use generalizations I provided solid evidence to make the case on Marth. Also if I'm doing the same thing you did to Bizz, how does this make me look scummy? Unless of course, you're scum trying to push a mislynch on Bizz (which I think is highly probable since Bizz was obvtown to me, though Straw could always change that if he actually existed).

There's a difference between coercing someone to claim and agreeing with someone they should probably claim when they actually offered themselves to claim and were on the verge of being lynched. I did the latter. I'm also pretty sure I wasn't the only person who agreed that he should probably claim.

Unlike you I actually can't know he's town or scum since, you know, I'm town and have no way of knowing anyone else's alignment except through scumhunting.

Agree to disagree because I've seen scum "waffle" quite a bit with their opinions in order to push more mislynches, defend their buddies subtly, or are just trying to "play it safe" so that they gain towncred. This can also go with people who have too many nullreads (which Marth has quite a bit of) but that's not really a huge scumtell since confused townies do this as well. Just gotta try and read the situation and type of player.

Well I'm glad you agree with my case on scum!SB, but it's unfortunate that you're trying to twist it into me bussing a buddy, especially when we don't even know SB's flip yet. Unless you do?

Fair enough and I can't really prove it unless you look at the fact that it's not like I voted BBM after he claimed governor nor pushed for his lynch or anything and pushed other lynches instead.

I don't even have to argue about this because you later kindly link my case on Marth that proves that you're misrepping my case and generalizing it into something smaller than it really is to try and make me look bad. But hey pushing mislynches is pretty hard unless you do things like this or quote things out of context isn't it?

Again you should probably stop quoting things out of context since when you put them in context, it actually makes perfect sense. Point still stands either way.

Well not really because people change their playstyles and do things differently to try and take advantage of people who scumhunt using too much meta. I think most people here agree that using meta as part of a case is alright, but using it too much or making an entire case out of it is bad (and scummy) play. Marth falls in the latter.

Just searched my ISO and found the word "tunneling" used 3 times. All 3 times they were in response to Marth calling me out for it. I'm not using it as often as you claim. Yes I know this is referring to everyone but I just want to make sure this isn't some reason you want to lynch me, for idk being hypocritical or something. Oh wait you actually do hahahaha.

First of all you're misrepping here (not surprising). The point wasn't that he was using a bunch of buzzwords necessarily, but the fact that he's throwing out a bunch of them without any backing to them in order to make his weak arguments look a little more flashy. So yeah I used tunneling 3 times, used grasping twice (once to actually accuse Marth of grasping to mislynch me, and the other in reply to him saying "grasping"), and said waffling twice (once in order to reply to him calling me for waffling by saying I wasn't, and the other to say that he waffled).

So yeahhhh you're pulling quite a bit of bullshit here and hoping that people don't want to read through my masses of text to actually realize just how much of a bullshit case this is. You're big post here looks good until you actually analyze it and see just how wrong it is.

Hmm ok, a couple thoughts.

I should fix this in future games, huh?

I still want JB to confirm j00's tracker report, though the fact that he hasn't said it's wrong makes me lean towards it's a valid claim.

Next, here's a thing I don't quite get. You guys are all claiming that you see CR as a SK and I find myself agreeing with that. Now, why wouldn't we want to lynch said SK? It gets rid of a kill, gets rid of an anti-town and allows us a break from the mylo situation.

Right now, if there is in fact a third party, the split is 8/4/1. If we lynch the SK, that means tomorrow it's 7/4 which means that we'd have an extra mislynch that we might now have otherwise. So!

##Vote:CR

Also, restating since it kinda got lost in the massive walls of text before, there's a redirect in the game. Since no one has claimed it yet, I'm going to assume it's not a town redirect.

Well we're in potential MYLO so that kinda says there is a third party(probably an SK) unless Shinori's talking about a vig who'll misvig, Even then you'd wonder why CR got 'SK' vibes from Shin.

##Unvote ##Vote: CR Can't believe I didn't think of this >_>

Guys we lynch who we think is scum not who we think is a third party. Unless there's SOLID EVIDENCE that CR is an SK, we should lynch who we actually think is town. This actually looks more scummy than protown because of how much more of a threat SK is to scum than town since an accidental shot on a buddy hurts lowers the chances of mafia winning the game. So yeah I'm agreeing with Prims and Obviam here and reiterating what they said. Lynch who you think is scum.

[Helios]

Oh yeah I forgot to do this in my last post.

##Unvote

##Vote SB

Reasons given already. Time's running out and I think I'm the only person who still finds Marth scummy, so keeping my vote on him is a waste.

[Bluedoom]

Technically we're going to find people scummy(atm) for not existing and not contributing at this point so wrt actual lynch I'd wanna lynch Helios but I think only Obviam would agree to that.

As much as I dislike SB's later posts ("I'm not sure what to think of you" is a classic scumtell) I feel like he's just going to be some scapegoat(ok Helios' actions kinda confuse me on this one) so I'd probably prefer Helios lynch to SB. JB like, still hasn't bothered explaining dat vote shift LD1 and his contribution is saying something about catering to others and defending CR as noobtown. Uhhh I don't see how that contributes to scumhunting so lynch priorities are Helios>JB>SB/CR.

[Prims]

Also, mod, can we get prods on inactives so they remember to post now that there's been an extension?

[Helios]

As much as I dislike SB's later posts ("I'm not sure what to think of you" is a classic scumtell) I feel like he's just going to be some scapegoat(ok Helios' actions kinda confuse me on this one) so I'd probably prefer Helios lynch to SB. JB like, still hasn't bothered explaining dat vote shift LD1 and his contribution is saying something about catering to others and defending CR as noobtown. Uhhh I don't see how that contributes to scumhunting so lynch priorities are Helios>JB>SB/CR.

What did I do that's so confusing again?

[Elieson]

Ok I've got some time to dedicate to this now. Pretty unique holiday experience, I'll get into details in private/postgame if anyone would like to hear the specifics.

Quick thought #1: 10 townies in a game and we're at potential MYLO after one mislynch? All I can do is rolespec my way through this to even consider the ways that this could actually be happening, but I'm getting a hunch that a third party exists somewhere. It just seems stupid that 1/3 of the game is antitown.

First off, did anyone else even notice that scorri shouted out that there is a redirect? Or the report that j00 claims JB did nothing? Just things that outta be at least acknowledged by a few more people IMO. Dunno if Marth or Helios noticed it, as they were both knee deep in eachother's argument (which to me, is pretty far from scummy based on the behavior and terminology and sincerity that's coming out). Also thanks Helios, for taking note of my request that you do large bullet points from last game.

Second, prims is gayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Third, slip of the century

@helios: ok just wondering

also I kind of pulled some of my reasoning after the vote out of my ass so it would look like I was contributing

I don't understand how you guys are just coming up with all of this stuff.

I honestly can't look at this and see town, and if anyone else can, then maybe I'm just the only one.

Fourth, the more I look at flips and interactions with those flips, the less I like SB. All he's done is attack Marth early game (and kinda tunnel it), pretty much entirely ignore BBM and Shin (and when BBM was pretty much the leader as far as the day's lynch before SB's last post of the day, one would expect some sort of comment on it), and poke j00 for what appears more to be a tunnel than anything else. Sure he addressed Aleph later on, but the case was half-based on material and half based on OMGUS and playstyle attacking. The OMGUS to a poke on votal generation was silly at best, and only makes me think that you were showing panic over it. Also not to mention a mild-at-best waffling on Shin.

That, combined with the sudden late day uncertainty of his vote on Marth when all he did was tunnel him D1, and then suddenly think "Ok, I'm not sure how I feel about Marth right now. Still scumreading him, but not to the extent I was yesterday, so ##Unvote"

The fact that he unvoted isn't weird, but it's the reasoning behind it. It's like he's doubting Marth being scum simply because others are voting elsewhere. It's a cheesy excuse to unvote someone, and shows that not only do you think someone else is scummy, but that you think your original read isn't scummy (for ?? reasons)

And Finally,

##Vote SB

[Helios]

I caught it (scorri claiming redirected), I just didn't know what we're supposed to do with it at this stage. First of all, why would mafia redirect someone whom they don't know anything about? The only person who claimed a role is j00, so wouldn't they want to redirect j00 at someone? Why choose scorri?

I got you Elie B).

I don't think that's a slip but a confused player who doesn't really know what she's doing. It really doesn't look like she's getting help from buddies with statements like that.

Any other reads you're willing to share?

[Bluedoom]

We can't really do anything about Scorri being redirected since we don't know why it happened(or if Scorri is lying, that would be the other possibility) so I never said anything about it.

@Helios: Meaning I'm not sure what to make of you voting SB since you're on the top of my scumdar.

[Baldrick]

It took me a lot longer to read this than I anticipated. Some thoughts:

Helios has given very good explanations, and I feel he got the better of the exchange with Marth. He's defending CR quite a bit, though, labelling her as noobtown earlier, then saying SK is more dangerous to mafia even though we're in potential MYLO. It doesn't mean much unless CR flips scum, though.

Marth has made a lot of inaccurate statements and stuff I don't agree with (too tired to elaborate now), but I don't consider him scummy because he strikes me as genuine, and he has been under a lot of pressure this game.

JB didn't even give a funny reason for his RVS vote. Disappointing. I'm wondering if the double standard between Shin and CR is worth looking into.

I'm curious as to why scorri thinks a town redirect would out themselves at this stage.

It was strange that Mancer dismissed BBM's Levity vote as a joke, but considered Marth's reply to him serious. I'll be interested to hear what he has to say next.

CR I'd be fairly interested in lynching. Since at times she's outright admitted she screwed up instead of trying to defend, I don't believe her play is genuine, I think she's pretending to flounder in order to make people dismiss her. Scumbuddies can just as easily advise a newbie the best way to appear like a confused townie.

I'm not exactly sure what Obviam's game is. He's strongly opposed to buzzwords, but you make liberal use of them (like meta, grasping, WIFOM) and even invent some of your own (Scumming, for example). Most of his arguments feel contrived to me, it looks like he's trying to push a mislynch on Helios. It's too bad, because I agree with a lot of his views on mafia strategy.

Vote: Obviam

I'll write the rest later, it's nearly 2am now.

[MancerNecro]

Okay, I'm very sorry town for me being inactive. I'll try to read and stuffs tomorrow morning and hopefully, I can inject some reads into the thread before phase ends.

@Baldrick: Compare the fact that BBM did not have a lot of reasons supporting his vote (none, actually, apart from a joke comment) while Bluedoom used actual reasons to support his vote. I also realise that Bluedoom has been lynched Day 1 a lot, both as scum and town, so I think his self-victimisation is him trying to make use of his past meta to appeal to other players' sympathies to not be lynched Day 1. The only reason why he'd do this is if he was scum.

I'm not going to lay down a vote yet, no until I've read the thread at least once or twice.

[MancerNecro]

Just a little bit of analysis from the start of Day 2 (I'll read Day 1 in entirety soon, reading from Day 2 lets me get into the action faster): I see a lot of speculation about the setup. I have a feeling that all those involved in the speculation are in some way scum. It's as if they already knew how many scum/anti-town/factions there are and are mentioning it in thread as a sort of speculation. I might be a little sensitive here, but this is something I noticed.

j00 comes out as the most suspicious from that speculation, because of how he is "Multifaction" then "I just saw potential MyLo, so maybe not" thing might be him trying to take back what he has let slip about the setup. It could also be that he is scum and his scum buddies told him about his slip and asked him to correct himself or something.

##Vote: j00

My vote is liable to change as I read the thread, because I am basing it off of ED2 stuff, so I might not have read something in the later parts of Day 2 that might make j00 seem townier or someone else seem scummier.

[MancerNecro]

Urgh, I'm going to read through the 15 pages of Day 1, if only because the discussion after the speculation part continues on from Day 1 content and I definitely will not be able to comment on those until after I've read through what has happened in Day 1.

[MancerNecro]

I'd like to announce that there is a redirect in the game, and besides that, I'll reread in a bit.

What do you mean by this scorri? Were you redirected last Night?