Shadow Mir Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) Second seals also seem pretty common. There are a couple of enemies which drop them, chests with them in and there's bound to be an Anna shop which opens up with one in it. And this is all before chapter 16 when they become buyable anyway. First off, Anna shops are banned. Second, there aren't THAT many Second Seals available before chapter 16. Edited April 28, 2013 by Levant Fortner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) Also, I cringe everytime someone mentions nosferatu ._.. So overrated.Nosferatu is transformative for a unit like Miriel (high Mag and Spd, low Def and Res). Without Nosferatu, Miriel has a terrible enemy phase. With it, she has a great enemy phase. Sorecerer Miriel has the offense to ORKO most units with Nosferatu (Focus, Anathema, and Vengeance let her ORKO tougher foes). Nosferatu lets her take on an infinite number of enemies (excluding Counter Warriors, Longbow Snipers, Mire Sorcerers, and enemies with Killer weapons). That said, Miriel does have early-game troubles. The only units who want her pair-up bonuses are Avatar, Lissa, and Maribelle. But Miriel can't grow with a Lissa or Maribelle pair-up. Avatar has a lot of great pair-up options, but one shouldn't discount Miriel. Miriel's Mag boost gives Avatar the Atk he needs to 2HKO all enemies at 1-2 range. With or without an Avatar pair-up it's tough sledding getting Miriel to gain levels. 1-2 range makes it easy for her to get in on the action, but she doubles little without a Spd pair-up and she has poor durability no matter what. Come mid-game, Miriel has viable support partners in Libra and Henry. Vaike has an easier time getting experience early on, but he's still in a tough spot. None of his supports boost Spd and Def (except Sully, who doesn't boost Spd enough to get Vaike doubling). If he gets the +Spd support he needs to double, then he has to deal with that 5 Def and 0 Res at base. This limits his enemy phase for quite a while. But while Vaike's early-game is a little better than Miriel's, his mid-game is worse. While Miriel can re-class to Dark Mage and Nos-tank by C14, Vaike needs to get to level 5 Hero before his enemy phase becomes close to as good. It's a tough call between these two. Maybe Vaike ought to get the nod, because this game throws +Spd supports at him - making him easier to train. Edit: On the topic of Second Seals before C16. Chapter 8: Renown Chapter 8: Village Chapter 12: Enemy Drop Paralogue 12: Chest Chapter 15: Village Paralogue 5: Enemy Drop Assuming we recruit Morgan, there are 5-6 Second Seals available before C16. If Lissa was married, we're likely to recruit Owain in Paralogue 5 before C16. The first two Second Seals are the most valuable, and I wouldn't suggest that we use them on Miriel. The C12 and P12 Second Seals are moderately valuable, and I would suggest using one of these to re-class Miriel to Dark Mage. The C15 and P5 Second Seals are very nearly worth 2500G, because purchaseable Second Seals are right around the corner. Edited April 28, 2013 by aku chi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fir Coat Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Vaike has an easier time getting experience early on, but he's still in a tough spot. None of his supports boost Spd and Def (except Sully, who doesn't boost Spd enough to get Vaike doubling). If he gets the +Spd support he needs to double, then he has to deal with that 5 Def and 0 Res at base. He also has 29 base HP with a guaranteed proc each level and a 50% Def growth. Vaike's Hard mode durability problems are really overrated aside from against mages, which I agree he should avoid most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Miriel is probably the best pair up option for +SPD MU. You'll stop needing Chrom support to double by Ch3/4 at the latest, and after that Miriel's giving +8 damage on every attack BEFORE supports/double digit stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Miriel is probably the best pair up option for +SPD MU. You'll stop needing Chrom support to double by Ch3/4 at the latest, and after that Miriel's giving +8 damage on every attack BEFORE supports/double digit stats. That would hurt her exp, in which case she wont get to dark mage in time. Ricken must be a godlike +spd avatar pair up partner too with that logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitoari Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 That would hurt her exp, in which case she wont get to dark mage in time. Ricken must be a godlike +spd avatar pair up partner too with that logic. I wasn't necessarily considering DM, but she definitely makes better use of the exp she would be getting compared to Ricken (main problem is his abysmal speed.) The modus operandi for character comparisons at the moment seems to be "do test runs", especially since we don't have most enemy stats/growth rates. They'd be easy to compare since they join at the same time and whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 That would hurt her exp, in which case she wont get to dark mage in time. Ricken must be a godlike +spd avatar pair up partner too with that logic.It's not difficult to train Miriel with an Avatar support. Whenever enemy phase isn't needed (generally on the last couple turns of a map), Miriel can grab the player phase kill. With +Mag and +Spd from the Avatar, Miriel can ORKO most anything. This doesn't hurt Avatar much, because Avatar is likely to level cap by C8 anyway. I did this on my first playthrough, BTW. Foolishly, I promoted Miriel to Dark Knight. She had an arc of usefulness due to the +7 Def, but the swords were worthless and she just wasn't durable enough lategame. I should have gone Dark Mage -> Sorcerer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) I don't really understand how Ricken is so far apart from Miriel. His speed is fixable with tonics and the like, which is what people seem to assume we're doing for Nowi. He'll be probably the same level as a trained Miriel upon joining, and can help out fine on his join chapter with meaty chip damage from Elwind and a good starting position. Speaking on enemy stats, I started logging them. [spoiler=Minimum Stats]Prologue Name Class LV HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Mov Weapon Rank Equipment Skills Garrick Barbarian 3 25 10 0 6 9 3 3 0 - Axe C Hand Axe Gamble Ruffian Myrmidon 1 19 5 0 7 8 6 1 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Avoid +10) Ruffian Myrmidon 1 19 5 0 7 8 6 1 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Avoid +10) Ruffian Mage 1 17 0 6 4 5 4 0 1 5 Tome C Thunder (Focus) Ruffian Mage 1 17 0 6 4 5 4 0 1 5 Tome C Wind (Focus) Ruffian Barbarian 1 21 7 0 3 4 3 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Gamble) Ruffian Myrmidon 1 19 5 0 7 8 3 1 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Avoid +10) Ruffian Barbarian 1 21 7 0 3 4 6 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Gamble) Chapter 1 Name Class LV HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Mov Weapon Rank Equipment Skills Risen Chief Fighter 3 29 11 0 10 7 7 4 0 5 Axe C Hand Axe HP +5 Risen Fighter 1 21 9 0 6 6 5 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Zeal, HP +5) Risen Mercenary 1 20 8 0 10 9 4 2 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Patience) Risen Archer 1 19 7 0 10 7 3 1 0 5 Bow C Bronze Bow (Prescience) Risen Fighter 1 21 9 0 6 6 5 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Zeal, HP +5) Risen Fighter 1 21 9 0 6 6 5 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Zeal, HP +5) Risen Fighter 1 21 9 0 6 6 5 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Zeal, HP +5) Risen Mercenary 1 20 8 0 10 9 4 2 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Patience) [spoiler=Maximum Stats]Prologue Name Class LV HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Mov Weapon Rank Equipment Skills Garrick Barbarian 3 25 10 0 6 9 3 3 0 - Axe C Hand Axe Gamble Ruffian Myrmidon 1 19 6 0 8 9 7 1 1 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Avoid +10) Ruffian Myrmidon 1 19 6 0 8 9 7 1 1 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Avoid +10) Ruffian Mage 1 17 0 7 5 6 5 0 2 5 Tome C Thunder (Focus) Ruffian Mage 1 17 0 7 5 6 5 0 2 5 Tome C Wind (Focus) Ruffian Barbarian 1 21 8 0 4 5 4 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Gamble) Ruffian Myrmidon 1 19 6 0 8 9 7 1 1 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Avoid +10) Ruffian Barbarian 1 21 8 0 4 5 4 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Gamble) Chapter 1 Name Class LV HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Mov Weapon Rank Equipment Skills Risen Chief Fighter 3 29 11 0 10 7 7 4 0 5 Axe C Hand Axe HP +5 Risen Fighter 1 22 10 0 7 7 6 2 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Zeal) Risen Mercenary 1 21 8 0 11 9 5 3 1 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Patience) Risen Archer 1 20 7 0 11 8 4 2 1 5 Bow C Bronze Bow (not sure) Risen Fighter 1 22 10 0 7 7 6 2 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Zeal) Risen Fighter 1 22 10 0 7 7 6 2 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Zeal) Risen Fighter 1 22 10 0 7 7 6 2 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe (Zeal) Risen Mercenary 1 21 8 0 11 9 5 3 1 5 Sword C Bronze Sword (Patience) Edited April 29, 2013 by Serious Bananas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fir Coat Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 After whatever amount of effort it takes to get Miriel to 10 she will be better as a DM/Sorc. Ricken is stuck using regular magic for the entire game. Miriel is pretty bad as a Sage aside from staff use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 I don't really understand how Ricken is so far apart from Miriel. His speed is fixable with tonics and the like, which is what people seem to assume we're doing for Nowi. He'll be probably the same level as a trained Miriel upon joining, and can help out fine on his join chapter with meaty chip damage from Elwind and a good starting position. Speaking on enemy stats, I started logging them. Prologue Name Class LV HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Mov Weapon Rank Equipment Skills Garrick Barbarian 3 25 10 0 6 9 3 3 0 - Axe C Hand Axe Gamble Ruffian Myrmidon 1 19 5 0 7 8 6 1 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword Random Ruffian Myrmidon 1 19 5 0 7 8 6 1 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword Random Ruffian Mage 1 17 0 6 4 5 4 0 1 5 Tome C Thunder Random Ruffian Mage 1 17 0 6 4 5 4 0 1 5 Tome C Wind Random Ruffian Barbarian 1 21 7 0 3 4 3 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe Random Ruffian Myrmidon 1 19 5 0 7 8 3 1 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword Random Ruffian Barbarian 1 21 7 0 3 5 6 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe Random Chapter 1 Name Class LV HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Mov Weapon Rank Equipment Skills Risen Chief Fighter 3 29 11 0 10 7 7 4 0 5 Axe C Hand Axe HP +5 Risen Fighter 1 21 9 0 6 6 5 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe Random Risen Mercenary 1 20 8 0 10 9 4 2 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword Random Risen Archer 1 19 7 0 10 7 3 1 0 5 Bow C Bronze Bow Random Risen Fighter 1 21 9 0 6 6 5 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe Random Risen Fighter 1 21 9 0 6 6 5 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe Random Risen Fighter 1 21 9 0 6 6 5 1 0 5 Axe C Bronze Axe Random Risen Mercenary 1 20 8 0 10 9 4 2 0 5 Sword C Bronze Sword Random They're likely not perfect, due to variation. I plotted the lowest stats I'd ever seen that enemy type have. Sometimes the norm is +1 higher than the stats here. My idea is to get a range of stats going, and instead of saying "Random" state the possible skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 I just mirrored the format here. That's why I put them as random, but I can edit them in I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fir Coat Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Does this tier list assume that the player knows the exact location, strength, and timing of the ambush spawns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 I'd say location, timing, and approximate strength, but no player can predict things that are subject to the RNG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 First off, Anna shops are banned. Second, there aren't THAT many Second Seals available before chapter 16. Oh right I forgot that this list banned them. I don't really understand why they were banned, considering that they do appear and exist in the game, but w/e my point doesn't really change, we don't need THAT many reclasses and a reclass on Miriel is worth it considering how good it makes her enemy phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 They're banned because of the random nature of them making it hard to argue with them, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Oh right I forgot that this list banned them. I don't really understand why they were banned, considering that they do appear and exist in the game, but w/e my point doesn't really change, we don't need THAT many reclasses and a reclass on Miriel is worth it considering how good it makes her enemy phase. Serious Bananas pretty much nailed what I would've said on merchants, but as far as second seals go, I'd say Miriel has a good deal of competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 They're banned because of the random nature of them making it hard to argue with them, I think. They're random, true, but they're not non-existant, so they should be factored in. Skirmishes even more so, as unlike with specific items in a shop, the exp from skirmishes shouldn't deviate too wildly for it to be a problem to handwave a little bit and just assume an extra level here and there, which will really help some characters catch up/hit there tipping point earlier. I'd say Miriel has a good deal of competition. Other than Panne/Sully, who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 They're random, true, but they're not non-existant, so they should be factored in. No. They are not allowed. You can buy from Anna shop, but not the special items. No Skirmishes, either. Deal With Itâ„¢. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Avatar to Peg/Dark Mage Chrom to Cavalier Fred to something that has wings Also possibly worth noting Lon'qu to Wyvern, even is it kills his sword tank, and if you're using Donny/Virion for whatever reason they want out of their base classes asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) They're banned because of the random nature of them making it hard to argue with them, I think. When discussing resource competition, you already take into account a certain probability that the character in question might not get it. So I don't see the problem with taking into account the probability of the Second Seal becoming available for purchase either. I guess the issue would be the impact of real time on the chance of a Second Seal appearing... Avatar to Peg/Dark Mage Chrom to Cavalier Fred to something that has wings Also possibly worth noting Lon'qu to Wyvern, even is it kills his sword tank, and if you're using Donny/Virion for whatever reason they want out of their base classes asap. I don't know how much weight is given to these possibilities, but there's also the possibility of making Vaike or Gregor into Barbarians, or turning Gaius into a Myrmidon or Fighter. Point is, there are plenty of good alternative ways for a Second Seal to be useful even if we don't use Miriel. Somebody is going to want it. Miriel might get more out of it (especially because she seems pretty crap without it), but it still has a cost associated with it. Edited April 28, 2013 by Anouleth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 No Anna shops makes comparing unit's performances much cleaner though. It's a lot easier to argue assuming that there are a finite number of resources in play, and can be applied to any run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fir Coat Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Morgan, Kjelle and Lucina are all in the running for SS right when they join as well and are either free or come in easy Paralouges available right off the bat. I know we aren't tiering them, but they still benefit heavily from one especially if you do something like Donnel!Morgan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Oh yeah, Cavalier Lucina is pretty great to have too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 They're banned because of the random nature of them making it hard to argue with them, I think. As far as Second Seals or Master Seals, you can basically guarantee that you'll get access to at least one by the time Avatar reaches level 20. I'd agree with those saying they shouldn't be discounted completely as far as what you can get that isn't too random in nature. Stat boosters, for example, won't be coming until later. No Anna shops makes comparing unit's performances much cleaner though. It's a lot easier to argue assuming that there are a finite number of resources in play, and can be applied to any run. It makes it repeatable, but inaccurate. And it can't be applied to just any run, only a run that follows these rules. On the same subject, I also don't understand why shopping from Spotpass teams isn't allowed. There is not even anything random about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Because not everyone has wireless Internet access? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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