Shining Force 2 Mafia: Game Over

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Eclipse is really rubbing me the wrong way. I don't like it when somebody else does the uncooperative thing I would change my vote on her if knew how to on this crappy phone

[Kriemhild]

Oh snap, I did not notice that Elieson already confirmed that BBM = Kiwi. I'm pretty sure Kiwi is Town so ##Unvote: BBM

ShoM, I was wondering, do you have any idea why you lost your role? Because I'm starting to think that you were concealing information about your role from us and that you have a better idea on what actually happened when you lost your role.

[MancerNecro]

Been really busy but I'll make a brief post now:

Personally, I don't understand what's really wrong with asking claimed roles for their role PMs. It helps to give us to verify their claims.

Don't you guys also see the inconsistency in what BBM has claimed. AFAIK, he's claimed Announcer then now changed his stance to he's hiding something from town. AFAIK, hiding something from town AND lying about and changing his stances like that = scum.

If you want an example where I had a hunch like this and was right, look back at CMV mafia where Levity the SK (Elevatorstuck) tried out the same "I'm hiding something for town's benefit" and withheld "information" from town. And Levity flipped anti-town then, so I think that this line of questioning is definitely worth something, ignoring any other role PM shenanigans that helped me get BBM to slip up.

If town really doesn't want me to continue pursuing the role PMs, I won't, but I'd still like it if people claim with their role PMs in the future.

Also, I feel like eclipse, for some reason is hard defending BBM, and her attitude, where she just deflected any questions and probes made at her like they are not something worth responding to pings my scum radar. They remind me of my plays in some mafia games like Strip Mafia and Schoolteacher mafia where I was found scummy by pretty much everyone for the exact same reason. I hope town will consider this in their votes.

@whoever it was who said I was OMGUS-ing: Does that mean that any scummy person can just accuse anyone and cannot be called out for it by that person? If someone attacks you, and does it scummily, and attacking them back is considered OMGUS, then it would be very hard for players to pick up and post on scumtells like that. Notice also that at that point in time, my main scumread was (and still is now) BBM and not eclipse.

If needed, I can claim my role, but I'll only do so if it is really necessary.

[MancerNecro]

Oh snap, I did not notice that Elieson already confirmed that BBM = Kiwi. I'm pretty sure Kiwi is Town so ##Unvote: BBM

ShoM, I was wondering, do you have any idea why you lost your role? Because I'm starting to think that you were concealing information about your role from us and that you have a better idea on what actually happened when you lost your role.

Proto, role confirmed =/= alliance confirmed, especially when he seems to be hiding something from us on purpose.

[MancerNecro]

Proto, role confirmed =/= alliance confirmed, especially when he seems to be hiding something from us on purpose.

I can give examples for this as well.

Elieson in both Midnight Crew Mafia and Tales of Symphonia Mafia. Elieson claimed Lynchproof in MC, and was semi-confirmed when he was not lynched when he was actually Scum Governor. Elieson was also Scum Announcer in ToS and slid under the scum radar because of that.

Hope this is enough to prove that role =/= alliance, especially when BBM is acting fishing with regard to his full role.

[MancerNecro]

I notice that the later few votes on me are kinda sheepish and Paulina's wishy washiness is getting to me. She's been very passive about everything as if she was afraid of placing her vote around, which is what some new scum players do because they're afraid of being too tied to a town player mislynch.

[Shinori]

Welp I never seem to get reads or opinions across much until something big happens, I blame newbness.

##Vote: Lucina

Claimtous I guess, I haven't voted anybody else anyways because I don't follow the other wagons much.

Also re-reading the thread because I forgot who claimed miller and other stuff.

Bolded part makes me think of newbie scum who doesn't want to piss off town.

How many times must I say the vote is purely for pressure?

And your actions about the result just so happen to rub me the wrong way and that happens to be a read

Saying the vote is for pressure is about as useful as outting as cop N0. You should know that.

Is this the part of the show where we all claim now? Well even if it isn't, I probably should to maybe get some votes off of me (although I kinda doubt it).

Frankly, I really didn't like this reaction. She basically came and went OH LET ME CLAIM BEFORE I FINISH READING THE THREAD. Either that or she skimmed. Both make me think of scum or SK's that aren't that interested. However the claim is basically a vig variant as stated multiple times and that makes me split on lynching her. I'll just keep an eye on her for now. She needs to do more than just nothing though.

##Unvote

##Vote: Rocker

I had no reason to vote on lucina based on how fickle and lurkish I know her meta to be (yes metaspec blahblah blame me if you want), if the role cop was a lie then I have no real reason to vote her, as my really early vote was RVS.

I'll post something more after I have dinner.

You had no reason to vote her except for the 'supposed' cop claim of her being guilty. That should be plenty enough of a reason to vote her normally. You really haven't been doing much I don't think.

Lucina

Why does thy not even try, and goes the lazy way like always

siiiiiiigh

Shouldn't have joined if you're gonna draft FE13 all day erryday and forget this exists. ;/

You really seem unmemorable. These two posts really made me not like you at the moment.

Oh my gosh, there is so much crap going on here. ._. I believe we were at nine pages when I logged off last night. D1, you are a cruel mistress.

I need to go out for awhile, but I've just spent at least an hour trying to catch up, so I want to leave some quick impressions. This will be almost entirely reaction; please excuse the lack of scumhunting. I don't know what to make of Prims vs. Lucina. I thought Prims' initial claim and his subsequent posts sounded 100% legit. Lucy's claim threw me for a loop, because any variant of vig is easily provable. But that being said, her entire post felt sketchy. It was essentially just her roleclaim, with no further clarification on why she would've read scum. (I don't believe she's a miller?) So either Prims is faking, or she's mafia.

Why would Prims make that up if he was scum? If Lucy flipped town, it would reflect horribly on him, and he'd probably be an instant D2 lynch.

On an unrelated note, this BBM vs. Eclipse thing has been a constant distraction from the thread's main dialogue. I understand that both of you think the other is shady, but can we put that on the back burner until D2? There are several revelations that need to be attended to first (i.e. Prims vs. Lucina). Neither of you are on the line for the lynch atm.

I realize this post has been essentially all reaction. I'm going to hang out with my mom and her BF tonight for a few hours (we're playing Scrabble Deluxe, woo). I'll try to be back by 9 PST. I had to skim from page 18, so I'm going to reread from there and contribute more scumhunting.

I agree with the first bolded part. However some things that bugged me about Paulina's post:

1. She says she say Lucina's claim and it threw her for a loop. then stats that she thinks either prims is faking or she's mafia. So she saw Lucina's claim but didn't read enough of the thread to see the multiple posts talking about Prim's normal actions? Really?

2. Blah blah why would prims do that as scum on day 1. Obviously missed that prims didn't actually do what he said he did.

3. Second bolded part annoys me. She kidna comments on the BBM vs Eclipse stuff doesn't take a side and then just backs off of it.

She ended up admitting that she was skimming but I still don't like that. Gonna finish up my re-read and make another post after this.

[Shinori]

BBM, I'm not role fishing. Those three who I asked role PMs from have already claimed their roles. What other thing could anyone of you three have in your role PMs other than your roles which already have been claimed?

I'm asking for a Vig CC to see if Lucina's weird claim and claim time can be trusted. Since no Vigs have CCed, I actually think that it is very likely that Lucina is meant to be town's Vig with her weird CPR Doctor role.

Or it could just be that town has no vig and she's an sk or something. Don't ask for people to claim.

Been really busy but I'll make a brief post now:

Personally, I don't understand what's really wrong with asking claimed roles for their role PMs. It helps to give us to verify their claims.

Don't you guys also see the inconsistency in what BBM has claimed. AFAIK, he's claimed Announcer then now changed his stance to he's hiding something from town. AFAIK, hiding something from town AND lying about and changing his stances like that = scum.

If you want an example where I had a hunch like this and was right, look back at CMV mafia where Levity the SK (Elevatorstuck) tried out the same "I'm hiding something for town's benefit" and withheld "information" from town. And Levity flipped anti-town then, so I think that this line of questioning is definitely worth something, ignoring any other role PM shenanigans that helped me get BBM to slip up.

If town really doesn't want me to continue pursuing the role PMs, I won't, but I'd still like it if people claim with their role PMs in the future.

No I am fed up with this. STOP TALKING ABOUT GOD DAMN ROLE PMS. Holy mother of god. I keep seeing these posts. and you arguing about it. No one wants people to post their role pm's you seem to be the only person who wants to see them. Drop the damn argument. Multiple people keep saying DON'T SHOW YOUR ROLE PMS!!!!! I'm sure you can see that. So please just shut up about it and stop asking for them. Drop saying anything about it and focus on other more pressing matters like finding scum using anything else except peoples god damn role pms. I swear to god if you say anything else about another role pm I'm just going to policy lynch you to make you shut up.

ANYWAY. I finished most of my reread for the most part and I want to ISO a few specific people, mainly Xinnidy, Paulina, and mancer. I also want to review the bbm/eclipse stuff that has happened. So gimme some time. I should be up all day but I might not be home all day.

[Grace]

tl;dr of more thoughts right now:

proto we need to stop staying on the sho point; we're well past it. no one really cares about it anymore, gonna do something more productive?

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mancer i'm sorry but those last posts are really not helping your case any. hiding stuff from town =/= scummy because, for example, if someone has two parts to their role, and wants to keep one a secret from the mafia, WHY WOULD YOU WANT THEM TO OUT IT??? Giving mafia more information = superbad.

Also, I feel like eclipse, for some reason is hard defending BBM

because arguing with someone so much is defending them? don't make me laugh. if you would like to elaborate on this point, I'd like to see why you think clipsey is hard defending BBM.

also your posts are literally not achieving anything productive towards finding scum. You're rolefishing superhard, and you're hung up on the role PM's idea. Anything else you're really doing isn't helping either.

-

sidenote: BBM isn't towncleared by role because the announcer could be misleading in saying that it was from Kiwi (if scum!announcer). pls stop assuming that (looking at you, proto).

see an earlier post though for why i don't think bbm is a good lynch anyway

-

also pls stop using OMGUS so flippantly; it literally means to vote someone ONLY because they voted you, nothing else. please stop misusing it, because I've seen a few people doing it. learn to lexicon people (thank god we can use WIFOM properly in context)

[Kriemhild]

Been really busy but I'll make a brief post now:

Personally, I don't understand what's really wrong with asking claimed roles for their role PMs. It helps to give us to verify their claims.

Please explain how it will verify their claims. Also, please explain what benefit this verification will give us.

Don't you guys also see the inconsistency in what BBM has claimed. AFAIK, he's claimed Announcer then now changed his stance to he's hiding something from town. AFAIK, hiding something from town AND lying about and changing his stances like that = scum.

hiding something from town =/= scum. If you want to insist that it is, then you're scum yourself since you have not claimed yet, have you?

Lying abou... wait, what did BBM lie about? If you can find one post where BBM said that he was an Announcer with NO OTHER ABILITY OR ATTRIBUTES whatsoever, then yes, he would be lying if there actually is more to his role. However, I never heard BBM say that he had absolutely nothing to hide so I don't see any apparent lying here.

Proto, role confirmed =/= alliance confirmed, especially when he seems to be hiding something from us on purpose.

I am not doing it based on role, I am doing it based on flavor. Kiwi is part of the Shining Force, he's a playable character, a good guy. SF2 has plenty of bad guys and I really think the Mafia is made of Zeon and his lesser demons. i.e. Kiwi is not Mafia. Therefore, BBM is not Mafia. As Blitzy said, we shouldn't lynch him unless there is reason to believe that Kiwi is Mafia.

Note that Blitzy's logic does not mention his announcer ability at all i.e. we don't care about the role.

[MancerNecro]

Shinto, apparently, you have just read the first part of my first post in that series of posts and attacked me because of that. Look at my subsequent posts (they shouldn't be that hard to find cause they're just below that particular post), and you'll see I have posts that are based around forcing people to show their role PMs are based off of actual hunting.

Even in that particular portion that you have posted, I had placed a read on BBM that has NOTHING to do with role PMs except for the last part where I say that this slip only happened because I asked for role PMs, which at this point, is irrelevant in the argument against BBM.

[MancerNecro]

Shinori* not Shinto

[MancerNecro]

@Manix: Might I mention that I've not voted eclipse and that I'm already off the whole role PM thing? Do I need to quote posts where I made reads without it?

@Proto: I don't think the canon playable characters might be good here. I also don't know the source content well, so I don't really care who's what at this moment. All I care is that BBM has been acting fishy to me.

[Grace]

you know what i was gonna make another post but screw that

i'm going to sleep

one last thing: mancer; is the only reason you're voting bbm because of his supposed "slip" and other stuff related around his roleclaim?

[Grace]

@Manix: Might I mention that I've not voted eclipse

Then why bring it up? Does eclipse "hard defending" BBM mean she's scum? Or what? I still want an answer as to why you think that.

point taken on role pm stuff but damned if i'm not noting that you've done it already

yeah okay NOW i'm going to sleep

[MancerNecro]

@Verifying claims: It helps to substantiate their claims. Since scum would have to actually wait for Eli to craft their role PMs, they won't essentially have them on hand and might hesitate or drag their role PM in order to have Eli have time to craft it. That's my train of thought for that whole shenanigan. Now, unless someone wants me to clarify further on this, I'm dropping this issue.

@Hiding information: Might I point out that never in any game have town benefitted from player who tried to hide information from town in this manner. Refer to the example I brought up from CMV where literally everyone told me to drop a matter and I'm proven right that Elevatorstuck/Levity was anti-town. Unless someone can essentially find me an example of a town player hiding some things from town and town winning because of that, I will not be convinced.

[Kriemhild]

@Proto: I don't think the canon playable characters might be good here. I also don't know the source content well, so I don't really care who's what at this moment. All I care is that BBM has been acting fishy to me.

Okay, if you don't know the source content, that's fine. I do, however, and there is a very clear distinction between who's good and who's evil on Shining Force II. It would be incredibly stupid for Elieson to make one of the good guys a Mafia member. Kiwi would definitely be aligned with the Shining Force. I don't blame you for suspecting BBM but he's cleared in my eyes.

[Grace]

god so much material, i just can'y decide to sleep

mancer: pretty much any game with an investigative role that gets enough reports to clear people/guilty people. they hide themselves from the town until the time is right, does that make them scum?

[Grace]

sidenote: BBM isn't towncleared by role because the announcer could be misleading in saying that it was from Kiwi (if scum!announcer). pls stop assuming that (looking at you, proto).

proto pls look at this and respond

you're delving too far into flavor and honestly that's not a replacement for scumhunting

[Kriemhild]

@Verifying claims: It helps to substantiate their claims. Since scum would have to actually wait for Eli to craft their role PMs, they won't essentially have them on hand and might hesitate or drag their role PM in order to have Eli have time to craft it. That's my train of thought for that whole shenanigan. Now, unless someone wants me to clarify further on this, I'm dropping this issue.

Night 0 existed. Mafia members would have had plenty of time to have their fakeclaims crafted.

@Hiding information: Might I point out that never in any game have town benefitted from player who tried to hide information from town in this manner. Refer to the example I brought up from CMV where literally everyone told me to drop a matter and I'm proven right that Elevatorstuck/Levity was anti-town. Unless someone can essentially find me an example of a town player hiding some things from town and town winning because of that, I will not be convinced.

Uh, you realize that every single Townie that has not yet claimed is hiding information from the Town, right? I am sure there are plenty of games where the Town won because of some very good role like Doc or Cop which the Mafia would have killed/roleblocked if those roles were revealed early on. By default, you should hide your role unless you have a good reason to reveal it. I see no good reason why BBM should reveal any other aspects of his role.

[MancerNecro]

I'll go and ISO eclipse soon, since I realise that I've misse the whole BBM vs eclipse argument. If there really was such an argument, then eclipse suddenly buddying up to and defending BBM is suspicious.

She echoed his points, as I've stated before, and made indirect defenses of BBM through attacking me.

[Grace]

also further on the point (proto you're a legend, you put it better than i did)

giving out too much information lets mafia make far more informed kills (eg: MC where BBM crumbed watcher, othin had claimed tracker, etc. we knew there wasn't a cop, so we wanted them dead asap

battle city mafia some time ago we knew everything by like the end of N1 and took out key threats early (like tracker).)

seeing a pattern here? don't give out too much information when it isn't necessary, it helps mafia more than the town.

[Grace]

i need to get out of this thread before i forget key details in arguments

bye

[Kriemhild]

sidenote: BBM isn't towncleared by role because the announcer could be misleading in saying that it was from Kiwi (if scum!announcer). pls stop assuming that (looking at you, proto).

Not by role, but by character. Announcer may be misleading but what about the host?

To start things off, you hear a message over HQ loudspeakers from Kiwi that you can't seem to ignore no matter how hard you try.

If Kiwi was BBM's fakeclaim, and BBM was someone else, then why would Elieson say that the message was from Kiwi?

[Grace]

If Kiwi was BBM's fakeclaim, and BBM was someone else, then why would Elieson say that the message was from Kiwi?

because it would be part of a theoretical scum!announcers role? damned if I know, it's just you're not considering every possibility (remember; i still wouldn't want to lynch bbm)

okay actually going now i'm really good at this honest