Shining Force 2 Mafia: Game Over

[Kriemhild]

because it would be part of a theoretical scum!announcers role? damned if I know, it's just you're not considering every possibility (remember; i still wouldn't want to lynch bbm)

I'm not saying he's 100% cleared, and tbh I personally don't believe that such a thing exists. However, it's enough to convince me that he's Town. If he's scum... nice trolling, Elieson

[Elieson]

Looking for a person willing to Sub in. First to Pm me gets it.

[MancerNecro]

also further on the point (proto you're a legend, you put it better than i did)

giving out too much information lets mafia make far more informed kills (eg: MC where BBM crumbed watcher, othin had claimed tracker, etc. we knew there wasn't a cop, so we wanted them dead asap

battle city mafia some time ago we knew everything by like the end of N1 and took out key threats early (like tracker).)

seeing a pattern here? don't give out too much information when it isn't necessary, it helps mafia more than the town.

And players who keep over emphasising that they're hiding something for the good of town have more often turned out to be floundering anti-town than town who are actually trying to help town.

Just noting that a normal town player would have tried to clarify things further instead of leaving everything ambiguous for other players to guess.

More reads will come when I have actually ISOed eclipse's posts. Been super super busy.

[Elieson]

I'm still at work, but Kay has been subbed in for Rocker64.

I am still seeking one more sub.

Also anyone willing to post Votals on my behalf will recieve one dozen cookies, and props in Postgame :)

Phase Ends in 21 Hours

Edited February 11, 2013 by Elieson

[scorri]

Ok, so first off ##Unvote: Helios

I'm still not sold on him being town, but there are some better targets that have come to mind.

First off, as stated by everyone, oh gog Mancer, what are you doing? Literally the only reasons I can think of for you demanding role PMs like this is that either you're the role deleter/thief/whatever and are looking for targets (poorly may I add) or you're just playing super poorly right now. We have evidence that there's a role deleter out there who may or may not have multiple shots of this ability. And so you're asking people to post their role PMs. This makes sense how?

Secondly, Sho, either start doing something or stop accusing people of being scum for doing the same thing you are. If you're really think you have nothing to contribute, here, let me help you. Who did you target and why? Or if you don't feel comfortable revealing who due to role spec from Proto (which I'll address in a bit), then just tell us why you targeted them. Or how about commenting on any of the ridiculous amount of discussion that had been going on? I'm not saying you're scum, I'm just annoyed with you.

Finally, Proto. From what I've gathered from you, the majority of your reads are based off of flavor and role spec. That really seems to be all you're doing. Talking about a role removing PGO is kind of crazy to me. For one thing, a PGO would probably have claimed if they knew about it. Second, it would be a bastard mod move to put a role in the game that removed the alliance cop's power and just the alliance cop's power like you suggested before. This has been stated to not be a bastard mod game. And by suggesting this, all you're doing is making people paranoid and more likely to hide things. Moving past that, flavor does not replace scumhunting. It may make it seem easier, but there's no reason to make assumptions like that. Especially when last game, character alignment in the actual game had nothing to do with character alignment in the mafia game. You're largely clogging up the game with really improbable theories and scumhunting on weak flavor and it seems to me like you're just trying to skim by on theories and flavor. Would lynch.

##Vote:Proto

[Percivalé]

Hello I'm still not 100% here, my contributions will not be optimal but I've been (kinda) keeping up.

Mancer. It's easy to say he's being Mancer, I let him slide for his asking people to post their role PMs because I felt it was an honest mistake. It read to me like he didn't quite understand what he was asking (maybe he thought everyone fullclaimed already so he just wanted full proof through their role PMs) but uh...

And players who keep over emphasising that they're hiding something for the good of town have more often turned out to be floundering anti-town than town who are actually trying to help town.

The only example you had of this was me in CMV, right? It's a lot different in this context. In CMV what I tried to hide was that I knew scum tried to kill me. I fumbled around with it because it was lategame and around a time most of the game had claimed, and I claimed without telling them that one part of my role and backpedaled super hard to keep it a 'secret' when everyone knew there was an SK at that point so yeah, that's scummy.

You're asking people to claim their full roles earlygame for pretty much no reason, except to give you 'relief' that they're not hiding anything when 1. people can still fake their role PMs anyway; Elie has offered to write false PMs for EVERYONE, not just scum, and 2. you apparently didn't read where some of the people who claimed did have extra parts to their roles that they didn't feel like sharing. It looks like an attempt to cleverly rolefish + look like concerned town and push suspicion on people for not wanting to hand scum free information.

##Unvote

##Vote: Mancer

There's no sense in voting Rocker anymore until he does something/is subbed out.

[scorri]

Votals, starting from Prims votals a while ago:

MancerNecro (6) - eclipse, BBM, Shinori, Snike, Prims, Levity

BBM (2) - Mancer, SB

Rocker64 Kay (1) - Xinnidy

Serious Bananas (2) - Manix, Helios

Bluedoom (1) - Sho

Xinnidy (1) - Bluedoom

eclipse (1) - Paulina

Proto (1) - scorri

Voteless Scum (5): Blitz, Lucina, NNR, Reinfleche, Kay

These should be right

[Percivalé]

Oh whoops, ninja'd by Kay sub. I'll be looking forward to what Kay says in the future.

I will address this in postgame.

I hope you don't take offense to this, but unless it's a part of a post restriction/role restriction I don't see any other reason why you have to sound like that when addressing people in a mafia game. Reading your post before I had to duck out (for unrelated reasons) made me super tense and while I think you're town I hope you tone it down a little bit, unless you can't by threat of modkill. Paulina didn't address you in a hostile manner at all, and BBM even apologized--I apologized to NNR too because he interpreted my tone as harsh when I didn't mean to sound that way. If it doesn't improve I might have to avoid reading your posts and I don't want to do that.

anyway back to the game now

I'll address why I think BBM will be a mislynch after I get back from running errands, but as time passes I actually feel a little bit worse about Marth for reasons stated.

[NekoRex]

I voted Mancer awhile ago

[Shinori]

I voted Mancer awhile ago

You're a cat anime thing and those don't exist. Thus you don't count. But you do exist so it cancels your previous self out which also cancels you out because that means a cat anime thing exists but doesn't exist which causes the universe to explode in on itself which causes our universe to chance and suddenly WE ARE IN A FIRE EMBLEM AND POKEMON WORLD COMBINED INTO ONE.

Praises to Neko!

[Percivalé]

what was the point of that post

[NekoRex]

BBM has been confirmed Kiwi by none other than our mod, so if we don't want to lynch Kiwi (who I think flavor wise should be town) we should stop this crazy BBM voting spree (unless you have sore reason to think Kiwi is scum that is

Oh snap, I did not notice that Elieson already confirmed that BBM = Kiwi. I'm pretty sure Kiwi is Town so ##Unvote: BBM

NO. STOP. CEASE. This is WRONG. Don't do this. This is NOT HOW YOU CONFIRM TOWN.

We're playing a Mafia game. That means flavor means absolutely jack fucking shit here. That Kiwi claim? Just as easily fake as it is real. Who's to say that the PM isn't just a safeclaim and BBM isn't actually some other character with a scum role?

You need to skip past the "Hi I'm Character X" and go straight to the "This is my role". Period.

And for the love of god STOP TRYING TO OUTGUESS THE MOD

Don't you guys also see the inconsistency in what BBM has claimed. AFAIK, he's claimed Announcer then now changed his stance to he's hiding something from town.

Okay, hold on a second, I want to see some quotes here. Where did BBM actually say there was more to his role? That'sa legitimate reason to vote for BBM now.

Shinori rants at Mancer

Shinori, read the damn post before you jump to conclusions. Mancer's saying BBM is being inconsistent, the post had nothing to do with trying to discern if a role PM was fake.

[Percivalé]

Yeah actually Neko has 100% good points could we dumb down on the flavorspec

Until we get more information (flips!!!!), earlygame flavorspec is just going to flood town discussion with bullshit. The random cultspec is a good example.

[Shinori]

Shinori, read the damn post before you jump to conclusions. Mancer's saying BBM is being inconsistent, the post had nothing to do with trying to discern if a role PM was fake.

I didn't say anything about the role pm being fake. I was getting pissed of about stuff like this:

Personally, I don't understand what's really wrong with asking claimed roles for their role PMs. It helps to give us to verify their claims.

To a much, much lesser extend this:

Don't you guys also see the inconsistency in what BBM has claimed. AFAIK, he's claimed Announcer then now changed his stance to he's hiding something from town. AFAIK, hiding something from town AND lying about and changing his stances like that = scum.

If you want an example where I had a hunch like this and was right, look back at CMV mafia where Levity the SK (Elevatorstuck) tried out the same "I'm hiding something for town's benefit" and withheld "information" from town. And Levity flipped anti-town then, so I think that this line of questioning is definitely worth something, ignoring any other role PM shenanigans that helped me get BBM to slip up.

And then this:

If town really doesn't want me to continue pursuing the role PMs, I won't, but I'd still like it if people claim with their role PMs in the future.

Half of his post was him trying to put forth reasoning as to why people should show their role pms.

I read the post and I commented on what I wanted to comment on. A lot of his past posts I've seen over the past few pages have involved role pm to some extent. Part of it is him trying to explain why people should show their role pms even though the majority of the people in the thread have stated they don't want that.

what was the point of that post

There wasn't one.

Levity what are your thoughts on Loocy? Just curious. I'm kind of annoyed at how she claimed and then left and I have a lot of stuff I could say about her but I don't see it as being much help.

My top scum reads at the moment are Lucy, Mancer, Xinnidy and Paulina. Which makes me wary since a few of them are more or less newer players so that makes me kind of doubt my reads.

Okay, hold on a second, I want to see some quotes here. Where did BBM actually say there was more to his role? That'sa legitimate reason to vote for BBM now.

Do you think it's a more legitimate reason to vote him over mancer? Wouldn't it actually be smarter to hide something from the open if you didn't want Mafia to know about it? If anything I would say that would be what was implied.

[NekoRex]

I think the more reasonable point Mancer made is that BBM supposedly is being inconsistent about what he is saying, that's at least valid. Not a good enough reason to switch but valid.

It's one thing if BBM said "if I have more to my role I don't want you to know about it" but then there's "yes that is my full role" and then later said "oh wait no", which is why I want quotes or at least a post to point me towards.

[Percivalé]

I don't know what to think of Lucina, I think it's scummy that she claimed and went AWOL without doing anything else but what can we really do?

[Snike]

I am here and compiling another one of my point-form posts but I want to make a quick remark wrt Mancer's 'point' against BBM.

According to his(the meteor punk's) ISO, BBM claimed Announcer and posted his role PM with just Announcer, but he didn't say explicitly that he didn't have a secondary role. If you look back to like post 141 on Night 0, he got defensive about whether or not he had a second part to his role, so I don't think BBM's been acting inconsistently wrt his claim.

Now back to you, Tom Professor Bizzu.

[Helios]

Alright so this isn't getting anywhere and is kinda pointless.

##Unvote (SB)

##Vote Mancer

Yeah I'm late to the party I know. Before I didn't really look too much at the BBM/Mancer debate since a lot of it was tl;dr but a closer look at this now I see why he has a wagon. As people have already mentioned, the role pm inquiry was pointless, especially since he's fishing pretty hard for more info out of BBM, which screams scummy play. You say you're not fishing for info since people have already claimed, but you don't believe their claims 100% do you? Hence why you're asking to see them. Quite the contradiction. Other than his attacks on BBM (can we consider this tunneling?), he hasn't really done much else. Also I think Proto made a good point wrt Mancer's whole "hiding info = scum" argument.

That's the only thing I agree with Proto on though. He's probably the biggest perpetrator of pseudocontribution this game with all the role/flavor spec, and I really don't like how he's clearing BBM because of a character name in the flavor. Last I checked flavor is just flavor, and not really scumhunting material. I wouldn't mind this lynch either. Inb4 Kay whiteknights him now that she's in the game.

Yes I realized that I haven't touched on everything since there's an absolute shit ton of posts to sift through, and I'll try my best to touch on as many things I possibly can before phase end, so bear with me here.

[Prims]

Proto, put a vote down somewhere. Assuming BBM is clear on character is dumb as h*ck since a half competent mod will give scum at least a few important characters on their safelist to prevent this kind of outguessing.

[Elieson]

I hate doing Votals

MancerNecro (8) - eclipse, BBM, Shinori, Snike, Prims, Levity, NekoRex, Helios

BBM (2) - Mancer, SB

Rocker64 Kay (1) - Xinnidy

Serious Bananas (1) - Manix

Bluedoom (1) - Sho

Xinnidy (1) - Bluedoom

eclipse (1) - Paulina

Proto (1) - scorri

Voteless (4): Blitz, Lucina, Reinfleche, Kay

Phase ends in approximately 18.5 hours.

With 11 required to hammer, Mancer is at L-3.

[BBM]

I agree that most of Proto's contribution has been role and flavour spec, but I can't see why he as mafia would want to clear a townie on that. Maybe if I was about to get lynched, he might do it for townie points, but at that point the lynch was moving away from me anyways. What Proto is doing is dumb, and he needs to start contributing in a better way, but I can't see scum intent in what he's doing right now.

[Prims]

lol i was gonna post votals but elie cut me

Having literally only one wagon right now is kinda ???. I can see Proto pretending BBM is clear as scum if he were trying to buddy a townie or act oblivious to protect a scumbuddy.

Shinori, how is Paulina scum not the most obvious townie in the game? Considering that the post you attacked was a catch-up post and not her final opinions on the thread...

[Prims]

If Mancer has an important roleclaim, he should be posting it now and not 3 hours away from deadline, btw.

[Snike]

Tide Canadian goes in, tide Australian goes out. You can't explain that.

-Got it NNR. WRT BBM you may want to check my ISO to see the other third of the arguments.

-Hi rein. Don't go missing.

-BBM take notes. Proto's post is basically a case study on how to waffle/rolespec poorly /meta improperly. Like unless you're secretly Rapier in disguise, I don't think this post (#519) is remotely productive.

-Prims brings up a point I didn't even know. Stop it you're making me feel like a failure of a mafia player.

-@Paulina: :/ I'm still less than amused by my prior remarks, but enough of that for now. I think you're missing/downplaying the extent of BBM's overreaction, so I advise you to start reading from the second half of this post on, instead of just reading the ISOs individually. That way I don't have to feel like Kellam anymore.

Also, for the record, OMGUS would be like someone not named the cop voting for you, and you'd vote back almost immediately without building a case.

-Eclipse I will damn well out you as a town read if I so please, which is when it sets you up to be nightkilled. I wish I could get away with posting like eclipse, ie with some sort of word efficiency. Then I could actually be productive sometimes!

-Blitz don't flavor hunt. I'm glad you can see the thread and post, but please don't do that.

-Proto stop

-Mancer first of all he hasn't said that he doesn't have a second part of his role. As I mentioned earlier, as early as N0 he was defensive about the prospect of having a multi-part role.

Second of all you're using confirmation bias to prop up your assertion. If you want a counterexample see nostalgia when prims fakeclaimed as vig for the town win.

Also you and everyone else (myself included) should stop throwing around OMGUS. It's a shitty epicmafia term that needs to go die in a fire.

Also also you need to RTFT or at least RTFD1. R stands for read in both acronyms.

-Good point about role != alliance but you don't need to provide examples for that, especially given we had an argument N0 about this.

-. . .

CITE YOUR BLOODY POSTS IF YOU ARE GOING TO CALL SOMEONE OUT ON SHEEPING AND YOU ARE NOT GOING THROUGH THE THREAD IN A RELATIVELY ORDERLY MANNER, CRETIN.

This accusation drives me crazy, given that it appears that you haven't done the required readings and are just lazy enough to cover your opposition in a blanket statement. That's my job Which in turn means it's frustratingly hard to argue it.

I can't see your Paulina angle either given her post ~5 hours before your remark, which sort of irritates me more.

-Shinori 10 outta 10 for productive posting. I'd just like you to comment on more recent events, please?

-commentary on Mancer works. And makes sense. Maybe raeg a bit less, but I guess you get a pass considering what's in red above me.

-Manix stop ninjaing me with your logical points that I swear pop into my head at times. On a more serious note why is your vote still on SB, who hasn't shown up since he said he was going to make a content post?

-Proto stop it: Go read SFMM's postgame for why flavor claiming is bad.

-Mancer just go home and read the thread. Claiming someone is scum because of vote-hopping, a high-strung announcement, and they're omitting a part of their role they haven't claimed is hardly scumhunting. And no the role PM thing is sticking around because people don't get off scott free like that IRL.

-A) Night 0 was a thing.

-B) Counterexample: Prims in Nostalgia mafia. Stop using confirmation bias.

-Proto see my previous remarks

-Manix's example works as well.

-Proto wtf you're making good points. Why weren't we seeing this earlier?

-Mancer cite or get out.

-proto wry. You were doing so good with your previous post, too.

-Mancer I don't see your point or who you're referring to. Cite BBM's posts if you're referencing him.

-I don't see how proto is higher on the Lynch tier list than Mancer, but the complaints by scorri are valid. I want to look into him at some point tomorrow after we have at least one flip to work with. The flavorhunting is of grave concern, however.

-Welcome back Professor Bizzu. Honest question: Is this actually standard Mancer meta???

-votals and useless, moving on..

-NNR calling out proto for the flavour hunting. Why do I feel like a Slowbro? Already addressed BBM, anyways...

-Shinori explains his criticism of Mancer, asks for reads about lucina then provides his own, nothing to see here.

-Helios your wording on talking about Proto is unclear. The flavor hunting stuff is the FH associated with Proto, right?

Aaand that's about that. tl;dr I yell at mancer for not making an argument that makes sense

I need to do some schoolwork, so bbl.

[scorri]

I'm currently voting Proto because I think that Mancer has enough votes on him for now and I want my vote to do something useful for now. Voting Mancer would do nothing. Voting Proto when I do find him to be scummy and would be perfectly ok with his lynch might do something. It is not just a pressure vote but I will switch to Mancer to get a lynch if need be.