Shipping Mafia - Rule 9a invoked for universal loss

[scorri]

I would love it if night phase was extended, I've also recently got some not so great news about family stuff. As for hammer, sure.

Manix: If you need to talk, poke me. I understand what you're going through.

[BBM]

I don't really care either way about either of the options, since an early hammer won't give us an earlier flip with no lynch.

[eclipse]

As I've heard nothing else. . .PHASE END

It's now OC, and I'll figure out phase end time later.

[eclipse]

1. Phase ends in 13 minutes.

2. I might be getting flayed in an ARAM. Please be patient.

[eclipse]

PHASE END

Everything seems normal this morning. . .everything, except for the lack of one person. His skull has been bashed in, and a lone white feather decorates his corpse. Cam mumbles something about a valkyrie, as Grassbridger reads off the deceased's role PM.

Dear BBM,

You are Darius. You are no stranger to being relocated, as that's what half your life has been. Perhaps a good partner would help with your current depression, as Villnore isn't nice this time of year. . .

During the night, you may reply to your role PM with Night X - Stand-up comedy with <PLAYER>. You'll attempt to try a new comedy routine with <PLAYER>. This will take the entire night, and <PLAYER> will be unable to use their night action.

*snip*

You are allied with the town, and win when all threats to your side have been neutralized.

You turn to one another and begin discussing who could be behind eclipse's favorite CotP character's demise.

It is now Day 3! Day 3 ends on 5/19 at 10:45 PM HST. Have at it!

EDIT: I won the ARAM

Edited May 17, 2013 by eclipse

[Grace]

and that came as no surprise since bbm claimed to a scum member

also since I'm the best at reading Role PM's i had to be told that I was actually only a 1-shot vig. oops.

so we got two options. lynch cam or scumhunt and lynch someone else. take your picks.

[eclipse]

DEAD PLAYERS: In your role PM, please reply if you want some early flavor.

[Elieson]

Based on the incredible OC content from overnight, I'm thinking that an Orc confirm would help out quite a bit, though I dunno how he works. Does cam pik a target during the day and it flips upon lynching?

[Grace]

Cam ain't an orc elie. Orcs are elsewhere.

[Grace]

anyway i think the better option is to independently scumhunt, as much as that worked yesterday

i'll contribute my part when i'm not so tired (read as: I really should be asleep right now)

[Elieson]

I thought he did. Dammit my notes are wrong then.

Backtrack, ho.

[BBM]

what is this

[scorri]

Ok, so, some thoughts.

I would prefer to not lynch Cam if we can all agree on someone else being more scummy. Then, three oracles is pretty strong for town. Even if we end up not having a cop, three orcs a watcher two vigs and a roleblock plus whatever else we have (hunter?) is a pretty strong team. As such, I'm inclined to believe that one of the orc claims is probably false. Past that, I still think Strege is scum and here's why:

D1: Doesn't produce a lot of content at first and then when he finally does, it''s purely tunneling on me and SB. Well, SB turned up dead, so we see how that turned out. Then, at the end of D1, Strege is all set to be lynched when at the last minute, despite protest from some players, the wagon gets switched over to Kay. A wagon which includes at least one flipped scum.

N1: I send him a PM asking him why he thinks I'm scum and then also some stuff about shipping partners, but I was doing that with everyone. The point is, his response to me, which Manix can verify since both Strege and I sent him this, includes the fact that he is now feeling better about me. He does a lot of saying that maybe things were a misunderstanding and that maybe he was tunneling, etc. I then make some comment about wanting to find out people's shipping partners because information (at this point, I was looking for Kay's partner because I wanted to try and figure out what happens if your shipping partner died) He immediately asked me about my role, trying to see if my role had to do with shipping pairings. At that point, I dismissed it as newbie asking about roles but looking back, it also might have been subtle role fishing.

D2: Now, not a lot happened D2, but the main thing that he did that stood out to me was this:

Also, I have a question. Assuming that I am not mafia, would it make sense for mafia!scorri to ask me to claim when she did? Yeah, I'm still on that train. This is actually a question that I don't have the experience to answer to my own satisfaction, though.

Now, at this point, he doesn't have a vote down. He hasn't said anything really about his reads. He hasn't called anyone scummy, hasn't really said anything except the discussion about people turning SK. But then at the end of his post, he just drops the above. To me, this reads as an attempt to see if other people will agree that I'm scummy so that he can then put a vote down on me and not get any negative attention for it. He's subtly attempting to get other people to view me as scummy without actually committing himself to it. So. All of this combined has led me to once again:

##Vote:Strege

[Strege]

Now, at this point, he doesn't have a vote down. He hasn't said anything really about his reads. He hasn't called anyone scummy, hasn't really said anything except the discussion about people turning SK. But then at the end of his post, he just drops the above. To me, this reads as an attempt to see if other people will agree that I'm scummy so that he can then put a vote down on me and not get any negative attention for it. He's subtly attempting to get other people to view me as scummy without actually committing himself to it. So. All of this combined has led me to once again:

##Vote:Strege

I wouldn't fish for approval because Shinori and Manix have already expressed some level of uncertainty about you on D1. I also asked BBM about you N1 because I was afraid I was tunneling and he was middling on the issue (actually, he thought your points about me were also pretty legitimate, which only made me less confident in my scumread). At this point nothing I say about you can pass without scrutiny (see Grassbridger saying I'm tunneling based on my question and your own responses) and if I had intended to vote for you at that point I would have just done it.

Preempting the criticism that this post doesn't explicitly state my opinion of you: I think you're kind of scummy, but less so that I did at the end of D1. Your activity has been pretty good; I suppose you prompting me for my reasons for scumreading you in a PM and then not defending yourself is null, since that can either represent town confidence or perpetuation of this "feud" thing, which would be convenient for scum; I think the claim request is also null; I still don't like you tunneling me (you haven't read anyone's behaviour as scummy but mine since D1, and I thought you were tunneling even then).

I'm not fond of just lynching Cam, but I need to reread his ISO. Either way it seems kind of lazy to pass up the opportunity to reveal more information through scumhunting.

[scorri]

You say you don't fish for approval, but then what was that question? Asking other people if this is a thing scum could do is pointless. If you find me scummy for it, do it. Here's the thing. If it's a thing town would likely do, then it's probably something scum can do. Nothing you say should ever pass without scrutiny. You should always have people inspecting what you're saying.

I didn't defend myself in PM because I felt that you were just rehashing your arguments from D1 which I had already defended myself against.

You call me scummy for not giving opinions on anyone but you, and yet here we are, D3 and I have literally no idea what your thoughts on anyone but me are. I've talked with people in OC about some of my feelings, but here they are for you.

I think that if the scum team is four people it's Xin, you, Shinori, and Elie.

If the scum team is three people I think it's Xin, Shinori, and you.

This is at least largely via PoE, but there's also at least some gut feelings and just general scum vibes off of posts/interactions.

So. What are your thoughts on people that aren't me? If you still find me scummy, why aren't you voting me?

[Balcerzak]

I got kicked in the arse for my atrocious activity, and basically dropping the ball all over D2.

Vanilla scum claiming vanilla town seems like the safest move for them personally, unless I'm missing something.

You're missing something. With at least one watcher in play, if vanilla scum claims vanilla town, and they're performing the kill the jig is up. I don't think any scum would claim vanilla. Not in this game.

Sadly for this reason, I'm not inclined to believe you're scum either, and since town leader seemed to be inching this way, I'll

##Vote: Cam for now.

Gonna try to keep up a little more motivation here.

[Grassbridger]

##Vote Cam

I still want to hear your scumreads, your thoughts on the game, and so forth. I find you scummier than Strege, although not by much.

By the way, Cam, did you ever talk with your shipping partner and confirm who it was? (I'm not asking who it is.)

[CT075]

i've been sort of swamped irl so i didn't even have any oc last night

[Strege]

You say you don't fish for approval, but then what was that question? Asking other people if this is a thing scum could do is pointless. If you find me scummy for it, do it. Here's the thing. If it's a thing town would likely do, then it's probably something scum can do. Nothing you say should ever pass without scrutiny. You should always have people inspecting what you're saying.

I didn't defend myself in PM because I felt that you were just rehashing your arguments from D1 which I had already defended myself against.

You call me scummy for not giving opinions on anyone but you, and yet here we are, D3 and I have literally no idea what your thoughts on anyone but me are. I've talked with people in OC about some of my feelings, but here they are for you.

I think that if the scum team is four people it's Xin, you, Shinori, and Elie.

If the scum team is three people I think it's Xin, Shinori, and you.

This is at least largely via PoE, but there's also at least some gut feelings and just general scum vibes off of posts/interactions.

So. What are your thoughts on people that aren't me? If you still find me scummy, why aren't you voting me?

I asked how the event can be interpreted. I knew it was possible town behaviour, and I was asking in order to differentiate between two cases (or anything between them on the spectrum of likelihood): scum might do it, so it doesn't signal anything, or scum wouldn't do it, so it signals that you are town. Examples of both cases exist. The fact that the latter case existed in my mind made the question worth asking.

Scrutiny being ideal is not relevant to my hypothetical motivations -- the reality is that subjects vary in the degree of attention they get. Since I'm under a significant level of suspicion, partly from my interactions with you, it would be extremely ill-considered for scum!me to try to pull a subtle and, if discovered, obviously scummy move against you when I could have just voted for you if I wanted to. I chose not to vote for you because I don't think it would apply more pressure than our interactions already do, and the option of lynching you doesn't look like it's on the table, so it doesn't accomplish anything. The reasons I didn't vote anyone at all is because I've been lazy.

I'm quite suspicious of Elie's behavior -- my thoughts about his argumentation D1 stand, and lately his misreading has blanked most if not all of his activity in terms of usefulness to town. I'd really like to hear his opinions on things.

Grassbridger seems fairly wagony and this post is concerning to me in the context of the rest of his D2 activity. Even ignoring Cam's observation that Grassbridger's vote on him was sheepy (because it would be such an obvious sheep that I'm torn on how to read it), his reason for voting Cam was quite weak, and the later post implies that that was the best he had. I initially agreed with BBM's analysis but I can see scum!GB expecting more activity later and not worrying about it so I'm treating his interaction with Xinnidy as null rather than town. I'd ask that he express his reasons for thinking Cam and I are scum.

My vote seems most useful here: ##Vote: Elieson

[Grace]

i've been sort of swamped irl so i didn't even have any oc last night

not entirely true cam :P

anyway I'm standing by my thoughts that Shinori/Strege are a team, whether it be town or otherwise. right now i'm really not sure what to think about them but i'll get to it. gut right now is actually thinking they're both scum but eh

[scorri]

Manix: Thoughts on my theory that we have at least one scum oracle?

[Grace]

Manix: Thoughts on my theory that we have at least one scum oracle?

it's possible.

honestly at this point it's worth just scumhunting without roles because it's not helping us at all really by considering them

[Grassbridger]

Ok Strege, let's do this.

I asked how the event can be interpreted. I knew it was possible town behaviour, and I was asking in order to differentiate between two cases (or anything between them on the spectrum of likelihood): scum might do it, so it doesn't signal anything, or scum wouldn't do it, so it signals that you are town. Examples of both cases exist. The fact that the latter case existed in my mind made the question worth asking.

You should be able to interpret the event on your own, without help from other players. Think through whether it would make sense for scum rather than asking other players. It looks scummy for you to ask, because scum!you has to think about "is my scumhunting believable to other players, even though I know I'm hunting town".

Scrutiny being ideal is not relevant to my hypothetical motivations -- the reality is that subjects vary in the degree of attention they get. Since I'm under a significant level of suspicion, partly from my interactions with you, it would be extremely ill-considered for scum!me to try to pull a subtle and, if discovered, obviously scummy move against you when I could have just voted for you if I wanted to.

This is bad reasoning. A subtle move, by definition, is one that is trying not to be discovered. You also admit that your behavior can be interpreted as scummy.

I chose not to vote for you because I don't think it would apply more pressure than our interactions already do, and the option of lynching you doesn't look like it's on the table, so it doesn't accomplish anything. The reasons I didn't vote anyone at all is because I've been lazy.

Lynching scorri wasn't on the table because nobody was voting for her. If you had voted for her, particularly early, maybe that would have changed... Lazy, eh? I'll come back to that.

I'm quite suspicious of Elie's behavior -- my thoughts about his argumentation D1 stand, and lately his misreading has blanked most if not all of his activity in terms of usefulness to town. I'd really like to hear his opinions on things.

Ok, reads. Reads are good, even if you don't go so far as to call him scum or even scummy, and you pick a player who was named as a possible scum target by someone attacking you.

Now down to the nitty-gritty

Grassbridger seems fairly wagony and this post is concerning to me in the context of the rest of his D2 activity.

Uh, excuse me? You mean the one where I wanted to lynch someone who I thought was scum, rather than letting them live another day? And that D2 activity you're referring to is... activity, unlike many, many other people in this game. I fail to see how it's troublesome. It's not like there were posts to scumhunt on, and I didn't feel like revealing my OC after N1.

Even ignoring Cam's observation that Grassbridger's vote on him was sheepy (because it would be such an obvious sheep that I'm torn on how to read it), his reason for voting Cam was quite weak, and the later post implies that that was the best he had.

Yeah Cam's "observation" was BS. There was one other vote on him when I voted for him, and it was early. I then stuck by the vote when others preferred NL, and I'm back there today. I'm not sheeping on Cam, I think he's scummy. And part of it is that he's not doing anything in the game, he just has his head under a rock unless he needs to defend himself. So I find his near-total lack of reads--and content in general--scummy. And because it's his lack of content, that's not something I can really elaborate on.

(And yeah I couldn't be bothered to explain that earlier because I thought it was pretty obviously not sheepy, and Cam didn't actually contribute anything else with that post, not even asking me to elaborate why I voted for him, so I didn't feel it merited a response.)

I initially agreed with BBM's analysis but I can see scum!GB expecting more activity later and not worrying about it so I'm treating his interaction with Xinnidy as null rather than town. I'd ask that he express his reasons for thinking Cam and I are scum.

If you want to call me out on being wagony, probably not best to bring up my interaction with Xinnidy, cause people were all over me for that one.

I think I covered my reasons for Cam above. As for you--you've tunneled on scorri a bit, you've had some bad reasoning, asked some odd questions, and said some things that seem just a bit off... nothing you do seems very town and a few things you do seem kind of scummy.

You attacked me, but you didn't point out a single way you thought I was scummy. Seems like you might know I'm not scum... If you think I'm scum then go ahead and say it. Don't hide behind ambivalent language.

[Grassbridger]

Oh I forgot for the end of this:

##Unvote (Cam)

##Vote Strege

[Strege]

Ok Strege, let's do this.

You should be able to interpret the event on your own, without help from other players. Think through whether it would make sense for scum rather than asking other players. It looks scummy for you to ask, because scum!you has to think about "is my scumhunting believable to other players, even though I know I'm hunting town".

I disagree with that expectation as a code of conduct in general, but there's no use going into it right now. Specifically to this game, I have expressed both why I thought the question was important and that I had tried to solve it but was not confident in my resolution -- in part because of a bias I perceived toward interpreting scorri's actions as scummy. Under those circumstances I valued the impartiality of my scumhunting more than my appearance to the thread, which may not have been the best move. Assuming that I didn't try to resolve the question myself is pretty uncharitable though.

This is bad reasoning. A subtle move, by definition, is one that is trying not to be discovered. You also admit that your behavior can be interpreted as scummy.

Subtlety implies risk of discovery. I had an avenue that didn't carry that same risk. What I'm saying is that it doesn't make a lot of sense that I would make the decision scorri thought I did.

Lynching scorri wasn't on the table because nobody was voting for her. If you had voted for her, particularly early, maybe that would have changed... Lazy, eh? I'll come back to that.

That seems fair. There were a few opportunities where I probably should have voted for her -- I'm actually surprised that I never have.

Ok, reads. Reads are good, even if you don't go so far as to call him scum or even scummy, and you pick a player who was named as a possible scum target by someone attacking you.

Okay, I think he's scummy. I don't think this is a very good point on its own though, since you could make a similar argument no matter which person I had voted. I expressed my suspicions of Elieson on D1 and they haven't gone away because, well, he hasn't really done much since then.

Now down to the nitty-gritty

Uh, excuse me? You mean the one where I wanted to lynch someone who I thought was scum, rather than letting them live another day? And that D2 activity you're referring to is... activity, unlike many, many other people in this game. I fail to see how it's troublesome. It's not like there were posts to scumhunt on, and I didn't feel like revealing my OC after N1.

Activity doesn't mean much on its own when it's mostly speculation -- that the environment was not very conducive to it is mostly irrelevant. It could mean anything, so I'm taking it as null. Your post on Cam didn't convey a strong reason for suspicion and in the later post you want to lynch him, which is what I was getting at.

Yeah Cam's "observation" was BS. There was one other vote on him when I voted for him, and it was early. I then stuck by the vote when others preferred NL, and I'm back there today. I'm not sheeping on Cam, I think he's scummy. And part of it is that he's not doing anything in the game, he just has his head under a rock unless he needs to defend himself. So I find his near-total lack of reads--and content in general--scummy. And because it's his lack of content, that's not something I can really elaborate on.

(And yeah I couldn't be bothered to explain that earlier because I thought it was pretty obviously not sheepy, and Cam didn't actually contribute anything else with that post, not even asking me to elaborate why I voted for him, so I didn't feel it merited a response.)

I find this more convincing. Which burst of activity did you find suspicious before though?

If you want to call me out on being wagony, probably not best to bring up my interaction with Xinnidy, cause people were all over me for that one.

Would you mind elaborating on this as well?

I think I covered my reasons for Cam above. As for you--you've tunneled on scorri a bit, you've had some bad reasoning, asked some odd questions, and said some things that seem just a bit off... nothing you do seems very town and a few things you do seem kind of scummy.

You attacked me, but you didn't point out a single way you thought I was scummy. Seems like you might know I'm not scum... If you think I'm scum then go ahead and say it. Don't hide behind ambivalent language.

I was asked for my thoughts on people, and my understanding is that townreads are useless, so it's safe to assume from my comments on both you and Elie that I think you're fairly scummy. I didn't use the word "scummy" because I think it describes my feelings and can be used to describe intent, but does a poor job otherwise of describing the subject of discussion or my reasons for suspicion.