Avatar the Last Airbender Mafia: D4ends 5/2 at 9:30 PM EST

[BBM]

Elie, okay, I did in fact miss the fact that you said later that the part about Mancer was sarcasm. My apologies. Doesn't change the fact that I said nothing about wincons and stuff like you're saying. All I said was that it's a possibility that the mafia have a role that would benefit from knowing people's alignments. And again, if my role was related to elements like you suggest, and I were mafia, why would I discourage element-claiming?

And now I actually am going to say something about wincons because I'm not sure if Slayer just made a big derp or a scumslip, but

For all we know, the Avatar team could be the mafia team.

My wincon states that town is Team Avatar, so either you glanced over your role PM really quickly and didn't retain the fact that it's highly unlikely for the Avatar team to be scum, or you're scum and don't know that the town is literally called Team Avatar.

[BBM]

What's more scummy about Elie's vote against me is that it's literally like his only scumread. Okay, you think Mancer's play is poor but still probably town. So your strongest read after that is my speculation? You haven't mentioned anything yet, as far as I can see, that doesn't relate to me, Mancer, or defending yourself (which really goes back to Mancer too). From your POV, this wagon against you must be total shit, but I don't see you attacking it. You're attacking me, but since I was the first vote IIRC, it's not really the same thing.

Strege, you should focus less on speculation. What do you think about the reasons people have for voting Elieson and Rein/Liquid Snake?

[Elieson]

Bbm I just said Shinori is a scumread.

[BBM]

That was like barely anything dude. And it doesn't even really make much sense. What does the fact that the game hasn't been going on for even 12 hours have to do with deciding whether or not posting useless stuff is scummy or not? Again, what do you think about the people on your wagon? What do you think about Rein?

On a side note, giving the mafia character fakes in a game with flavour is pretty standard practice, and SB's already claimed his element, so I don't really think that it matters whether or not he claims his character at this point.

My two cents about the Elie wagon are that although I think he's scummy, I wouldn't be surprised if someone on his wagon is scum trying to bus. Some of the later votes, particularly Blitz's vote, seem sort of weak to me.

[Elieson]

There could easily be an anti-town role that works off people's elements.

You didn't say mafia, you said antitown, which includes the possibility of third party, which is completely new discussion material not very related to scumHUNTING and clues at something you may know ahead of us.

Annnnnyway;

I think Rein has wagon'd reasoning, and Blitz has weird scumHUNTING logic and isn't really pushing a case well. I don't like Kay's logic either. All the other votes I really guess are fine and justified well enough, and don't scream scum to me.

Scumreads: Bbm, Shinori, rein

Also Prims who isn't doing much is sort of pinging my radar but it's still early so yea.

Though bbm that tidbit you pointed out was a neat catch, and I'll be rereading him to see if I have actual thoughts after work (which I'm going into right now)

[riariadne]

Ah man I'm not really sure what to make out of Slayer's thing. Could be a huge scumslip- really leaning that way, but I don't want to pass judgement on that too quickly. Wanna hear more from him.

Elieson I don't see how wanting to kill anti-town third parties is possibly bad. By definition they want to kill the town, so we want to get rid of them. In the context of what BBM said, he's leaving it open for the possibility of an anti-town third party, which is an option. It's a really small and trivial thing to nitpick as well.

[Strege]

I disagree with the assessment that Elieson's claims have been "badly contradictory". He believes that Mancer is miller, but says that it isn't very important. This feels like another instance of him alluding to high-level intuition or past experience, which I find makes for weak and personally confusing arguments. I would really like him to elaborate on this, or quote himself if he already did somewhere (after work I suppose). His suspicions about BBM could also use some support; collectively, they do paint something of a picture, but I've yet to see anything really convincing. Some semantic evidence has been bad enough to make me feel like Elie is deflecting.

Certain people need to post more (myself probably included, but I'm trying to keep the white noise of my inexperience to a minimum). Slayer has some explaining to do. Actual question: what is the likelihood that the PM's have inconsistent formatting? I'm assuming any inconsistency would be accidental.

[Zanarkin]

Welp, I didn't want to out myself so early, but i;'m a third party survivour.

[BBM]

Well then, this makes our job a lot easier.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Slayer

Either Slayer is telling the truth and we're just lynching somebody who's going to side with the mafia in LYLO for an easy win, or he's lying and he's scum. Either way, I have no qualms with lynching Slayer. He should probably also fullclaim his character right away to prove that he's actually a Survivor and not scum trying to bullshit. If he was scum and given a character fake, it would probably be someone who would likely be a member of the town, not someone who would likely be independent.

For the new players: Survivor is a third-party role that wins if it is alive at the end of the game. So a common (and probably optimal) strategy for survivors during LYLO/MYLO is to side with the mafia and win a joint victory with them.

[Elieson]

Lemme guess you're the Cabbages guy.

That does explain something. Bbm had a point but there have been Mafia wincons were it says "you win when you achieve parity with X" where X could have said Team Avatar. It's concievable that Mr ITP survivor isn't aware of any alliance names, which explains his comment.

Not much we can do at this point, but I've never seen an ITP out themselves so early. Is this something we should lynch? Or a Theoretical Vig could take care of it?

[Fear The Pika]

Yeah... When I get home I'll probably be voting for slayer. I'd rather vote out a confirmed third party than rl and most likely

hit a townie. We do still have 2 more days, though, so maybe something better will turn up.

[riariadne]

Very interesting. Well I suppose that solves that. What's your character?

[Prims]

If we have one, a dayvig should take care of Slayer rather than a lynch, imo. Otherwise I'm willing to switch to him at deadline.

##Unvote

##Vote: FearThePika

Lots of posts about roles and minimal scumhunting. What defines "enough to vote for somebody"? Pressure on a weak scumread is better than no vote at all. Even though you said something better could turn up in 2 days you're not doing much to make something pop up.

Rein feels like a background presence imo. Why not vote Mancer in #68? Also, what more could Slayer have given that would've changed your opinion?

Strege, who are your top scumreads right now?

[BBM]

Still down with lynching Elie if people don't want to go after the Survivor claim, because he seems to have a lot of really weak scumreads as opposed to even one good read. His strongest read still consists of "BBM said anti-town instead of mafia; must be scum!", which is pretty grasping.

FTP's attitude that a D1 lynch is a randomlynch kind of bothers me, though it might just be one that stems from playing games that rely more on roles than scumhunting. I mean, yeah, D1 is when we have the least amount of info, but that doesn't mean we can't make educated guesses. Waiting around for the Cop to out scum doesn't achieve anything, especially as they could just die N1 and leave town shit up creek without a paddle.

[Prims]

Elieson's posts don't make sense in my mind at all until I think them over for a bit so he's probably scum.

Mainly I just don't know why he's still voting BBM over his other suspects at this point.

[Elieson]

Shinori is still doing nothing and reminding us of it. Rein is around now and I'm still Indifferent on him. BBM doesn't even remember what he said but with this Slayer thing out in the open I could vote for him and have it e a placeholder or not vote for him and develop something else some more.

With the ITP outted as Slayer though, I guess my BBM case has lost reasoning.

##Unvote

##vote Shinori

Ok while I wait for Shjnori to play League for the next week I'll pop my vote here as my next highest scumread.

[Zanarkin]

My character is the Cabbage Merchant. My element is Earth. Annoying how Ellie managed to guess my character. Also BBM its quite pointless to have the town kill the third party in a lynch, you literally waste a whole day because it doesn't bring you any closer to victory. Yes i could potentially make town lose with a hammer or something but you are just assuming that i would do it. I'm a survivor i don't care who wins. I could just as easily help town get the mafia who proposes it.

[BBM]

gj giving possibly faking scum a convenient fake, Elie. Suggesting a character for him literally took out the entire purpose of him claiming his character in the first place. >_> Whatever, still perfectly okay with a Slayer lynch but if people want to leave him for now, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Elie. Back to that.

I'll wait for Shinori's "content-post" to see how scummy I find him. I definitely dislike that he just handwaved everything in the first five pages and didn't offer even a single opinion.

Not sure what to think of Elie's reasons for unvoting me. Slayer being third-party doesn't prevent me from being third-party, especially as Slayer didn't even claim a harmful third-party like he was suggesting I might be. He also unvoted while still kind of maintaining that his original reasons for voting me were good. If he'd suddenly changed his mind about his reasons, I would have thought that kind of scummier, because it would have read like capitulating just to get the pressure off, but at the same time, his original reasons weren't good, so idk.

[Fear The Pika]

If we have one, a dayvig should take care of Slayer rather than a lynch, imo. Otherwise I'm willing to switch to him at deadline.

##Unvote

##Vote: FearThePika

Lots of posts about roles and minimal scumhunting. What defines "enough to vote for somebody"? Pressure on a weak scumread is better than no vote at all. Even though you said something better could turn up in 2 days you're not doing much to make something pop up.

Rein feels like a background presence imo. Why not vote Mancer in #68? Also, what more could Slayer have given that would've changed your opinion?

Strege, who are your top scumreads right now?

I'm on my iPod, I've been out all day and have only been able to really read the thread and post fr when the game started to when I went to bed last night.

[Fear The Pika]

Bbm, the meta where I usually played is rather messed up. I'm used to everyone else relying on night riles and not day talk, so D1 for me has (literally) always been a random lynch. I have to admit, this is much nicer.

[eclipse]

Oh hey, stuff to work with! xD

I'm not really a fan of Blitz's rolefishing either. He's doing the same thing as Fear the Pika in assuming I have something more apart from my Miller role. Here's the thing: I am just a plain Miller. Any more poking will be useless and incessant poking will be rolefishing which is heavily anti-town.

Mancer, what the hell? You're worried about rolefishing and then attempt to preempt it with this? This makes no sense!

Well now that I know Miller without extra powers to "compensate" is a thing, I'm more neutral on you than "you have something more you're hiding".

As for who's scummy, the only person I've gotten any real "I'm not town" vibes from is Elieson, but not quite enough to vote for him. Mancer was a horrible hypocrite, but that in itself isn't scum play, as long as the behavior stops. I still think element claiming is a good idea, however, maybe not at this time. When we get later into the game, maybe, but not now.

This post makes me really uneasy, because it says a lot about Mancer, and doesn't elaborate on Elieson, who seems to be a "I'm not town" read (which of itself makes me uneasy because that's a great way of weaseling out of calling someone scum outright).

Would it make sense for Serious Bananas to share his character? The rules only say that elements and roles are important, and he's already revealed those. Revealing his character has no downside I can see, and might help us identify scum if someone else claims the same character.

NO. It provides minimal benefit to the town (we're not using this to drive a lynch right now), while giving the mafia more information.

Elie, okay, I did in fact miss the fact that you said later that the part about Mancer was sarcasm. My apologies. Doesn't change the fact that I said nothing about wincons and stuff like you're saying. All I said was that it's a possibility that the mafia have a role that would benefit from knowing people's alignments. And again, if my role was related to elements like you suggest, and I were mafia, why would I discourage element-claiming?

And now I actually am going to say something about wincons because I'm not sure if Slayer just made a big derp or a scumslip, but

My wincon states that town is Team Avatar, so either you glanced over your role PM really quickly and didn't retain the fact that it's highly unlikely for the Avatar team to be scum, or you're scum and don't know that the town is literally called Team Avatar.

Because you wouldn't want to draw attention to yourself? WIFOM? Those are two reasons that pop off the top of my head. Also, the colors make it kind of hard to see.

Well then, this makes our job a lot easier.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Slayer

Either Slayer is telling the truth and we're just lynching somebody who's going to side with the mafia in LYLO for an easy win, or he's lying and he's scum. Either way, I have no qualms with lynching Slayer. He should probably also fullclaim his character right away to prove that he's actually a Survivor and not scum trying to bullshit. If he was scum and given a character fake, it would probably be someone who would likely be a member of the town, not someone who would likely be independent.

For the new players: Survivor is a third-party role that wins if it is alive at the end of the game. So a common (and probably optimal) strategy for survivors during LYLO/MYLO is to side with the mafia and win a joint victory with them.

I do NOT like this. Immediately voting a third-party gives both town and mafia a chance to jump on a wagon, which in turn gives the town less information to work with D2 (in terms of who voted what). Also, with this kind of vote, I'd be inclined to give the game the equivalent of a middle finger, just to shoot town's chances on the way out.

Yeah... When I get home I'll probably be voting for slayer. I'd rather vote out a confirmed third party than rl and most likely

hit a townie. We do still have 2 more days, though, so maybe something better will turn up.

No, it's not going to be a random lynch. We'll get information, which is very valuable.

I'd prefer that a vig prove their role by shooting Slayer tonight. Dayvig would be nice, too, but they're far less common.

FtP's latest posts don't make me feel much better. After the element thing, it feels like he's trying to push things without committing to them.

##Unvote

##Vote: FtP

Would like Shinori/Marth to post more, 'cause their current content is really weak.

[Zanarkin]

I'd rather not get shot thank you.

[eclipse]

I'd rather not get shot thank you.

Yeah, I know it goes against your win condition, but so does getting lynched D1. I'd rather make some use out of you.

[riariadne]

Agree that hypothetical vigilante should probably just shoot slayer tonight. Though I question he's vanilla survivor, that would be pretty lame.

Rein feels like a background presence imo. Why not vote Mancer in #68? Also, what more could Slayer have given that would've changed your opinion?

If Slayer had a good reason for somehow not know this (unlikely) I would probably have passed it up as a mistake. We've had dumber reading skills failures in the past.

Not voting Mancer in 68 was because I thought his miller claim sounded plausible. Pretty stupid in retrospect.

[Zanarkin]

Yeah, I know it goes against your win condition, but so does getting lynched D1. I'd rather make some use out of you.

When there could be far more use out of me (an extra vote). If i were to agree to work with you guys, the mafia could target me but if they do, they'll waste their night phase. Right now it is in my interest to join town due to the high possibility of you people just outright killing me.