Shipping Mafia - Rule 9a invoked for universal loss

[Grace]

Elie: you're already walking on eggshells balanced on spears; I'd watch your step.

[Grace]

also in other news I don't want to lynch SB or Shinori (iirc they are the largest wagons)

shinori.iso didn't change a damn opinion.

SB.iso makes me wonder how the fuck there's a wagon on him.

from quicktopic: done last night when I did iso's

[Kay]

sd;lfkjasdljfhaskjdhf why are people not remembering my earlier spiel about taking responsibility for RVS actions my god

We are well out of RVS. What is your point then?

The point is that there is no reason to be setting out to discuss RVS votes. Not taking responsibility for RVS votes is bad, yeah, but wanting to waste time discussing someone voting for their friend over something totally outside of the game is just silly. There's real stuff to talk about now.

Elie: you're already walking on eggshells balanced on spears; I'd watch your step.

Not sure what you mean by this.

[Grace]

The point is that there is no reason to be setting out to discuss RVS votes. Not taking responsibility for RVS votes is bad, yeah, but wanting to waste time discussing someone voting for their friend over something totally outside of the game is just silly. There's real stuff to talk about now.

I had nothing else I could really push, so I decided to address them then to see what reactions I would get

Not sure what you mean by this.

I really didn't like his case on me because it reeks of opportunism, but I'm waiting for his rebuttal before I possibly shift my vote there

[charlie_]

Is that all you have to say Kay?

[Shinori]

Why has Kay not really done anything but push me? She's made very few comments about other people that didn't involve me.

[BBM]

I'll wait for Elie's rebuttal to Manix to make a judgement there, but Manix, IIRC when you placed your vote on Strege it was mainly a prodvote. Do you actually find him scummy enough to lynch?

Looking at Kay's posts, I don't really like them. In the first one, she simultaneously attacked both me and Shinori, when we were arguing with each other at the time, with no consideration for why that might be a bus. She called my arguments nonsense, but then voted Shinori for not reacting to them properly? Then when she attacks Shinori next, she basically uses more or less the exact same arguments as me, so it's rather odd that she would call my arguments about his contradiction there nonsense.

[charlie_]

Grass, I saw you after I claimed - not removing your vote, or at least acknowledging the claim?

[Elieson]

Elieson, on 07 May 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

What's with this being painted as a "defense", Manix? This is shouting MISREP to me, especially during an early RVS stage like this.

Elie it's like you didn't read. I thought it was a defense of Ether and you don't have to agree with me.

I'm posting my thoughts on something I wasn't around for. I really don't think there should be a problem with it, or would you rather I completely ignore everything that happened up until my posting.

Quote

Note these posts in order; BBM is certain that people don't have alignments pre-game, and Manix is unsure of it. I feel like one of these might be a slip, more likely Manix than BBM due to wording (yes I'm the wording Nazi I know).

And did you even read my justification? Stop pushing bullshit.

Your justification? As in, one nondescript sentence in a skype log that doesn't seem to mean much of anything other than explaining your "hunch" on the situation? Yes, I read that, and I wasn't really impressed by it. Hence, my vote.

Quote

More Manix fun. Is this really something that needs to be called out so early in the game? It's been almost one Day phase and you're already calling potshots as if you're the unanimously agreed on town-leader or something.

Did I ever say I was? ffs Elie you're not helping your case here. I can still try to be decisive even if I'm not agreed on as town, because that's the cornerstone of solid play.

I'll give you this; I overlooked Xinn's call for a Vig shot that happened 2 pages earlier, and should probably have directed this thought at him instead. However, regarding your decisiveness, I'm still not seeing it.

Regardless, I am probably building a mountain out of a molehill regarding this vig thing then, as I didn't even notice the earlier call for it.

Quote

He is (I've counted at least 4 instances) backing off of anything he says and any finger he points pretty much with one or two replies from his target,

Source Your Shit please

Backs off against Against Grass- http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=39840&view=findpost&p=2384918

Pulls random point Against Blitz- http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=39840&view=findpost&p=2384961 (This one is weird because it's more of a "Look at this guys, I brought it up first".

Backs off Against Grass Again- http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=39840&view=findpost&p=2385250

After his early game case regarding a slip on BBM, Manix has unvoted and comes back to attack Shinori on a similar topic regarding a slip and BBM- http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=39840&view=findpost&p=2386244

Backs off against scorri- http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=39840&view=findpost&p=2387249

Quote

IF everyone can so easily dismiss your scumhunting cases, I question your ability to actually be hunting for scum.

This is shitlogic and you know it. Why aren't you getting on Kay's Shinori case then for the same reasons? (Or for that matter, Shinori for dismissing it so quickly but that's another story)

Because you did it many times and with less effort, it stuck out. If I'm looking in a shopping mall for wildlife that shouldn't be there, and I spot the elephant before the jaguar, I'm gonna say "Hey, look at that elephant" first. I've got mixed thoughts on Shinori, but they're more clear when I think about you.

Xinux Xinstar, on 07 May 2013 - 2:28 PM, said:

If you're going to call Manix out for wanting Cam hypothetically vigged if he keeps the apathy and doesn't give enough content to work with, have in mind I've suggested the same at the end of this post, so I'd have disagree with that being a stance to try to 'call the potshots', and wonder what your read on me is with that in mind.

PSA: attn, Elieson

This is why your point against me is shit. You chose to call me out but not Xinny, and because of that it feels like you're grasping for reasons to find me scummy.

Addressed above yo

I have a huge number of nullreads, so I have to drop the bar of suspicion)

Does this have anything to do with the indecisiveness that I'm supposed to go out and source? Please tell me it does.

So, I'm also pretty sure that Manix isn't even voting for a player that he feels is scummy right now.

P-Edit

Woah, I'm walking on eggshells? Did I suddenly become scummy enough to warrant a vote, yet not actually receive your vote? How the hell am I even walking on eggshells when you're the one who's got hardly anything concrete as far as reads?

[Grace]

I'll wait for Elie's rebuttal to Manix to make a judgement there, but Manix, IIRC when you placed your vote on Strege it was mainly a prodvote. Do you actually find him scummy enough to lynch?

also to whoever asked about my vote change: I'm actually leaving it there because I still don't like Strege's lack of content and the content he does have doesn't strike me as town or scum, but it's the best I've got (I have a huge number of nullreads, so I have to drop the bar of suspicion)

Bold added for emphasis. I'd lynch him right now. He's leaning slightly closer to scum and I could see possible scum!Strege being more apprehensive about posting so yeah (he promised better activity and didn't deliver much so :/)

[CT075]

##unvote

i don't like empty unvotes but it's all i've got right now

[Kay]

Why has Kay not really done anything but push me? She's made very few comments about other people that didn't involve me.

Uh, isn't that what I was just doing?

I'll wait for Elie's rebuttal to Manix to make a judgement there, but Manix, IIRC when you placed your vote on Strege it was mainly a prodvote. Do you actually find him scummy enough to lynch?

Looking at Kay's posts, I don't really like them. In the first one, she simultaneously attacked both me and Shinori, when we were arguing with each other at the time, with no consideration for why that might be a bus. She called my arguments nonsense, but then voted Shinori for not reacting to them properly? Then when she attacks Shinori next, she basically uses more or less the exact same arguments as me, so it's rather odd that she would call my arguments about his contradiction there nonsense.

No, the way it looked like you were accusing him based on not wanting to reveal an alignment he didn't know was nonsense. I didn't mean to say that everything you said about him was.

Also, no, I don't particularly think it's a bus, but I do think it's likely that one of you is scum.

I voted BBM because I don't think I can read him well, and on N0 he was oddly confident that alignments weren't determined yet.

It seems like we're not in agreement about whether or not anyone knew their alignment in N0. I'm thinking that no one did, but I don't know how to set up a game of mafia so that's not worth a whole bunch. I do regret playing N0 with that assumption, since now I don't have good logs to reference if they end up being relevant.

Why are you suspicious of BBM for making an assumption that you made, too?

[Grassbridger]

SB started pinging for me here, which was the post where he voted for me, but that wasn't what seemed scummy. As I explained previously, his argument for Shinori being town only lists scummy things that Shinori did. No justification there for why Shinori seems town.

1. If you looked at my responses later, I said he looked more town than he did (not anymore though, last page in particular gives off bad vibes from him.

Then there's his justification for voting me--I guess I can see why it might seem weird that I unvoted him while arguing with him, except I also explained very clearly why I was unvoting him: his self-QT-quote seemed genuine and very town, so, despite my suspicions, I switched my vote.

2. Scum can make a single post that seems really genuine and townie, and town can have scummy reactions to things. So Manix looking town in one point outweighed your previous scumread on him?

Next he misrepped my vote on Xinnidy:

"The reason for his Xinn vote was that he didn't know why she was voting for Shinori"

No, I was pretty sure I knew, but I wanted Xinn to say it. It was early enough that there wasn't even any real pressure to the vote, just a note that I was serious.

"Seems kind of like Grass is coming to Shinori's defense with the wording of it as well."

Nope. I just wasn't. You can interpret my wording as you please, but I wasn't.

3. Then whats the point of asking a question that you already know the answer to? And tat still looked like you were defending shinori to me.

The rest of that post consists of calling me defensive as many times as possible. If he is in fact scum, this would be explained by wanting to make me look bad/defensive.

Then, a few posts later (in response to me I think), he claims that Shinori is improving "from posts like this [link]" but again doesn't actually show the good side, just that Shinori was bad at one point. Then he claims again that I was defending Shinori. (If you think he's town, what's the big deal with that exactly?) I wasn't defending him; SB was reading way too much into one sentence.

4. Covered above, and I'm pretty sure I said that Shinori wasn't a townread in a previous post. Also reading deeply into what people say is kind of a thing I do. Blame my English teacher.

He accuses me of bandwagoning on him (not at all true; voting for someone who already has votes isn't necessarily bandwagoning and there were no votes on him that were even close to recent) and asks for my Shinori read.

5. Looking back, Strege's vote on me felt a lot closer to the time than it was, but the first time you really mentioned me was in that post, after I'd already amounted some votes.

Then there's all the stuff about Ether, which I get a nullread out of. And the rest of the posts are not very important, except for his offer to claim.

6.So none of my scumhunting or anything else has been worthwhile, since you seem to just be ignoring it.

1. Here's all you actually said about Shinori after that point:

"He improved from sitting there being useless with posts like this when there's genuine discussion going on. Shinori's attacked me with bad logic before as town (see Awakening, where apparently I was parked on someone for all phase when I'd only just subbed in a day ago) and I only said a bit. That's not to say I'm not watching him though."

The first sentence is more of the same "Shinori's good but here's bad things he did", I have no idea how the second sentence is relevant, and the third sentence indicates that you're suspicious, which really doesn't mean much in Mafia.

2. Yes, at the time. Not anymore.

3. I was poking someone who hadn't voted since RVS... honestly it was 5am when I did that and that seemed like a pretty good reason.

4. Yes, covered above. Also, you have said it seemed like I was defending Shinori; I have said this is not the case; you can weigh my previous word choice with my subsequent denials and make up your own mind but let's not discuss that point any more since we're just contradicting each other.

5. Fair enough. That did seem more like a reaction to being voted than anything else, and maybe I shouldn't have brought it up again.

6. What scumhunting? "All your scumhunting" since the post where you voted me is your Ether post, pretty much. You also make a one-line post directed at Strege and another directed at Shinori, but no real impact. The rest of your posts are logic or devoid of game content. (That includes your answer to Manix's question and your oopsie about BBM's links; it wasn't bad to post those, they just don't contribute to the game.)

Anyway I get a nullread off your Ether post because I can't decide if your logic is good or not and just don't have a fix on Ether at all. I'm not ignoring that scumhunting, I just don't know what to make of it.

All in all, I'd be ok with a lynch of anyone who currently has at least 2 votes, except Shinori who reads town to me. (Now I guess I am defending him...) I'd only actually vote for SB or Manix at this point, but Strege or Ether being scum wouldn't surprise me. I'd be surprised if Shinori was scum.

[charlie_]

Would lynch Grass, Strege, Ether or Shinori. Possibly Kay. I can't properly read 6 dudes due to inactivity, hopefully we get an extension.

Not liking Grass' last few posts particularly.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grass

On that note, goodnight all.

[Grace]

HEY ELIE

Your guess is as good as mine because I don't know if the mafia had their alignments (see role pm template in first post)

this is my justification, not whatever else you said

re backing off: reads change ffs. you can still push townreads for content, you don't always have to push scum.

Backs off against Against Grass

what. I don't even understand why this post is being brought up

Pulls random point Against Blitz- (This one is weird because it's more of a "Look at this guys, I brought it up first".

again, what? Shinori brought up the thing first not me, so what's your point?

Backs off Against Grass Again-

I was starting to townread him at that point due to his reactionary vote, that's why I backed off. also you conveniently ignored the post straight after it which explained exactly that

After his early game case regarding a slip on BBM, Manix has unvoted and comes back to attack Shinori on a similar topic regarding a slip and BBM

pushuing for content on a town-null read. nothing to see here. I wasn't even finding him remotely scummy for it (see other actions in thread, i never said I found him scummy either), I just wanted an explanation.

Backs off against scorri-

This is the only one that I will remotely cede to you, but I still find her a bit scummy but need more content to decide

tl;dr you're grasping hard Elie. now you complain about me not having reads, but all you have is a tunnel on me. hypocrisy much?

##Dayvig: Elie

##Unvote

##Vote: Elieson

[Grace]

i am super tempted to claim to get protection on me tonight for my action because i really wanna do it

[Grace]

and if you say that's an OMGUS (tip: it isn't) you're next

[Grace]

there are no prizes as to what role i'm softclaiming

[Shinori]

Hint manix is vig.

[Grace]

Hint manix is vig.

still no prize for you

safeguard/watcher w/e on me tonight, doc on SB

we're gonna do this shit (asking for the policy shot on Cam was a softclaim)

[Elieson]

ITT: Me responding to questions directed at me = tunneling.

I'll brb giving my girl a bath

[Shinori]

still no prize for you

safeguard/watcher w/e on me tonight, doc on SB

we're gonna do this shit (asking for the policy shot on Cam was a softclaim)

Well fuck you Ima condemn you.

Jkilu

At the moment I don't know. Watchers have been scum plenty but since I'm still more gut based on SB I'd probably prefer to lynch Kay > SB.

[Grace]

for what it's worth I was considering claiming straight out at daystart so I can go all town leader on this shit, but decided against it because of redirecting roles

also seeing as how i'm mostly claimed anyway,

Elie: you're already walking on eggshells balanced on spears; I'd watch your step.

hint shipping partner

[Grace]

ITT: Me responding to questions directed at me = tunneling.

you have no other scumreads (lest I can see, tell me if i'm wrong), hence, likely tunnel.

[Grace]

i'm gonna be firing every night btw

at the rate things are going grass/scorri look like good n1 targets

cam/strege may also be good policy shots (strege definitely should have said something by now, something isn't right)

- ed1 from quicktopic

having reminded myself of that yeah something still doesn't feel right with Strege, as previously explained