Opinion on Crossbows

[Jotari]

I made a topic a while ago asking how people feel about knives and I got some nice feed back so I thought, why not make a similar topic on the other "other" weapon in the series. Crossbows. So a simple question, how do you feel about Crossbows? Should they return? Should they retain their no strength quirk? What classes should use them? Should they have weapon ranks? Should there be classes that specializes in crossbows the same way Thieves specializes in knives?

(Even though they only appear in Radiant Dawn, I'm placing this in General Fire Emblem since I'm thinking more about the general mechanics of the series and possibilities in future games)

Edited December 31, 2012 by Jotari

[Jedi]

I thought they were a neat idea. I found it kinda lame that they weren't good against wyverns but Tellius was strange like that.

I'd like to see them return as a means of archers having 1-2 range maybe beef up that str a bit and make them effective on wyverns so they effectively clip all flyers. Make them be an archer only weapon.

This is just my opinion lol. Probably a stupid one as usual with me

Edited December 31, 2012 by Jedi Of Connacht

[CT075]

they could be implemented better in terms of availability

as it stands the way RD did it was the crossbows becoming readily available at a point when they were mildly useless (when enemies are sporting 20 defense, 24 mt really isn't cutting it)

[Integrity]

The only gripe I had about crossbows was that crossbows are supposed to be good versus armor, which is exactly the thing that made them approach worthlessness in RD.

Crossbows ought to have no damage scalar, high weight (mitigated by a lot of strength), and benefit most greatly from Skill.

That said, crossbows make me extremely hard and should return.

[Gold Vanguard]

Am I the only one that found crossbows ok? I mean I would give Shinon one and he would almost always critical with it. Plus it gave Archers/Snipers the ability to counterattack against non-range units.

[StinDuh]

I found them a bit useless because of their low might. Like CT075 said, it just didn't cut it. Sometimes they could be useful, but only with chapters heavy with flying units and that's literally like two. Giving Shinon a Crossbow and Birdfoe and throwing him into 4-5 against all the bird laguz is kinda funny because it's just intense overkill.

I'd like to see them come back, but have much higher mights. I understand why the crossbows didn't use strength, because it doesn't take much strength to shoot one and the strength it does take doesn't change the effectiveness of the crossbow in any large sense. But crossbows are extremely effective and quite deadly in reality. A good shot to the chest and you're gone.

So I'd like to see their might increased, as well as other factors like whether or not the unit is armored. So Swordsmasters/Warriors/Snipers/Magic Users/etc. would take slightly more damage than Paladins/Generals/Halberdiers/etc. Just a small like 1.5x or less multiplier on damage to aforementioned classes, with like maybe a ~.6x multiplier on classes with armor.

That would make sense to me, but that's probably really complicated.

Edited December 31, 2012 by StinDuh

[Shadow Mir]

As I see it, the issue with crossbows came from the fact that the strongest ones you could buy only had 28 mt (and by the time you could access those, 28 Mt can't hack it). The stronger ones being one-of-a-kind didn't really help. That said, they still had their uses (mainly using with Disarm and Beastfoe).

[shadykid]

I found them a bit useless because of their low might. Like CT075 said, it just didn't cut it. Sometimes they could be useful, but only with chapters heavy with flying units and that's literally like two. Giving Shinon a Crossbow and Birdfoe and throwing him into 4-5 against all the bird laguz is kinda funny because it's just intense overkill.

So I'd like to see their might increased, as well as other factors like whether or not the unit is armored. So Swordsmasters/Warriors/Snipers/Magic Users/etc. would take slightly more damage than Paladins/Generals/Halberdiers/etc. Just a small like 1.5x or less multiplier on damage to aforementioned classes, with like maybe a ~.6x multiplier on classes with armor.

Isn't Birdfoe+crossbows entirely pointless?

Also crossbows should've been effective against armors, as Integrity pointed out

[Othin]

Kind of a disaster as they were implemented in FE10. With a power boost, they'd do fine, as long as it was within reason or otherwise constrained. Such as being limited to a select few characters/classes, as seen in a certain tangentially connected game.

[Narga_Rocks]

Power boost, sure, but they shouldn't be able to double. How long does IS think it takes to load a crossbow compared to a bow?

[Comet]

All I think they need is higher mt. All the other crossbow mechanics should stay the same if that happens. They really should back, or all the FE archers will cry for eternity unless their names are Leonardo, Shinon, or Rolf.

[Swordsalmon]

I didn't like Crossbows at all. The 1-2 range didn't really help the Archers at all because their enemy phase still sucked. :/

[Jotari]

I think having only two classes that can use them is a bit minor. Every other weapon also has a specific class the mains it so having a crossbowman or Arbalist class wouldn't be a horrible idea. Although it might feel a little bit unnecessary I'm not sure.

[Greyfox]

I used it in Radiant Dawn by giving one to Shinon before the enemy turn. Since he has provoke, he would attract the enemies and counter attack without killing the them. Shinon is fast enough to dodge well and good enough def to absorb a lot of hits. It's a good way to weaken foes for another unit to finish off. I also gave one to one of my warriors because a crossbow is pretty much a one hit kill to a pegasus knight.

It make logical sense for the crossbows to not take strength into account, but I don't really care about realism that much in a video game. They're still very situational, but I still think they should make a return in future fire emblem games.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Greyfox

[Original Alear]

I used it in Radiant Dawn by giving one to Shinon before the enemy turn. Since he has provoke, he would attract the enemies and counter attack without killing the them. Shinon is fast enough to dodge well and good enough def to absorb a lot of hits. It's a good way to weaken foes for another unit to finish off. I also gave one to one of my warriors because a crossbow is pretty much a one hit kill to a pegasus knight.

It make logical sense for the crossbows to not take strength into account, but I don't really care about realism that much in a video game. They're still very situation, but I still think they should make a return in future fire emblem games.

For me it is something like that. It was satisfying for me (perhaps sexually so) to watch Shinon counter a bunch of melee units at 1 range, even before the double bow.

Other than that, they felt more like an enemy thing than an ally thing, succeeding in putting pegs at risk. Also, for enemy warriors, they were OK (?) at making a warrior into a sort of higher durability, high accuracy do some damage to all comers kinda tank thing. That isn't something I found too much of a problem, mostly. Don't really have a clear recollection of bow snipers vs crossbow snipers.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Mouse

[Renall]

Power boost, sure, but they shouldn't be able to double. How long does IS think it takes to load a crossbow compared to a bow?

Massive Mt and no doubling would be interesting at least. But the Mt would need to be considerably higher. Like "one-shots any Pegasus ever" higher.

[Integrity]

Massive Mt and no doubling would be interesting at least. But the Mt would need to be considerably higher. Like "one-shots any Pegasus ever" higher.

It already did in FE10.

[Gold Vanguard]

What if crossbows could one-shot Wyvern Knights?

Edited December 31, 2012 by Royal Guard

[Knight]

They need to be strong enough at the time they are acquired, and usable. The crossbows you got at Part 3 would be useful at Part 1, but they become abysmally useless after a few chapters into Part 3, even on easy. They should not only be consistently powerful through the game, they should be forgeable as well.

[shadykid]

What if crossbows could one-shot Wyvern Knights?

Well, dracos would have to actually be weak to bows/crossbows, otherwise you'd one-shot everything with a crossbow....

[BossOfGuns]

I think no strength is good because you just pull the trigger, only thing they messed up is the availability.

[Rehab]

Power boost, sure, but they shouldn't be able to double. How long does IS think it takes to load a crossbow compared to a bow?

Repeating crossbows, they're pretty great.

I'm imagining giving crossbows the drawback of being used only once per turn/once per cycle of player phase => enemy phase, as another way to compensate for high MT.

[Byte2222]

Ok, as an archery nerd expert archer I have quite a bit to chip in, as I feel like we're now in a gameplay vs. realism debate, at least partly.

Disclaimer: wall-'o-text incoming

I made a topic a while ago asking how people feel about knives and I got some nice feed back so I thought, why not make a similar topic on the other "other" weapon in the series. Crossbows. So a simple question, how do you feel about Crossbows? Should they return?

No. In my personal opinion they cannot be balanced to be different enough from normal bows, not so useful as to render normal bows useless and somewhere in the region of realistic

Should they retain their no strength quirk?

No. In terms of gameplay each crossbow will have a period of a few chapters when their damage is reasonable, being redundant afterwards (if you have a silver bow or maybe even a steel bow that pegusus is dead anyway) and overpowered before. In terms of realism, all traditional (pre-1950 'ish) bows have a fixed amount of draw force so that, for a given archer, the energy output will be the same regardless of their strength. That's not to say that an archer will shoot with the same power for their entire career, they can increase their draw force but they must buy a new bow to do so. The same is still true of crossbows: beginners struggle with a 50lb crossbow but experienced hunters use 120lbs or more. What I'm saying is that strength would factor in to normal bows and crossbows equally.

Should they retain their 1-2 range?

No. In terms of gameplay it detracts from archers' unique point: 2-range dominance. I firmly believe that archers don't need 1-2 range, they just need to be not-crap on recruitment, something that IS seems adamant in not doing. If you doubt me, I point you to FE4 Jamuka and FE10 Shinon. In terms of realism it's utterly ridiculous. Crossbows take a good 10 seconds to reload, probably twice the time of a normal bow. Don't forget that you need to pull the string back on a crossbow (span it) which requires over 100lbs force and if it's applied unevenly your shot's going to fly off to the side. You have to put your foot in a stirrup at the front and pull up, in fact spanning aids like a crank are often used because fingers and arm muscles sometimes aren't up for it. I have yet to see a realistic crossbow in videogaming for exactly this reason. Come to think of it, I have yet to see a realistic crossbow in fiction period.

What classes should use them?

Snipers and Warriors are probably reasonable, but I'd much prefer for Warriors to have normal bows too to make use of their impressive strength. There aren't really any other classes that use bows except for mounted ones and from a realism standpoint it's impossible to draw back a 120lb crossbow unless you can stand in the stirrup at the end of the bow so no reloading on horseback.

Should they have weapon ranks?

Good lord no, it's hard enough to build weapon ranks as it is. Efficient players often don't bother with extra weapon types and FE10's Anima Mages had a lot of trouble, especially Ilyana. Maybe if there was only C-B-A or something but I don't think it's a good idea.

Should there be classes that specializes in crossbows the same way Thieves specializes in knives?

No. Archers dominate 2-range and most other classes have good 1-2 range with javelin/hand axe/etc. so there's no niche to fill. A class doesn't have to exist just for a weapon type, it needs to stand on its own merits. Myrmidons have high speed, medium damage, low defence, Fighters have high damage, low speed, medium defence and Soldiers are decent all round regardless of the weapons they wield.

Sorry to have a giant rant but there's a lot I wanted to say on the subject.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Byte2222

[Rehab]

But they can be used kneeling where bows can't be, though, right? I think it makes sense for them to at least have that advantage reflected ingame somehow. If you'll excuse me, if you're an archery nerd, I'd assume you'd think that FE archery is immensely UP compared to melee combat in real life, where arrows can be shot at a target vastly farther than a few yards away. :p

If they were massively heavy relatively speaking, such that doubling was practically impossible, and could only be fired once/a limited number of times a phase, I think it wouldn't be too much to give them higher MT than the average bow and 1-2 range, while still leaving bows their niche.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Rehab

[Byte2222]

But they can be used kneeling where bows can't be, though, right? I think it makes sense for them to at least have that advantage reflected ingame somehow. If you'll excuse me, if you're an archery nerd, I'd assume you'd think that FE archery is immensely UP compared to melee combat in real life, where arrows can be shot at a target vastly farther than a few yards away. :p

If they were massively heavy relatively speaking, such that doubling was practically impossible, and could only be fired once/a limited number of times a phase, I think it wouldn't be too much to give them higher MT than the average bow and 1-2 range, while still leaving bows their niche.

Yes, a crossbow can be used kneeling but I fail to see how this is relevant.

The real advantage of crossbows is accuracy and ease of use: accuracy because you don't have to hold 40-60lbs while aiming and trying to release smoothly and ease of use because, as long as you can pull it back, it's just point-and-click, like a gun. Any idiot can take a gun, point it at someone else, pull the trigger and they have a good chance of dying. That's what makes them so effective and what really killed off the bow, which required practically a lifetime's training. I'll stop before I have another rant.

I don't quite see what you're saying about FE archery vs. real archery. I can shoot a 15cm diameter arrow group at 20 yards and hit a 122cm diameter face 90m away with my modern recurve (olympic) bow and when FE10 animated it, this was reflected fairly accurately, with the exception of targeting fliers where the arrow left the bow at an angle and the shot Shinon took to save Lucia which was outright absurd. Bows are useless in melee combat because you can't shoot and not die at the same time when you've got someone attacking you with a sword/axe/spear/knife. IRL archers carried some form of melee weapon like a short sword for when the enemy got too close.