Avatar the Last Airbender Mafia: D4ends 5/2 at 9:30 PM EST

[MancerNecro]

No. You explain yourself right now because this isn't fair. You're dismissing everything I say as me "victimizing" myself. You are outright ignoring any points I bring up against you because you are too busy tunneling and trying to build a case on me even if you don't have sufficient evidence to do so.

You are the one who is victimizing yourself. You're accusing me of personal attacks when none exist and no one else seems to think it exists. You're accusing me of making groundless jabs at you and interpreting everything as a personal attack. Just what.

As I already said I'll talk to you about this in postgame. I do not want to mess up the flow of the game and make it any worse for the mods.

eclipse has also said to not post anything about the matter until she finishes her ISOing, and I hope you will heed that.

[Sunwoo]

Don't patronize me. As a matter of fact, eclipse's post went up when I was writing up mine and I missed it until I posted mine. Don't tell me what to do.

[MancerNecro]

So I'm someone who can be stepped over and patronised?

"Don't tell me what to do."? Are you trying to exacerbate the issue at hand or to diffuse it?

I don't even understand why we're even arguing about this at all.

[eclipse]

HEY YOU TWO, EITHER SCUMHUNT OR STUFF IT. SNIPPY COMMENTS AREN'T HELPING!

(still compiling, this will take a while)

[BBM]

This argument is useless and doesn't really help the town in any way. You guys are talking less about the game and just yelling at each other over perceived slights at this point, whether or not they were there.

Mancer, do you have any non-flavourspec scumreads? Psych, seriously, do something. Even though not pushing your scumreads just because nobody else is pushing them is dumb, if you're going to do that, push someone. Don't just sit there and point out the obvious.

[riariadne]

Sup folks

Psych's lack of motivation is kind of concerning. If you think I'm scum and want to argue it, that's what you should do, not have a super defeatist attitude from the onset. Obviously I sure don't want to be lynched, but you seem sure I'm scum and aren't doing shit about it, which isn't good as town at all and makes you look pretty bad. So come at me.

Still definitely don't like Kay's attitude towards keeping scum alive, and I think her responses today have just hurt her case more. Probably my #1 choice for a lynch today. ##Vote: Kay

Mancer and Boron's argument is dumb

[eclipse]

My take on this mess. I HOPE this is enough to defuse things!

There's a rule against posting role PMs now. Good to know that.

Mancer, I'm willing to believe miller claim for now, but don't self-meta yourself. People will think what they will of your behavior, and you can't tell them otherwise.

BEFORE THE BEGINNING. If I really twist my neck around, I can see how this could come across as slightly pushy. However, I don't think it's healthy to view posts like these in such a manner (nor is it good for my neck). In other words, eh.

Well, I still wouldn't make assumptions without evidence.

Regardless of whether we're mass claiming elements or not, I'd be more comfortable revealing mine. I am fire nation. I am the previous Avatar.

Character claim here.

We're scrapping element claiming then?

I am slightly intrigued by Boron's claim and claiming the previous Avatar might be a little far fetched, aka possible safe claim for scum.

##Unvote

##Vote: Sangyul

Okay, the event that started it all! I don't agree with the logic, and it probably could've be worded less aggressively, but eh.

Why is it so farfetched, hm? Is it more farfetched than being a post restriction cop in schoolteacher (which, need I remind you, we got doubly lynched over)? Considering that our elements are said to be "important" and the "fire nation" in general are the villains, I'd rather just come clean with my element.

Elements are important: FIRST POST. Fire nation? This could either be a genuine slip OR Boron read the opening flavor and came to the same conclusion that I did. I don't have any idea why she claimed her character (and this post tells me nothing) but I'm not going to get on her case about it.

It's far-fetched to me because I think that it is unnecessary for you to have a character claim this early on when we're only discussing element claims.

Most of the villains in AtLA are Fire and I think the previous Avatar is too easy a way to excuse having that element, especially with the way you claimed your character.

After doing a little bit of independent research on my own character, I have come to the conclusion that some of the bad guys aren't Fire. This *might* be a slightly less graspy case if you'd pointed out that Boron had mentioned an element cop earlier.

Element is fire.

Also, Mancer, is that seriously the only reason you suspect me? Because claiming the previous Avatar as a fire nation character is "too convenient"? I claimed my character because I expected that people would want me to do so anyway (since I recall someone saying that "element claims don't mean much without character" -- especially if I'm fire).

Right now, you literally have no reason to think I'm scum other than claiming Roku is too easy of an excuse. Unless you know why certain characters are in this game and others are not, then your reason is stupid. (Hello, town!JB in Pokemon Adventures as Pokemon Fan Club President.)

This sounds like something I'd say if I were irritated. Mancer, do you have any problems with me?

The only "logical" problem I see is the fact that I don't know squat about the series, and thus wouldn't really give a crap about which character is what.

Two posts, one after another

So off this goes into hypothetical element cop, and Boron doesn't respond to Mancer's latest post (though given the time difference between the posts, it's very possible she missed it).

AND THEN THINGS QUIET DOWN, UNTIL. . .

Since when did I role grasp? Role grasp = role fish?

If anything, I was the one being role grasped/fished the most since start of phase.

My apologies for NOT getting on your case regarding this. Point this out, complete with quotes.

What is the big deal with people claiming dead characters, people? Can we kill the character-spec? At this point we know nothing except the information that's in our own role PMs. Unless your role PM gives you reason to believe that dead characters should not exist in this game, kindly cease this line of reasoning.

Mancer, I seriously think you're grasping for reasons to be suspicious of me. I already explained my wording choice for "fire" and "fire nation" in an earlier post. You can go back and read it. As for my using "coming clean", is that seriously the best reason you can come up with? What if I just happen to like that phrase, huh?

(truncated)

Again, if I twist my neck around, I *might* be able to see how this could read as offensive. . .BUT that's not a healthy position for my neck to be in, and it's not something I'd find offensive if it were aimed at me.

I'm wondering what to make of this because it isn't exclusively stated that the Fire Nation was the scum team.

Do you guys think this is a slip (like what Slayer did) or that I am thinking too much into it?

Opening flavor would like to have a word with you. (I read it as "Aang is the new Avatar, Avatar is good, and if he and his buddies are going to defeat the Fire Nation, then the Fire Nation's not good").

I don't really like Grassbridger's list post, it basically just lists stuff, contains a little bit of sheeping (particularly the points on Elieson) and allows him to just vote anyone on it and coast.

The list post in and of itself was also not useful since it was mostly fluff and "I think he's towny yet scummy" throughout it.

I don't particularly like FTP's recent play because the reluctance to vote and the obstinacy in trying to scumhunt and help town is pinging me off, especially when he brings in real life stuff as an excuse for it (you could just vote since you've proven you can post or just shut up until you reach home and can place your vote).

Post stuff like this more often. Please.

What do you think about Shinori saying that you're toen aligned?

Please do not try to make things personal in here, Boron. Is threatening me with personal attacks your only way of deflecting my suspicions?

It is Shinori's fishy claim that you're town that directs my attention back on you. Your weird claim style will also always be a point against you.

Wording differences are what allows us to see slips in claims (refer to Pokemon Mafia for the suspicions on me).

Are you telling me thay if someone else made the same wording error (like Kay with "starting") you wouldn't have at least some suspicions on them?

STOP. A personal attack ignores everything else and disparages the person behind it. If I called you an insensitive jerk, that is a personal attack. If I say your arguments are trash, that is NOT a personal attack, because it says nothing about you as a person (and everything about your argument, which is relevant to the game). If you want further elaboration, read the screaming fest that was Shining Force 2 Mafia (ESPECIALLY Prims' comments well into postgame).

tl;dr: If I really bend things around I can see how Boron could come across as slightly insulting, but nothing to the extent of which Mancer is claiming. I don't see passive-aggressive/personal attacks at all. Now, both of you, if you can find non-flavor/non-emotional reasons to push lynches, then go for it. You guys can yell at each other all you want once postgame rolls around. I ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY DO NOT WANT A REPEAT OF SHINING FORCE MAFIA 2. UNDERSTAND?

[Kay]

Sup folks

Psych's lack of motivation is kind of concerning. If you think I'm scum and want to argue it, that's what you should do, not have a super defeatist attitude from the onset. Obviously I sure don't want to be lynched, but you seem sure I'm scum and aren't doing shit about it, which isn't good as town at all and makes you look pretty bad. So come at me.

Still definitely don't like Kay's attitude towards keeping scum alive, and I think her responses today have just hurt her case more. Probably my #1 choice for a lynch today. ##Vote: Kay

Mancer and Boron's argument is dumb

Want to say anything about what's wrong with my responses today?

[MancerNecro]

That point on being role grasped was FTP and IIRC someone else trying to imply that I had some other part to my role. FTP in particular asked me about a missing part of my role at least twice.

[MancerNecro]

This argument is useless and doesn't really help the town in any way. You guys are talking less about the game and just yelling at each other over perceived slights at this point, whether or not they were there.

Mancer, do you have any non-flavourspec scumreads? Psych, seriously, do something. Even though not pushing your scumreads just because nobody else is pushing them is dumb, if you're going to do that, push someone. Don't just sit there and point out the obvious.

I pushed people and voted Psych already.

[eclipse]

That point on being role grasped was FTP and IIRC someone else trying to imply that I had some other part to my role. FTP in particular asked me about a missing part of my role at least twice.

You weren't in any danger of being lynched, so "none of your business" works just fine. There's no reason to bring it up as a point.

[Zanarkin]

Ah, I survived another day. That is amusing. In anycase I have to reread a bunch of stuff because i have been away from the computer for a while (short intermissions here and there). I will make my decision on the vote after rereading posts carefully. I'm packing right now and its 12:19 AM (finished my last Exam! First year of University is gone and done! :newyears: ) so it might actually take a while before i get on that. Sorry people :(

[Grassbridger]

Sangyul: not trying to rekindle the scuffle or anything, but Mancer's not the only one who found your claim suspicious, I mentioned it before he did. I still think it's odd, but I'm leaving it be, since it's flavor and I have nothing else to go on really. (Same for Rein.)

Eclipse: what on earth was up with your first post today? You reminded us of posts you made D1, hardly explained them any further, responded to a dead person, voted someone without much explanation (yes you explained later so I'm not holding that part against you), hinted that you'd figured out who the cop was, and made an odd prayer about not targeting slayer. How on earth is knowing who the cop is related to Kay's logic?

##vote Eclipse

[eclipse]

BACK TO MORE RELEVANT AND INTERESTING THINGS.

Timing and being somewhat willing to trust that you had info I didn't or something.

Psych didn't expand on what "all those stupid ideas" were, or why they were stupid. Considering that he used the plural, I concluded that he meant all of those options would be stupid from Shinori's point of view, instead of referring to my singular idea of keeping Shinori around. So, since the only thing Shinori could viably do besides fake a result would be to claim roleblocked, I said he couldn't keep it up for long.

I explained why I'd want to keep him around even as a fake, I see no reason why I should have answered that question more times. I'd want to eep him around for the associations and such, to see what he did. Why would I address a counterpoint that would just be rephrasing my original argument?

I'll take you on your word for the first part.

What's missing is stuff like answers to this (the second question):

Why keep him around when he's obviously faking though? Like do you seriously think that if someone was the actual Cop and they were about to get lynched, their reaction to two extra votes would be to completely leave the thread? And forget someone, this is Shinori. If he really cared, he would have thrown a major tantrum.

This is what Psych said, complete with quote. If you weren't sure, why didn't you ask him what he meant/press him further?

Grassbridger: If Prims was alive, I'd be heartily arguing with him right now. Since he's not, the least I can do is respond to the last solid thing he put out there. I'd go more into the last bit about knowing the cop, but it is in the town's best interests to keep it to myself, rather than point it out to everyone.

Based on my theory of who the cop is, I think that person might be dumb enough to target Slayer N1 after I specifically mentioned two things in my posts that should've made it clear that targeting Slayer on N1 would be a really bad idea. Thus, the PS and the two D1 posts.

(Additional PS: Why didn't you scan me last night?)

[riariadne]

Want to say anything about what's wrong with my responses today?

Sure.

I don't like 502 or 512. Your response towards being voted was pretty weak. Even though you didn't understand eclipse's case on you, you didn't really do anything about it, which is very odd. "Too bad for me" in particular caught my attention, as it's a really submissive stance to take with regards to possibly being lynched.

[Kay]

BACK TO MORE RELEVANT AND INTERESTING THINGS.

I'll take you on your word for the first part.

What's missing is stuff like answers to this (the second question):

This is what Psych said, complete with quote. If you weren't sure, why didn't you ask him what he meant/press him further?

I assumed if Psych had meant something else, he would clarify when I didn't answer his question in a way that made sense. If he wasn't back before phase end, asking for clarification wouldn't have done much more, and at least that way I was able to point something out.

Sure.

I don't like 502 or 512. Your response towards being voted was pretty weak. Even though you didn't understand eclipse's case on you, you didn't really do anything about it, which is very odd. "Too bad for me" in particular caught my attention, as it's a really submissive stance to take with regards to possibly being lynched.

3 votes on ED2 doesn't seem like that much cause for concern.

[Strege]

I don't understand a lot of what eclipse is saying in regard to roles and I would like some clarification, or at least some input that I'm more likely to understand. I appreciate the effort to mediate though.

I didn't realize people were still so hung up on Rein (I think it was Rein) saying the enemy faction was the Fire Nation. I'd assumed the same thing going in -- it's basically the only antagonistic faction from the show that has more than a couple named villains (Earth Nation is closest, and it's not that close). I'll leave my flavour opinions at that.

Sangyul has referenced eclipse's posts and vaguely crumbed some information, which is less helpful to me than eclipse's original content. She has defended herself fairly well, but as a result hasn't helped the town much despite her large amount of posts. Shinori calling her out doesn't tell me anything because of the way Shinori was talking in the end -- I'd have difficulty believing it was some kind of gambit. A large amount of posts without many reads and some weak logic means ##Vote Sangyul for me.

Psych is looking unprepared, and more than a bit scummy with his hinted-at role information and lack of reads. Give me reasons, even one reason, not to suspect you right now. I looked through Cap'n Flint's ISO and little of it strikes me as substantial (even before he left due to IRL business). Kay and SB have been posting very few reads lately -- talking about votes isn't the same thing.

[eclipse]

I don't understand a lot of what eclipse is saying in regard to roles and I would like some clarification, or at least some input that I'm more likely to understand. I appreciate the effort to mediate though.

I didn't realize people were still so hung up on Rein (I think it was Rein) saying the enemy faction was the Fire Nation. I'd assumed the same thing going in -- it's basically the only antagonistic faction from the show that has more than a couple named villains (Earth Nation is closest, and it's not that close). I'll leave my flavour opinions at that.

Sangyul has referenced eclipse's posts and vaguely crumbed some information, which is less helpful to me than eclipse's original content. She has defended herself fairly well, but as a result hasn't helped the town much despite her large amount of posts. Shinori calling her out doesn't tell me anything because of the way Shinori was talking in the end -- I'd have difficulty believing it was some kind of gambit. A large amount of posts without many reads and some weak logic means ##Vote Sangyul for me.

Psych is looking unprepared, and more than a bit scummy with his hinted-at role information and lack of reads. Give me reasons, even one reason, not to suspect you right now. I looked through Cap'n Flint's ISO and little of it strikes me as substantial (even before he left due to IRL business). Kay and SB have been posting very few reads lately -- talking about votes isn't the same thing.

All right, I'll try! Look at your own role PM. That is your role. Notice how mostly everyone hasn't directly announced what their role is? Townspeople do not want to do this, and give the mafia an idea of who to kill. Mafia does not want to do this because they are trying to act like town/they don't want to be found out on role (certain roles are absolutely, positively NOT town-aligned). Now, if I think I've figured out a powerful town role, based on deduction, I do NOT want to out this. If I am right, I am painting a bullseye on someone's head, and this is a risk I refuse to take. That's why I explained only as much as I did (going into full detail requires naming who I think the cop is).

If I got the wrong thing, lemme know!

[eclipse]

I'm terrible at getting these things in one post (I blame the furry thing next to me). SORRY!

I assumed if Psych had meant something else, he would clarify when I didn't answer his question in a way that made sense. If he wasn't back before phase end, asking for clarification wouldn't have done much more, and at least that way I was able to point something out.

3 votes on ED2 doesn't seem like that much cause for concern.

See what I did in response to Prims' last substantial post? As long as the person you're asking is alive (and paying attention), they should answer it. I know Psych is the absolute worst when it comes to asking questions, but the fact that you didn't try (and didn't explain why you didn't answer BBM) is worrying.

[Strege]

@eclipse I understand the reason for how you are communicating and I'm similarly cautious about even addressing this. Don't make vulnerable information more explicit on my account, since it'll probably do more harm than I could do good with that information. I could use just a bit more context when you address a older issues in replies though -- I'm digging through ISOs just to figure out what prompted certain discussions.

[eclipse]

@eclipse I understand the reason for how you are communicating and I'm similarly cautious about even addressing this. Don't make vulnerable information more explicit on my account, since it'll probably do more harm than I could do good with that information. I could use just a bit more context when you address a older issues in replies though -- I'm digging through ISOs just to figure out what prompted certain discussions.

All right. Do you mind quoting what you're not sure of?

[BBM]

Kay, who do you think is scummy? I'm currently finding fault with you for the reasons you gave about me last phase. You're making some prods against Psych, but you're not voting anybody and you're mostly just defending yourself.

[Strege]

All right. Do you mind quoting what you're not sure of?

"I'll take your word on the first part."

"Boron: Got it."

You saying that the mafia wasted a kill on Prims.

I'm sorry I can't actually quote this stuff; as hypocritical as it is I can't do much with my phone.

[Blitz]

All right, I am back, also, will be around tomorrow for extra classes due to the strike

first off rip Prims, but great job on getting rid of the scum before doing so

secondly

Hey guys I got hooked (obviously i failed but i was hooked).Reads when I get outta work.

since Shinori was scum rolecop, I don't think knowing the scum roles will help unless someone claims hooker, but I doubt that will happen. However, we should still be able to use night actions better by knowning the existence of this hooker {probably Tylee the bending blocker }

as in our theoretical SG goes around protecting people who might be blocked but not shot

there is also the issue of redirection, but I don't have much to say about it

so, my last vote on the day I left was on Boron and from what I see atm, her context seems just the same old to me

she vanishes with reasons, BUT whenever mancer or anyone comes in to say something about her{mainly mancer}, she seems to pop up and defends her case.

I really dont see her scum hunting in any way and she should really get to it

Mancer should probably do the same, but unlike Boron, he seems to be doing somewhat besides insulting Boron's claim {which I also agree that he should stop doing}

##Vote Boron

[Kay]

Kay, who do you think is scummy? I'm currently finding fault with you for the reasons you gave about me last phase. You're making some prods against Psych, but you're not voting anybody and you're mostly just defending yourself.

I still think you and Eli are both a bit scummy, Eli more so. I think Psych's probably just being weird, and isn't actually mafia. I'm kinda suspicious of Boron just because she's been really unmemorable. I would have voted for her a little while ago, but then that argument with Mancer and I kind of figured it might be better to let her cool off a bit and not risk provoking a ragequit or something. Which is basically over now but yeah. Also, no, I don't really expect anyone to believe that, I'm just saying it anyway because, well, it's the truth, whether it's scummy-looking or not.

##Vote: Boron I guess now that I think of it again.